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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: EQ Next Landmark - It's Like Minecraft But Not™ 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EQ Next Landmark - It's Like Minecraft But Not™  (Read 332602 times)
Venkman
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Reply #245 on: February 17, 2014, 03:59:55 PM

You need to go full hermit for a few days while you get Paint and Line tools  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

My hovel is near the southern edge of Ravine. My closest neighbors all have blocky Keeps. The only depressing part I've run unto is the crafting stations they have. But, I'm more than happy to avail myself of their services. I'll do the remainder of the Pick/Axe/resources grind after the last wipe.
Quinton
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Reply #246 on: February 17, 2014, 07:13:14 PM

Grr!  The client is blowing up when I try to connect to a server (progress bar hits 50% things start flickering then it just exits to desktop).  Running windows update and then updating the nvidia driver just for grins, to see if that makes anything happier.
Sky
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Reply #247 on: February 17, 2014, 07:17:28 PM

I saw a guy in my little facilities cave today. You can see it in the bottom of my pic, it's pretty cool actually as I tried to leave it rough and natural - I used the sphere delete tool and went to town and only smoothed the entrance, then put in a floor.

I have the highest forge, but I'm one or two behind on the others because the girl in the valley below me has all of them upgraded so why bother at this point.

+1 to getting the paint tool. Sometimes the add tool is a pita to put into the selected volume, with paint you can select a bit of air space as well and paint onto that instead of filling it as you would with the add. And the line tool, as wonky as it is, leads to good things eventually.

Quinton - have you tried connecting to a different server (where you don't have a claim/didn't log out on)? That happened to me and people on the forums talked about it, but my workaround worked in my case.
Quinton
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Reply #248 on: February 17, 2014, 07:51:35 PM

I did try a different server.  After updating windows and the graphics drivers things are happier.  Maybe it helped.  Maybe it was a temporary issue.  Maybe the reboot helped.  In any case I'm chopping virtual trees and digging virtual holes again, yay!
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Reply #249 on: February 18, 2014, 01:06:06 AM


Bzalthek
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Reply #250 on: February 18, 2014, 05:53:05 AM

Read on to the end of page 1 and page 2.  There's a poster (damny) who points out that the line tool is pretty shit for fine detail, and you can get better results without using it.

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Merusk
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Reply #251 on: February 18, 2014, 06:35:17 AM

That will be true of all the tools from what I'm seeing, but that's why you can place and remove individual voxels in each shape.  Use the big tools for massing & general shape, then sculpt for detail.


Also a problem they need to address: Grinding for tools is bullshit.  3 1/2 hours last night grinding for elemental gold to make the veridian pick and I'm still short by 10 units.  THEN I need to grind even more for the bigger furnaces, mills and tables. Fuck. That. Noise.  The draw of this game is building, not grinding to be Mr. Uber Tool Man.

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kaid
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Reply #252 on: February 18, 2014, 06:41:29 AM

Read on to the end of page 1 and page 2.  There's a poster (damny) who points out that the line tool is pretty shit for fine detail, and you can get better results without using it.

Yes it is good for doing things quickly but if you have the time and the skill you can get better effects doing things manually. That said when doing things like pyramids/obelisks/railings its pretty fast and easy.
Sky
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Reply #253 on: February 18, 2014, 07:47:19 AM

Damny is the man.

As far as grinding for tools, I still say it's not a big deal. You're going to need a /lot/ of stone to build so if they give you the tools right away, you're still grinding for stone. By having the short term (really it's only a couple play sessions even for someone as casual as me) you end up with a guided experience that leaves you with a nice stash of basic building materials to work with.

And you don't need to build up your facilities, really. Plenty of people around you have them, it's an optional grind for convenience.

Part of the problem with 'sculpt for detail' is that the voxels react poorly to any off-axis lines. So if you try to sculpt any diagonal piece, you won't be able to undo it to the previous state, it will change it irrevocably. So do a lot of iterating out your work and use templating for saving components and whatnot. When I did my house, there were bits of wall panel and roof hanging around in mid-air as I made adjustments. The only way to fix a bad change to most of the complex stuff you can bend the tools to do (but even some simple diagonals) is to delete the whole thing and paste in a previous version.
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Reply #254 on: February 18, 2014, 08:22:28 AM

Damny is the man.

