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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 139329 times)
Megrim
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Reply #210 on: April 27, 2014, 01:44:16 PM

Blizzard didn't make up the Nephilim, it's a Judeo Christian thing that they modified to fit in the world of Sanctuary.

Don't get me wrong, the story and the implementation of the story suck.  But I think that particular story element was one of the most well thought out.  It borrows from the traditions that are thematically in keeping with those chosen for Sanctuary (Angels and Demons), and modifies it to fit the cosmology of this world.  There's so much else to be annoyed with in the story, choosing the Nephalem back story as a target for rancor seems... odd.

It's shit because it takes agency away from the player. You didn't beat the daemons because you are a badass human, getting by with skill, luck and determination in the face of overwhelming odds and the forces of heaven and hell arrayed against you - you beat the daemons because you are speshul and the chosen one.

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Paelos
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Reply #211 on: April 27, 2014, 01:58:13 PM

I can deal with the chosen one crap if it's explained in a decent way. Morrowind's Nerevarine story didn't bother me in that regard.

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Simond
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Reply #212 on: April 27, 2014, 04:33:46 PM

It's shit because it takes agency away from the player. You didn't beat the daemons because you are a badass human, getting by with skill, luck and determination in the face of overwhelming odds and the forces of heaven and hell arrayed against you - you beat the daemons because you are speshul and the chosen one.
Hello and welcome to 90% of video game plots. Enjoy your stay.

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KallDrexx
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Reply #213 on: April 27, 2014, 06:12:38 PM

This thread is good cause now I know what a nephalim was.  I gave up trying to figure it out that by the time they probably told me (optional shit I guess?) I had just stopped caring.

I don't think the problem is that they used the concept of nephalim and that you were special, the problem is they were terrible at introducing the concept to you and explaining it.
Tarami
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Reply #214 on: April 27, 2014, 06:26:23 PM

Blizzard didn't make up the Nephilim, it's a Judeo Christian thing that they modified to fit in the world of Sanctuary.

Don't get me wrong, the story and the implementation of the story suck.  But I think that particular story element was one of the most well thought out.  It borrows from the traditions that are thematically in keeping with those chosen for Sanctuary (Angels and Demons), and modifies it to fit the cosmology of this world.  There's so much else to be annoyed with in the story, choosing the Nephalem back story as a target for rancor seems... odd.
Well, Typhalem, I don't nephalem that it's the concept of nephalem itself that makes people's nephalem rise, but that it turns up every nephaleming time any non-nephalem open their goddamn mouth. It's like the Fanfic Smurf wrote the script but instead of overusing "nephalem" he overused "nephalem".

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Malakili
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Reply #215 on: April 27, 2014, 11:18:31 PM



It's shit because it takes agency away from the player. You didn't beat the daemons because you are a badass human, getting by with skill, luck and determination in the face of overwhelming odds and the forces of heaven and hell arrayed against you - you beat the daemons because you are speshul and the chosen one.

This is one of my least favorite story elements and it has come up a ton in games lately.  Can't I just be a badass again?  Why do I have to be an instrument of fate?
Maledict
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Reply #216 on: April 28, 2014, 03:03:42 AM

Blizzard didn't make up the Nephilim, it's a Judeo Christian thing that they modified to fit in the world of Sanctuary.

Don't get me wrong, the story and the implementation of the story suck.  But I think that particular story element was one of the most well thought out.  It borrows from the traditions that are thematically in keeping with those chosen for Sanctuary (Angels and Demons), and modifies it to fit the cosmology of this world.  There's so much else to be annoyed with in the story, choosing the Nephalem back story as a target for rancor seems... odd.

Whilst they didn't make it up, it absolutely didn't fit with the world at all in the way they implemented it.

The entire ret-conning of diablo's storyline and background to fit in with a series of unbelievably shitty books that no-one reads really irritated me. It really undermines the entire setting as presented in Diablo 1 and 2, and substantially cheapens it by suddenly having the player character turn out to be superman.

