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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 139339 times)
Hoax
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Reply #175 on: April 18, 2014, 08:17:46 PM

I don't think I've ever seen story worse than D3, I don't really care about anything else. Literally worst story in a game that didn't need the story to do anything at all. It was so distressingly bad that I felt stupid for enjoying any part of the game and still do every time Azmodan opens his mouth.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 08:21:50 AM by Hoax »

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Simond
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Reply #176 on: April 19, 2014, 02:33:21 AM

He was in the building. They let him write some portions. But he wasn't the creator of these IPs.
Created Starcraft, expanded Warcraft from "Hey, there's some orcs and some humans and they fight" to everything from WC2 onwards, and co-created Diablo.

But sure.

Whatever.

James Phinney helped create Starcraft. See no matter what happened with those IPs surrounding Metzen, there was always another guy in the big picture. Metzen's been on his own for a while now, and for some reason we've seen shit get worse and worse and worse.

And no new IPs. And a failed one in Titan (so far). You're the fanboi here so you can believe the company line all you want. I think the fact that we've seen what we've seen out of Metzen when he's had full control has been basically lore garbage. And again, the Titan failure to launch so far is a huge blow, even though they won't paint it as such.
So you're saying Titan was cancelled because the lore was bad?

haha oh wow

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Margalis
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Reply #177 on: April 19, 2014, 04:14:12 AM

What the hell are you guys arguing about?

Metzen writes the lore and the lore is garbage. That's the full story.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Malakili
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Reply #178 on: April 19, 2014, 04:48:09 AM

What the hell are you guys arguing about?

Metzen writes the lore and the lore is garbage. That's the full story.

The question is if the lore was always garbage, and how much Metzen was or wasn't involved in the lore that might not have been garbage.


But yeah, the lore is now garbage, and he is responsible for that.  So who cares about the past?
Maven
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Reply #179 on: April 19, 2014, 09:34:14 AM

Edit: Pointless analysis.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:23:32 PM by Maven »
Maven
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Reply #180 on: April 19, 2014, 10:33:13 AM

Sorry for double post. I have nothing meaningful to contribute.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:23:48 PM by Maven »
Samprimary
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Reply #181 on: April 19, 2014, 12:45:46 PM

I don't think I've ever seen story worse than D3, I don't really care about anything else. Literally worst story in a game that didn't need the story to do anything at all. It was so distressingly bad that I felt stupid for enjoying any part of the game and still do every time Azmodan opens his mouth.

there's plenty of worse stories all over the place, d3/hots are just outliers in terms of how annoying and rage inducing they are because, at least in my own mind and probably others, an aggressively bad story sticks out in a game with production values that suggest quality and ganeplay experience  otherwise...
Malakili
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Reply #182 on: April 19, 2014, 01:22:11 PM

Diablo 3 also followed up Diablo 2, which hit the atmosphere nail on the head and kept the store sort of simultaneously minimal (not in your face), but ubiquitous if you were interested in it.  Diablo 3 just sort slams plot point after plot point at you ever 5 minutes.  If they had the same story line and just cut down the number of in game cut scenes and required dialog I had to spam spacebar through, no one would have said anything about it.

Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #183 on: April 19, 2014, 01:32:47 PM

there's plenty of worse stories all over the place

That is the worst story in a game I've played. Hands down not even close. Maybe I don't play as many awful games as you (quite possible) but I've never been hit over the head over and over by how stupid a story is as I was in d3.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Fordel
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Reply #184 on: April 19, 2014, 01:39:28 PM

What the hell are you guys arguing about?

Metzen writes the lore and the lore is garbage. That's the full story.

The question is if the lore was always garbage, and how much Metzen was or wasn't involved in the lore that might not have been garbage.


But yeah, the lore is now garbage, and he is responsible for that.  So who cares about the past?


It's always been bad, we were just 12 when things like War2/SC1/Diablo were rolling around. SC1/BroodWars story reminds me a lot of Dragonlance, where I have a lot of fond memories that were best left as memories, because these things do not stand the test of time.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Margalis
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Reply #185 on: April 19, 2014, 02:41:25 PM

Diablo 3 also followed up Diablo 2, which hit the atmosphere nail on the head and kept the store sort of simultaneously minimal (not in your face), but ubiquitous if you were interested in it. Diablo 3 just sort slams plot point after plot point at you ever 5 minutes.  If they had the same story line and just cut down the number of in game cut scenes and required dialog I had to spam spacebar through, no one would have said anything about it.