As far as grinding for tools, I still say it's not a big deal. You're going to need a /lot/ of stone to build so if they give you the tools right away, you're still grinding for stone.

Yeah, except that grinding for tools means those resources aren't there for me to use anymore. Considering how much wood it takes to do stuff that's important when you're trying to put crown moulding in your build.

Grinding resources so I can use them is different from grinding resources so I have the ability to use future resources I'm grinding. That's a pretty fundamental difference.  You're arguing the Ubers raider's position in any other MMO here.  "It's not that much work. Just do it, what are you lazy?"

And considering that build=time convenience is pretty damn important.

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Signe
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Reply #255 on: February 18, 2014, 08:27:38 AM

I haven't built anything yet although I made a big hole.  I've just been harvesting and upgrading and running around looking at stuff other people made.  It's all being wiped next week, right?  I have been collecting guides and tips from the forum for when I'm inspired to build.  I'm planning on a little cottage in the woods with a big bike shed to keep all my stuff in and do naughty things behind.  My plot of land isn't very inspiring.  Evidently, if you buy the whole deal that is nearly $100 you get two days on the people who bought the next level down and those people get a couple of days on everyone else.  Maybe I'll find a bit of woods that will motivate me.  I have enough burled wood than you can shake a stick at.  

I just read my post.  Good luck understanding it!   ACK!

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Sky
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Reply #256 on: February 18, 2014, 08:53:20 AM

Yeah, except that grinding for tools means those resources aren't there for me to use anymore. Considering how much wood it takes to do stuff that's important when you're trying to put crown moulding in your build.
Tools use very little of the resources used for building. The lady in the valley is using some burled wood in construction now that she's finished teching up, but it's a rare resource. When you have collected enough for tool progression, you'll have a nice stash of plain wood for building. And again, find a local crafting station with fully upgraded benches and use those to save the really big drain on resources. Getting enough to tool up your pick isn't really as bad as you're making it sound. If you want to grind out enough resources to keep trying for a rare or legendary version, well yeah...that's where the raider grind comes into it. But unlike a straight grind, it is possible to get lucky with a nice rare. For the axe, there's really only two right now. I've been trying on and off to get a better version of the gold axe but it eludes me.

Or you could come visit me and I'll give you a decent gold axe and whatever pick I have laying in the vault to get you going.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Signe, the nice things about wipes is we should be able to get back up to speed fairly quickly with templates. So it's not a complete loss to be building stuff right now. I'm mostly focused on learning the tools and tricks and building a small library of basic component templates (arches, cylinders, panels, etc).
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Reply #257 on: February 18, 2014, 08:55:35 AM

I haven't built anything yet although I made a big hole.  I've just been harvesting and upgrading and running around looking at stuff other people made.  It's all being wiped next week, right?  I have been collecting guides and tips from the forum for when I'm inspired to build.  I'm planning on a little cottage in the woods with a big bike shed to keep all my stuff in and do naughty things behind.  My plot of land isn't very inspiring.  Evidently, if you buy the whole deal that is nearly $100 you get two days on the people who bought the next level down and those people get a couple of days on everyone else.  Maybe I'll find a bit of woods that will motivate me.  I have enough burled wood than you can shake a stick at.  

I just read my post.  Good luck understanding it!   ACK!


I'm pretty sure your burled wood gets wiped at the same time as your plot . . .
kaid
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Reply #258 on: February 18, 2014, 09:04:47 AM

Damny is the man.

As far as grinding for tools, I still say it's not a big deal. You're going to need a /lot/ of stone to build so if they give you the tools right away, you're still grinding for stone.

Yeah, except that grinding for tools means those resources aren't there for me to use anymore. Considering how much wood it takes to do stuff that's important when you're trying to put crown moulding in your build.

Grinding resources so I can use them is different from grinding resources so I have the ability to use future resources I'm grinding. That's a pretty fundamental difference.  You're arguing the Ubers raider's position in any other MMO here.  "It's not that much work. Just do it, what are you lazy?"