(with absolutely no logic or reasoning presented in game at all).
Typhon
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Reply #217 on: April 28, 2014, 05:57:38 AM

I haven't read any Diablo books, everything I think I know I got from the games.

  • D1 - Diablo is in the basement of the cathedral. I get all my abilities from books that someone left laying around. I ram the soulstone into my head at the end... woah... ok, that was stupid, why would I do that?
  • D2 - Angels created soulstones to trap the primes, Diablo was buried under Tristram.  Other two primes are elsewhere in the world.  War in Hell between the primes and second string.  I get my abilities from killing shit.  I destroy all the soulstones and (in the ad-on) Tyrael destroys the world stone... woah... ok, what the fuck is a world stone?  Did we need that?  But the primes are totally ded4ever, so we're good, amirite!?
  • D3 - Angels and Demons apparently sometimes do the nasty, and when they do, humans are the result.  Cept they called them 'nephalem' then, and they were all jacked up and powerful.  Then 'the man', aka, 'Angels' used the worldstone to keep us down and we've been mostly pretty limp ever since.  Cool Hand Kulle almost put that to rights by creating the black soulstone, but Tyrael and those boot lickers the Horadrum f'd that up proper.  Adria does some super-hand-wavybullshit-oh christ this story is so fucked are they high? and magically puts Diablo (who's soul was totally destroyed 4ever at the end of D2 but really wasn't his/her/it's soul was just floating around waiting for its chance to) into the black soulstone!  AND NO ONE SAW IT COMING!  Bear with me though, because the ride actually goes even more off the rails here.  Adria also managed to trick the other two PRIME evils into the stone even though it's not their plan and they are totally fucked by having that happen and we would think they'd be laying low but no, Adria is totally bad ass (seriously, what are the writers smoking?).  We then use the black soulstone to trap all the second string (where's Andariel?), whipping the 'grand strategist', who is EONs old, with our crafty, "I'll just go down there and KEEL them all!" plan.  He never fucking saw that coming, that's for sure.  Ok, I'm going to speed up here because it gets HELLISHLY stupid from here on out... you know what, fuck it, you know the rest.

but no, really, I get how the Nephalem angle is the most annoying part of the story.  In fact, now that you mention it, I also am really upset that I wasn't able to single-handedly defeat the combined might of all the lords of hell and one of the baddest asses of the Angels who has transformed himself into an aspect of Death by simply trying harder then everyone else.  Don't take my agency mother-fuckers!
Kail
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Reply #218 on: April 28, 2014, 03:06:27 PM

In fact, now that you mention it, I also am really upset that I wasn't able to single-handedly defeat the combined might of all the lords of hell and one of the baddest asses of the Angels who has transformed himself into an aspect of Death by simply trying harder then everyone else.  Don't take my agency mother-fuckers!

I've never played D3, is there some kind of gameplay advantage to being a Nephalem that makes that less of an issue or something?  Because in other games, a lot of the time when this kind of story is presented and the player is the CHOSEN ONE or some shit, you get some vague mumbling about how only you can defeat the super dragon, but then you just go and hit it with a magic sword, like anyone could have done, and the only reason nobody else did was because Video Game.
Rendakor
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Reply #219 on: April 28, 2014, 03:14:29 PM

There really isn't, and the whole CHOSEN ONE thing is made more absurd by the fact that the game can only be played online and features drop in/drop out coop.

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Typhon
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Reply #220 on: April 28, 2014, 03:52:34 PM

In fact, now that you mention it, I also am really upset that I wasn't able to single-handedly defeat the combined might of all the lords of hell and one of the baddest asses of the Angels who has transformed himself into an aspect of Death by simply trying harder then everyone else.  Don't take my agency mother-fuckers!

I've never played D3, is there some kind of gameplay advantage to being a Nephalem that makes that less of an issue or something?  Because in other games, a lot of the time when this kind of story is presented and the player is the CHOSEN ONE or some shit, you get some vague mumbling about how only you can defeat the super dragon, but then you just go and hit it with a magic sword, like anyone could have done, and the only reason nobody else did was because Video Game.

