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Author Topic: SW - Episode 7: Mary Sue wakes up but there's no coffee. RAGE.  (Read 300632 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #1470 on: October 13, 2016, 08:44:36 AM

Yeah, I think given what we know about Sith, and how the apprentice is EXPECTED to kill their master, making Vader into a guy who is trying to kill the Emperor would be perfect.

eldaec
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Reply #1471 on: October 13, 2016, 09:05:30 AM

Pretty sure Vader explictly expressed a preference for destroying the Emperor in the second film.

That said, the last thing star wars needs is to add more to the core Vader story - not least as it forces the prequeks and the character of Anakin back to the fore.

If they want to use Vader - best way is as an implacable force to run from, not to give him another arc. The way Rebels used him.

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jgsugden
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Reply #1472 on: October 13, 2016, 11:31:01 AM

New Hope, Empire and Jedi originate, with much change, from Lucas' original vision.  Everything in them is part of "the plan", even if the plan evolved as it was told.

Going back now, decades later, and telling people there was something else going on, something not part of the original plan, would piss them off.  For comparison, let's say they released Iron Man IV in 2020.  In it, Tony Stark reveals that Dr. Strange came to him prior to the events of Iron Man I and warned him that Obadiah Stane was working against him, but the only way to stop and save the word was to get caught in an ambush, create the Iron Man armor, etc...  Stupid, huh?  Saying Vader let Rebels steal the plans, Vader wasn't trying to recover them, Vader wanted the Death Star destroyed, Vader let the Rebels blow it up (nearly getting killed in the process), etc... is the same level of stupidity.  Go back and watch New Hope with that theory in mind and it makes Vader as stupid as he was in prequels... (so I guess on that level it does work).

As for Vader's comments in Empire that he wanted Luke to join him to rule the galaxy by his side: They're there and would align with the story - but I think most people write that off as Vader lying to Luke when trying to seduce him.  There are countless moments where Vader could swing a lightsaber and take charge.  He doesn't do it.  He is at his weakest when he finally does strike down the Emperor, so we know it wasn't that he lacked the capability....  He was the Emperor's lap dog. 




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lamaros
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Reply #1473 on: October 13, 2016, 09:56:09 PM

I forget why I open these threads most days.
Sir T
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Reply #1474 on: October 14, 2016, 05:10:10 AM

Frankly reading that theory makes me think "EU fan wank," and you might as well say that Vader was sekretly working with the big muscley Mandeloreans to destroy the empire.

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Sky
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Reply #1475 on: October 16, 2016, 01:01:52 PM

There was so much great stuff at the core of the prequels, but it was so horribly written and shot. That's the other reason for anger about it. The new stuff is shot well, there is some fun dialogue, even if the plot is thus far apparently weaker. It was just a better movie.

So much effects wankery needed to be pulled from the prequel, from the pod racing to the gladiator arena to the ridiculous droid factory (aka flying R2 scene).

And I'm down with any added plot elements of Vader's treachery. He's a Sith. That's how they roll...when they can get away with it.
Malakili
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Reply #1476 on: October 19, 2016, 08:23:03 AM

A story about the rise of the Emperor and fall of Anakin isn't a bad idea. Nor is the broad strokes of the prequel's story. But the movies were terrible movies, and that's what mattered in the end. It's been discussed to death though, so the specifics aren't worth reiterating for the nth time.
Sir T
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Reply #1477 on: October 21, 2016, 07:25:03 AM

Its only getting brought up again becasue the internet hive mind is still sulky about losing the arguments where defended those movies to death and still wants to believe it was really right about Lucas being a misunderstood genius, so there has to be SOMETHING, ANYTHING good about those movies.

The fall of a hero is a classic story that has been told for thousands of years. It's a good story. It was done extremely badly in these movies.

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Merusk
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Reply #1478 on: October 21, 2016, 08:22:43 AM

Not the Internet hive mind hates them because nothing can stand up to the power of nostalgia and memories of being 7. The rest of the population will agree they have hammy scripts and bad direction but otherwise thought they were passable.