And considering that build=time convenience is pretty damn important.

Honestly the efficiency gained by the better tools more than offsets the time set to grind them and given the huge amounts of resources needed the actual "grind" for tools at least currently is pretty minimal. Also if you are not riding the first wave of people leveling up their crafting stuff or like me you have friends playing at the same time I would build one thing my friend built another that allowed us to daisy chain ourselves up and spending a fraction of the normal resource costs getting the best crafting benches.

Still I will reserve judgement to some extent until we see what a real actual game biome looks like with caves and sunken resources on how significant tool grinds really are in the long run. I also expect to see some huge changes in the crafting system what is there now is the most utterly basic system possible likely just to have it there and get some actual in game numbers on how the system works with real players not bots.

Also it sounds like going from beta to live if you are a trailblazer or founder you are going to be able to keep resources which would make the initial jump into live super easy and seamless and you could immedately ramp your building tools up in a few minutes and start working on your structures immediately.

One thing to note before I even realized you could craft better tools I made a full claim sized pyramid using nothing but stone/dirt harvested with my founders axe. So if you want to go straight to building right away but its worth a play session or two upgrading the tools for the incredibly increased efficiency.
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Reply #259 on: February 18, 2014, 09:32:32 AM

Exactly. You can build whatever you want just with dirt. And then eventually upgrade later to different material if you so wish. The only thing that could really need some grinding (if you want to call it that) are the tools, selection, line, smooth, but I consider the very little gating necessary to get to them as a way to familirize with what you have before having too many things to deal with.

I get what Merusk is saying, but it looks like they want to make sure the game will have have some sense of progression for those who like that feeling. Those who will sink deep into building won't even notice the very small grind considering they usually mine like crazy anyway, and those who like to measure their achievements will have their way to do so. As Kaid said, until we know exactly how progression of tools and tiers of materials will be tuned it's hard to comment, but the way it is now seems to be tuned fairly well for the majority of the players.

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Reply #260 on: February 18, 2014, 09:54:20 AM

Progression for minimal tools and minimal resources works fine in Minecraft.  You need to get people to understand what resources look like and where to find them, so that's fine.  No reason to have them mine 15+ nodes for a single tool upgrade.  There's also no need to turn it in to a grind where people are spending 10+ hours just to get basic building tools.  If you're THAT worried about players needing a retention device they weren't interested in your game's vision in the first place and are only going to ask for additional gated nonsense so they can 'feel like they're progressing.'

Sorry. It's bullshit.  I get you guys are in love with the game but don't white knight stupid design decisions because of it.

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Reply #261 on: February 18, 2014, 09:59:28 AM

*sigh*

OK.

Sky
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Reply #262 on: February 18, 2014, 10:00:02 AM

Or you could just come visit and I can get you decent enough tools to harvest the building tools.  Ohhhhh, I see.
Signe
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Reply #263 on: February 18, 2014, 10:06:37 AM

I'll be sorry to see my lovely burled wood disappear.  :(  What's your address, Sky?  I saw it but now I can't find it.  I don't mean I saw it for real, but you posted it and now I can't find that post.  Or sommat.  Anyway, are you making an English Tudor?  Why?  Shouldn't your house be made of wood and painted red?  And have a grass roof?  And headless fish drying in the sun?  Bleh.  I will teach you about your heritage, American Viking!  I should be able to smell your house from a different server!  Why should your breath stink of fish and your home smell like an English tea rose, Mr. Fancy?  MY house will stink of fish.

Anyway, my laptop was dying and it was way too difficult to build or to really do much of anything.  For a while I couldn't even harvest because no colours showed up.  It got better but then it got bad again.  I had to finally break down and get a new computer.  It wasn't as expensive as the laptop that I'm totally disgusted with as it should have lasted longer, but it does have a better graphics card and a bit more ram.  Hopefully, it'll last more than two years.  Now that I've spent all my tattoo money everything is working fine and really fast but I still have this annoying bit of empty skin on my left arm.  Oh well.