There is no gameplay advantage, it's a story thing only.  In this game world if you take 'Nephalem' to mean, "created by the union of both Angel and Demon", everyone in Sanctuary (except Tyrael) is a Nephalem.  Which, honestly, the story makes pretty clear when Malphael makes it his mission to kill all humans.  Your character is special in that he's A) more powerful than other humans, B) quicker to regain the lost power after the destruction of the world stone, or C) both.
Ingmar
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Reply #221 on: April 28, 2014, 04:05:15 PM

The main glaring thing they never explain is why you are a "nephalem" despite nephalem having deteriorated into humans hundreds/thousands of years ago. Even the 'what is a nephalem' stuff isn't really adequately explained until the RoS lore book thingies, which they clearly pasted in after realizing their story made no goddamn sense.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #222 on: April 28, 2014, 05:52:20 PM

It's shit because it takes agency away from the player. You didn't beat the daemons because you are a badass human, getting by with skill, luck and determination in the face of overwhelming odds and the forces of heaven and hell arrayed against you - you beat the daemons because you are speshul and the chosen one.
Hello and welcome to 90% of video game plots. Enjoy your stay.

What's ironic is that of the 90% of anime plots that involve the main character being expceptional from birth due to lineage or being the chosen one, Gurren Lagann is the exception.

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Reply #223 on: April 28, 2014, 10:54:14 PM

Guys. Its Blizzard. Stop.
Maven
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Reply #224 on: April 29, 2014, 01:01:55 AM

It's a matter of faith at this point.
Paelos
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Reply #225 on: April 29, 2014, 07:03:05 AM

Guys. Its Blizzard. Stop.

NEVER! FULL SPEED AHEAD INTO LOLORE!

Fucking Nephalem, how do they work?

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Hoax
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Reply #226 on: April 29, 2014, 11:07:59 AM

I thought people were mad about the whole Nephalem thing because like everything in dialogue of d3 its done to death. You hear the word overandoverandoverandoverandover^100 until your ears bleed because its the worst fucking story of all time. Caring about the agency of my character? The fuck. The problem is everything is stupid, everyone is even stupider and worst of all nobody will shut the fuck up about it and Azmo and Diablo are the same character:

-bwa ha ha, there is no way you can win
-bwa ha that didn't count as winning that minion was a dick
-ok fine you may think you've won but I'm just toying with you
-you don't even understand how beaten you are yet even though you have now killed everything I've set between us

Its tiresome. Its stupid. It makes the whole experience cheap and YOU CANT SHUT IT OFF. Well you couldn't and the current auto skip feature is pretty shit and doesn't make all the horrible dialogue go away.

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Malakili
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Reply #227 on: April 29, 2014, 11:52:06 AM

All those things too.

Diablo in Diablo 2 was built up by absence.  In this game Diablo just comes off as a B movie villain.
Paelos
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Reply #228 on: April 29, 2014, 12:17:09 PM

In Diablo originally, the idea that you actually fought your way down into Hell itself was cool. When you get to the hell levels, and your character says, "I must be getting close" as the cool music plays? That moment was cooler than any of the ridiculous dialogue in the entire D3 game.

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Maven
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Reply #229 on: April 29, 2014, 06:39:07 PM

That reminds me of that idealogical shift which occurred between Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard designers thought the villain, who was featured prominently in advertising, should go from a background, end boss element to being more directly involved with the player.

That expansion killed the Lich King in more ways than one. His "cool" was whittled away by mustache-twirling antics like you described -- eventually explained that you were being cultivated as the ultimate Death Knight or successor or blah blah blah. The point was that he gave up all of Northrend to create a super soldier out of you, and the reality of being on the defensive and pushed back to Icecrown didn't seem to sink in.

Glimpses are the way to go.
Paelos
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Reply #230 on: April 29, 2014, 07:58:09 PM

Going full nerd gets us midichlorians.