As I said 10 years ago and in every argument since; the kids who grew up with them don't hate them.  They still don't and I've even seen pieces defending them by 20-30 somethings.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/02/star-wars-prequel-trilogy-defense/76628934/
http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/off-topic-31/i-love-the-star-wars-prequels-472036/
http://sabotagetimes.com/tv-film/jar-jar-binks-and-9-reasons-why-the-star-wars-prequels-are-underrated

 Bitter old Gen x men will only become the boomers they hate in time. Longing for a past nobody gives a shit about and wasn't really how they remembered in the first place.

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Teleku
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Reply #1479 on: October 21, 2016, 10:17:32 AM

Bitter old Gen x men will only become the boomers they hate in time. Longing for a past nobody gives a shit about and wasn't really how they remembered in the first place.

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Venkman
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Reply #1480 on: October 21, 2016, 01:52:36 PM

As I said 10 years ago and in every argument since; the kids who grew up with them don't hate them.  They still don't and I've even seen pieces defending them by 20-30 somethings.

That's not adoration though. That's "eh, they really weren't as bad as my Gen X folks/relatives said they were", kinda forgettable, especially in the face of Harry Potter, Hunger Games, and Divergent.

Of course Ep 7 reset this, being the SW for everyone , not just the apologists, and except for the perpetually angry  wink
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Reply #1481 on: October 21, 2016, 02:06:31 PM

Those are articles, yes. However, I've encountered plenty of 20-somethings in the last 10 months of 501st stuff to say there's a good chunk who do in fact love them.

We all agree that Jar-Jar sucked, though. So there's that.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Venkman
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Reply #1482 on: October 21, 2016, 03:18:34 PM

Yea, but is it adults going to *cons as Darth Maul frothing over Leia outfits and writing fanfic only they and three others would even understand level of irrational love?

Or is it just, like, "oh I loved that movie"?

Because it's not good enough if it's not the first thing  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

In other words:

Quote
That isn't good enough!

            They have got to be so scared to miss it, so terrified!

            Now, if I were in charge,

            and I AM...

            Perhaps I can help you.

            Here's what I'd do. Grace, cue it up.

            Acid rain.

            Drug addiction.

            International terrorism.

            Freeway killers.

            Now, more than ever...

            ..we must remember the true meaning of Christmas.

            Don't miss Charles Dickens' immortal classic, "Scrooge",

            Your life might just depend on it.

Kidding aside, they get Jar Jars to our Ewoks...

potentless edit: the Scrooged quote... 'tis the season
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 03:21:50 PM by Darniaq »
Merusk
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Reply #1483 on: October 21, 2016, 09:20:23 PM

Yea, but is it adults going to *cons as Darth Maul frothing over Leia outfits and writing fanfic only they and three others would even understand level of irrational love?

Or is it just, like, "oh I loved that movie"?

The former. Plenty of Maul, Emo-Anakin, Padme players out there. Lots of love for Clones (not just the animated ones) and a number of prequel Jedi. Including folks who are really into the backstory of lame characters like Kitt Fisto (and don't laugh at the name when saying it like I do.)

There's a whole world outside of the 37-50 demographic.

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Azuredream
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Reply #1484 on: October 22, 2016, 12:09:52 PM

Merusk sounds pretty correct to me. When I was 10 me and all my friends were psyched to see Star Wars: The Phantom Menace and we thought it was awesome. When the second one came out we all talked about how awesome Yoda fighting was. Then the third was even better than the first two. It was a surprise to me to find out they were so hated later on. I read the criticisms and thought 'yeah, that's all pretty true' and yet at the same time I still don't mind watching the prequels. Probably because of the nostalgia factor.

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Venkman
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Reply #1485 on: October 23, 2016, 06:32:40 AM

Fine. Then I'll go with "these kids have no idea what a really good movie is, what happened to wanting quality?!?" then  Get off my lawn!
Sir T
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Reply #1486 on: October 23, 2016, 07:40:39 AM

It happened when the slow and careful Rapier duel of Vader and Obi Wan and the desperate and powerful Saber duel of Vader and Luke became stupid Morris dancing in the Prequels.  Get off my lawn!