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Reply #264 on: February 18, 2014, 10:30:31 AM

Merusk you talk about game design the same way people talk about football in bars, and how they would have easily won the superbowl if only they were in charge. In a way I guess that's what we are all here for -with few exceptions-, but you really look like that guy on the stool that sits there with a pint any given Sunday and keeps blaring and complaining about proper routes, the basics of tackling or the importance of special teams.

Newsflash: "Good Game Design" is not a synonym of "What Merusk Likes". Get off the pedestal stool.

Sky
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Reply #265 on: February 18, 2014, 11:20:33 AM

Let's keep it civil, Falc. Admit things look different from the seats on the bus, too.

Signe, I blame my heathen fiancee (who is one of the conquered little people of Eire). She loves Tudor, well, everything. I don't get it but she has a fetish for the black plague, too, so...yeah. I bought her a poisoner's vial once as a gift. People thinks she's so normal. I have some guitar string, an old tape player, a pen body and some black ink if you want me to permanently mar you.

I'm on Serenity/Highland SW of the portal gem on the border of forest and desert. Claim is titled "Highland Rook".
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Reply #266 on: February 18, 2014, 11:32:04 AM

Or you could just come visit and I can get you decent enough tools to harvest the building tools.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Assuming this is about me is the first mistake. 

I expect neither of you to bitch about not being able to solo content again.  awesome, for real Ohhhhh, I see.

Sorry I'm picking on your pet game AGAIN falc. Maybe you should take it less personally.

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Reply #267 on: February 18, 2014, 11:37:39 AM

As someone who hasn't tried it yet, the tool grind does appear to be completely unnecessary busywork. I am not sure I understand why anyone is defending it.

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Reply #268 on: February 18, 2014, 11:41:03 AM

We live in the age of Facebook games which are 95% unnecessary busywork.

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Sky
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Reply #269 on: February 18, 2014, 12:07:50 PM

Sorry if this was just an f13 game design wankfest, I thought you wanted some help with getting tools. I don't have any interest in armchair game designer. Carry on.
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Reply #270 on: February 18, 2014, 12:19:29 PM

 

There, there it'll be alright.  You could in the meantime, remove the sand from your vag, and realize people may not like grindy bullshit, even if it is attached to something you're currently enjoying.

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Sky
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Reply #271 on: February 18, 2014, 12:24:34 PM

This thread has taken an interesting turn. Nice work.

I do like that the people with 'sandy vag' are the ones enjoying the game and the perfectly reasonable folks are those bitching about it. But yeah. f13.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 12:26:47 PM by Sky »
tazelbain
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Reply #272 on: February 18, 2014, 01:07:07 PM

Does mater because Smed will come up with a voxel surcharge or something to ruin everything.

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Reply #273 on: February 18, 2014, 01:30:39 PM

Even though I have little to show for my time, I have learned a lot and I think I have a pretty good idea what I'll be doing when Beta starts.  I just don't think you can do much real designing till you get the line tool because sooner or later you need a diagonal.  I do think they need to rethink how they get tools to the players because while its not a big deal grinding for equipment, grinding for tools really limits you.  The only other option is for them to link tools in some sort of tutorial where they first show you how to use them, give you a project, then award you the tool.   Polish tools can probably be reserved till later though.

Edited to add, as I read up.  I don't think anyone enjoying the game thinks grinding for the tools is a good idea, but I think we all assume it will come together more in further iterations of the game.  Your impressions are the very thing alphas are for, but if you are just going to throw your hands up and not grind the tools, then do yourself a favor and just wait till public release.  Even in alpha, the creativity shown by some of those participating far exceeds anything I've seen in Minecraft normal mode.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 01:36:00 PM by Senses »
Venkman
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Reply #274 on: February 18, 2014, 01:35:05 PM

Or you could just come visit and I can get you decent enough tools to harvest the building tools.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Assuming this is about me is the first mistake.  

I expect neither of you to bitch about not being able to solo content again.  awesome, for real Ohhhhh, I see.

Sorry I'm picking on your pet game AGAIN falc. Maybe you should take it less personally.