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Soulflame
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Reply #231 on: April 29, 2014, 10:25:30 PM

The thing is, the players could not beat the Lich King.  It took guy with super sword to do that.  The Lich King toys with you in that final fight until you get him to a certain point, then he instantly kills your entire raid.
Paelos
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Reply #232 on: April 30, 2014, 06:20:53 AM

People really bitched about that at the time, too.

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Draegan
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Reply #233 on: April 30, 2014, 07:19:43 AM

I come to this thread to read people making fun of HotS, not making fun of D3 shitlore.

I am disapoint.
Fordel
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Reply #234 on: May 01, 2014, 07:46:28 PM

People would have to actually have feelings towards HotS, either way.

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Reply #235 on: June 06, 2014, 09:52:28 PM

So, I got into the alpha and finally tried this a bit. I think it probably has a shot to be Dota for the Extremely Casual. Typical Blizzard polish is there, even in alpha. The model is very much like Hearthstone with dailies, currency, etc. It's very very simple next to Dota2 for sure. Just laning and team fights, no farm phase at all really.

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schild
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Reply #236 on: June 06, 2014, 10:21:54 PM

The sum total of HOTS opinions have been:
1. It's very polished.
2. It's very boring.

:(

I want to believe it's not the latter, but I haven't bothered with it yet.
K9
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Reply #237 on: June 18, 2014, 12:07:33 PM

The sum total of HOTS opinions have been:
1. It's very polished.
2. It's very boring.

:(

I want to believe it's not the latter, but I haven't bothered with it yet.



In contrast LOL has ~115,000, Hearthstone has ~35,000, and DoTA2 has ~27,000 viewers right now

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Reply #238 on: June 18, 2014, 12:09:33 PM

In contrast, Vampire Killer and SC1 Brood War has more viewers. I have no clue what the first one is, but lol@ the second one.
K9
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Reply #239 on: June 18, 2014, 12:16:20 PM

Clash of Clans has more viewers. I don't know how you pull back from this sort of thing.

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Reply #240 on: June 18, 2014, 12:21:47 PM

You cancel the game. That's how.
Paelos
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Reply #241 on: June 18, 2014, 12:25:13 PM

You cancel the game. That's how.

Yeah this is Blizzard. Not Zenimax Online. They can afford to not release something stupid.

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Kail
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Reply #242 on: June 18, 2014, 12:28:31 PM

In contrast LOL has ~115,000, Hearthstone has ~35,000, and DoTA2 has ~27,000 viewers right now

To be fair, HotS hasn't actually released yet (unless I missed it, in which case never mind).  Most of the big games on Twitch tend to be competitive multiplayer deals, where watching the top players can show you how to play.  That goes away when you can't play the game, and the "competition" is mostly pretty minor.  Game popularity and viewership tend to rise together, so I really expect more people to watch when the game is released "for reals".  Not sure if it will reach anything close to Hearthstone levels, though, which might be a problem for long term support of the game.
Malakili
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Reply #243 on: June 18, 2014, 01:57:43 PM

Isn't Hearthstone also not not released yet?  

Either way, I don't think that's right.  The problem with HotS is that it isn't interesting on any level.  Not to play, not to watch.  All the stuff they removed from the genre's usual mechanics made it kind of pointless.  As appealing as it sounds to some people to remove last hitting and memorizing item builds, and individual levels, in the end it makes for a pretty bland experience.  I guess you can say, rightly, that a version of a MOBA with 20 minute games, more focus on map objectives and more focus on teamplay from level 1 has some value in theory, but in practice it just isn't very fun to play.

I mean, in the current game mode they have available you can't even pick your characters with your team.  You choose a champion and THEN queue for your match.  So I guess there goes the teamplay their game mechanics supposedly encourage because you can't even make a team composition with the teammates you get matched with.  

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 01:59:41 PM by Malakili »
Ingmar
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Reply #244 on: June 18, 2014, 01:58:31 PM

I'm not sure the viewer count matters a ton when it's still in early alpha or whatever this is. Hearthstone is in 'anyone can play it' beta which is a big difference.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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