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Samwise
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Reply #1487 on: October 23, 2016, 09:29:20 AM

It happened when the slow and careful Rapier duel of Vader and Obi Wan and the desperate and powerful Saber duel of Vader and Luke became stupid Morris dancing in the Prequels.  Get off my lawn!

I have never heard that comparison drawn to the prequel choreography and I love it.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #1488 on: October 23, 2016, 11:08:27 PM

Oh, this shit is ON now.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

The "Rapier duel" was honestly extremely lame.  I even remember when I saw it the first time twelve hundred years ago thinking that it was actually pretty terrible.  It had good emotional impact, but looked like too old farts who had no idea what they were doing (which it apparently was).  It also does not hold up well at all...although not formally trained in any way, I have no doubt that I could go in and slaughter either of those two, no problem.

Episode 5 and 6 had really excellent duels.  Desperate and powerful...good description.

Episode 1:  I still think the Duel of the Fates is one of my favorites.  A bit on the dancey side, but also powerful and well choreographed.  Maul was a legit badass character, and the music helped a great deal.  Motherfuckers getting punched, kicked, impaled, cut in half.

Episode 2:  Erm, not so good.  Yoda vs. Dooku was kinda cool the first time, but nah.  The rest was poodoo.

Episode 3:  Choreographed to the extreme.  Like, to a ridiculous extreme and not in a good way.  Okay the first time, seemingly more ridiculous on repeated viewings.  Obi vs. Anakin at the end was pure dance.  And it was a shame, because both the actors ended up appearing extremely talented by that point.

Episode 7:  A bit more back in the style of 5 and 6, obviously.  I am worried about what we saw out of Daisy.  For the first time she ever holds a lightsaber, fine, she's a novice, but I was never really convinced that she could have legitimately beat Driver (who did quite well).  I have to hand wave it away with a bit of "he was injured" and "her force meter was super full".  What I am saying is that she does not seem to have the natural physical tools to convincingly twirl a saber around and fight with it.  Close, but a just a bit off.  It will be interesting to see if she evolves her actual skill for episode 8.  Looking the novice is not going to fly the next time.  Oh who am I kidding, I fucking love Daisy Ridley and will probably be back here in a year arguing about how awesome she is.


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Abagadro
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Reply #1489 on: October 23, 2016, 11:59:12 PM

Quote
It had good emotional impact

That's the whole fucking point.  It's an old guy who was chilling in the desert for 30 years against a half-machine brute who has no peripheral vision. Plus, the one guy is really just stalling, knowing he is going to die, so the others can escape.  It's great.

Fucking Sonic-Yoda is a travesty next to that.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Cyrrex
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Reply #1490 on: October 24, 2016, 12:21:21 AM

I don't disagree with you.  My complaint about the duel in ANH is more that it just looks like neither of them had a clue how to actually wield a sword.  It works for other reasons, in spite of that.  But as an actual swordfighting display, it is weak as hell.  My son and I have put on more convincing displays when he was 5.

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Reply #1491 on: October 24, 2016, 12:24:32 AM

It's Sir Alec Guinness. Fuck you.   why so serious?

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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eldaec
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Reply #1492 on: October 24, 2016, 01:28:58 AM

Although obviously a different thing, Maul vs Obi-Wan and Liam Neeson was pretty cool.

Except for being intercut with bullshit.


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Cyrrex
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Reply #1493 on: October 24, 2016, 02:12:12 AM

It's Sir Alec Guinness. Fuck you.   why so serious?

You'd think that having "sir" in your name would require you to have some innate sword-wielding abilities built into your dna, but alas, it did not in his case.

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Rishathra
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Reply #1494 on: October 24, 2016, 06:23:04 AM

I'm pretty sure Alec Guinness could do some legit sword fighting at one point, but I seem to recall an anecdote from Ep. 4 about how the lightsaber props were really fragile.  They were basically fiberglass rods that you shone light on to make them sorta kinda glowy, and you couldn't do anything even resembling a full fledged hit without shattering them, which is why all the swings were so lame.  Also, Alec Guinness didn't give two rat fucks about the movie, so I'll bet he wasn't interested in bringing his fencing A-game.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #1495 on: October 24, 2016, 06:58:31 AM

The Vader vs Obi-Wan duel, to me, is really interesting because of the story behind it. Not just the obvious emotional beat but I interpreted the entire duel through this lens:

Vader: Christ, last time I fought him he cut me into little pieces and tossed me into lava. (Even as a kid, I knew Obi Wan whipped Vader's ass in the past, not when I saw ANH but by the early 80s it was "common" knowledge.) Ok...so, let's just sort of poke at him and see what happens. Oh, shit! He swung at me. Ok...taunt him a little, try not to act scared!