Merusk, you're assuming you need to personally achieve an entirely self-sufficient operation, and seem to be using Minecraft as you're baseline. Neither is wrong per se, and you may represent the mindset of a bunch of silent users. But that's a perspective unique to you in the context of people who are talking in this thread.

Sky's reponse can be categorized as the usual "why play an MMO if all you want to do is solo" response. But it's the literal truth for the game in its current state. I have the Paint and Line tool and the max resource I can mine is Cobalt. Which I don't care about because all I want is plain wood, stone and sandstone. It's so easy to go on a resource hunt and use the crafting stations others have along the way, I don't even use the stations I have. Why bother? But this reminds me of the bitching about black dye tubs in EQ1. Why do I need one, when everyone else has one I can use?

I'm not "forgiving" the game. I don't care who plays. And regardless of the state of it today, to tazelbain's point, we all know how easily this could get screwed up in the coming weeks or months or years. We're one f2p/NGE/major-nerf away from failure.

Minecraft is comparable only in the most general sense of needing certain tools to gather certain resources to build certain things. But imagine how long it would take to go from a fresh MC Adventure world to building a full 8bit computer. Or a piston monorail. Or an automated self-sustaining farm. Or a full set of three-stat V level enchanted diamond armor set?

Does that forgive EQNL? No. But you made this critique a week and a half ago and are still here  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 01:36:39 PM by Darniaq »
Quinton
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Reply #275 on: February 18, 2014, 02:05:54 PM

As somebody just getting started, I am definitely annoyed by the grind-to-build-interface-elements part of things.  It's not the end of the world, but my interest here is in using the neat voxel editing stuff to build things, but jump through hoops to enable that.

The selection tool, in particular, seems so fundamental to the interface that making me run around to build copper tools then run around to build the a saw so I can build wood planks and then run around to get the other stuff to build the selection tool is just annoying.

I can sort of see wanting to introduce stuff gradually, but making players dig in the ground and chop trees, interface-wise, does not teach them anything that is going to make the selection tool more understandable.  It's just busywork.

I was happy to learn that I will be able to mock stuff up in cheap materials and upgrade with the paint tool, though I do wonder what hoops I'll have to jump through to get the paint tool. ^^
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Reply #276 on: February 18, 2014, 02:30:06 PM

Its all really the same, different elements, same grind.  I think we are forgetting that they are planning on actually placing anl MMO around this building stuff and that presumable there is going to be more filler around the gaps that we see now.  Most of us jumped in and wanted to build immediately, which to be fair, is entirely possible.  In reality, and what I plan to do in beta, is find a good claim then go spend the week gathering my way to  rare or legendary accessories, axe and pick.  Once I'm set up I will start to build.
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Reply #277 on: February 18, 2014, 03:40:45 PM

I went looking for Sky's place before I knew where it was by looking for high stuff.  Unfortunately, people seem to like high stuff on that world.  No worries though, I found a place and claimed it as my claim was annoying me anyway.  This is my fourth or fifth claim.  I think my game has been finding places to claim where there shouldn't be any.  :)  Anyway, the big tree won't go away.  :(  Dammit.

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Reply #278 on: February 19, 2014, 11:50:56 AM

Signe I yelled, cheered, screamed at you in chat yesterday when I saw you logging in the f13 channel. I know that the chat is so wonky and buggy right now that it is very easy to miss messages. If, instead, you were actually trying to ignore me, you did an awesome job.

Anyway, I'll take the occasion of this silly post to show just one more amazing thing that is flying around in EQL.


Signe
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Reply #279 on: February 19, 2014, 12:06:34 PM

I'm glad I'm awesome at something - even if it's accidental.  I don't know I didn't see it since I had it on that channel.  I saw Palmer log in but he's anti-social and all that.  I might have called him a misanthropic bastard.  Or maybe I just said that out loud.  I found a claim on that Serenity server on the Highland world because I think that's where Sky and other f13 people went.  They're going to be doing that phase one thingy soon I think, which might mean we can band together and go for world domination.  You can be the World Dominatrix.  I have a feeling it might suit you.  Anyway, I don't know if we would need to be on the same server and world to have a group or a guild or a whatever.  I guess I should go read something.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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