Obi-Wan: Damn it kids, get to the spaceship, I'm tired and out of shape. Ok, let's just keep batting his swings away. I can do this all day. Probably.



As for Episode 7, it felt like the first movie to truly show a novice with a saber. We never really got to see Luke go through this incredibly awkward phase. But Daisy? She picks it up and what does she do? She tries to stab with it! And her swings are big and wide and flailing around. And I loved it. Normally, Kylo Ren would have turned her into little pieces of Daisy petals but I think he didn't for three reasons:

1) He was clearly intrigued by her. I think it is obvious that he knows who she is and wants to see what she is capable of. "WHAT GIRL?"
2) He was doing the whole Vader "maybe I can turn her to the dark side" schtick. "I can train you."
3) He'd been shot in the gut by Chewie's bowcaster then fought Finn. I think even Finn got in a hit on him.

By the time he took her seriously she'd charged up her force meter and was in the middle of an unblockable combo attack. His player is just lucky he didn't have to insert another quarter to continue.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 12:05:09 PM by Riggswolfe »

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Trippy
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Reply #1496 on: October 24, 2016, 07:03:59 AM

You left out that he was still upset from killing his father.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #1497 on: October 24, 2016, 08:35:02 AM

You left out that he was still upset from killing his father.


Yeah, I'm glad JJ says in the new commentary track that Kylo was truly wavering in that scene and not just playing Han. Then again he added "In Star Wars when two figures walk out on a narrow bridge with a high fall beneath them it's not ending well for one of them."

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
TheWalrus
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Reply #1498 on: October 24, 2016, 11:25:01 AM

Daisy pedals

Petals. Flowers have petals, bikes have pedals.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #1499 on: October 24, 2016, 08:52:06 PM

Although obviously a different thing, Maul vs Obi-Wan and Liam Neeson was pretty cool.

Except for being intercut with bullshit.



That duel, and the previous one where Maul bails off the speeder right into a lightsaber swing are far and away my favorite parts of the prequels.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1500 on: October 25, 2016, 08:52:57 AM

I try to only remember the parts with Maul in Ep1 and forget the rest of the shitty prequel trilogy existed because holy fuck was it bad.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #1501 on: October 26, 2016, 12:06:28 PM

Daisy pedals

Petals. Flowers have petals, bikes have pedals.

Serves me right for trying to get cute. After typing it I was like "something isn't right here..." then shrugged and moved on.

I try to only remember the parts with Maul in Ep1 and forget the rest of the shitty prequel trilogy existed because holy fuck was it bad.

I enjoyed the pod racing I have to admit. And I enjoyed seeing what a badass Obi-Wan was in his prime. The rest I could have done without.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Cyrrex
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Reply #1502 on: October 27, 2016, 10:24:11 AM

Ewan MacGregor transcended the script in all three movies.  He was one of the few consistent bright spots.

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Malakili
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Reply #1503 on: October 27, 2016, 05:52:58 PM

Maul was a legit badass character



Maul has no character. He was more plot device than character. The fact that you actually wrote that as a part of a sentence is pretty much all the evidence I need to ignore anything you say about film forever.
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Reply #1504 on: October 27, 2016, 05:55:17 PM

Ewan MacGregor transcended the script in all three movies.  He was one of the few consistent bright spots.
It helps the dude's a legit Star Wars freak. (and the nephew of Wedge.)  He and Sam Jackson clearly had the most fun. (to the point McGregor had to be told, frequently, to stop making saber sounds when fighting.)  He cared more about giving a performance than even Lucas. Portman was clearly over it by the midpoint of the first movie.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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