Blizzard games suffer similarly to Square games (or Kojima ones) in that increased expressiveness due to technical and budgetary changes have made things worse, and the question becomes if they were ever good was it because the constraints kept them in check?

In a lot of old games the story works because it's told in short broad strokes, but an exploded version of that no longer works.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 08:13:47 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Venkman
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Reply #186 on: April 19, 2014, 04:41:08 PM

However, I'm 40 this year, I shouldn't be the target market.

I don't know about that. The kids who grew up on the NES and other early consoles are now around their thirties / forties. While the 18-25 demographic has traditionally been chased as the market with disposable cash, most people I know that age are broke ass college students, or just plain broke. Middle age people have money, and are a more known quantity to market to than fickle kids. I can see HotS being a fine DotA/LoL stand in for the non-Mountain Dew fueled market.

Core video game average age has been inching up passed the mid-30s for a couple of years. You might still get some 18-25ers, but I very much doubt they're ditching their $130,000 student loans to blow off classes just to play Sonic on the Genesis. More likely they've dumped some dollars into Clash of Clans or whatever while commuting between job and class.

But then, eSports aren't about the competitors. They're about the spectators. That's where the importance of the 18-25 guy is. They're old enough to know they couldn't possibly play as well as the eSports players, but do enjoy playing some of the games themselves and love watching pros go at it. While being served ads.

They are also savvy enough to know they can't compete without compete changes in lifestyles they already know they won't be making. But having grown up on video games instead of flag football, fast forward 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised if eSports is a big deal. Maybe not NFL big deal, and certainly not FIFA big deal. But something anyway.

As to HoTS, it feels like a game for people who heard only the bad things about MOBAs but were curious enough to give it a shot. Nothing wrong with that. It's just not going to monetize anywhere near the same way nor same amount, so therefore should neither be designed to, nor compared against the professional ones.
Setanta
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Reply #187 on: April 20, 2014, 02:39:48 AM

It's always been bad, we were just 12 when things like War2/SC1/Diablo were rolling around. SC1/BroodWars story reminds me a lot of Dragonlance, where I have a lot of fond memories that were best left as memories, because these things do not stand the test of time.

*noflame*

You mean at 46 I shouldn't have re-read the 2 Dragonlance trilogies? Damn - and I enjoyed revisiting them too. Then again, I caught myself re-reading a ton of old sci-fi including the Amtrak Wars and old Heinlein novels too. I replayed SC1/BW a year or so ago and had fun following the story. To be honest, I felt it held up a lot better than the SC2 storyline. Maybe I just like to hold on to times where innocent storylines were fun to engage with.

WC2 and D2 I agree with. If it wasn't for the cutscenes then I wouldn't have thought there was a story there.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Malakili
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Reply #188 on: April 20, 2014, 02:57:31 AM

Well, Margalis is kind of right.  Part of what made Starcraft and Diablo (1 and 2) work was their simplicity.  The difference between Diablo 1 and 2, and then Diablo 3 is enormous.  Diablo 1 and 2 had simple stories, you're a hero - go kill the big baddie who is trying to take over the world.  That's all you need in that type of game.  Diablo 3 is a maze of convoluted garbage by comparison.

Starcraft had a little more going on.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 08:31:19 AM by Malakili »
Rendakor
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Reply #189 on: April 20, 2014, 07:36:00 AM

It's not just that those stories were simple though; D2 and SC1 both had a couple cool moments in the story that I still remember today. Also, the quality of the cutscenes in those games was really impressive for their time. This latest generation of gaming has raised the bar to the point that none of the cinematics in D3 stand out.

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Merusk
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Reply #190 on: April 20, 2014, 07:53:39 AM

It's not just that those stories were simple though; D2 and SC1 both had a couple cool moments in the story that I still remember today. Also, the quality of the cutscenes in those games was really impressive for their time. This latest generation of gaming has raised the bar to the point that none of the cinematics in D3 stand out.

We're to the point that you're only ever going to see marginal gains in rendering due to the technology advances. Blizzard was known for dedicating all kinds of ridiculous time to weeks worth renders and modeling that can be done in a few days by undergrad students with the tools out there now.  Their cinematics are never going to stand out in todays field for rendering prowess, meaning they have to rely on actual direction and story boarding.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Malakili
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Reply #191 on: April 20, 2014, 08:33:07 AM

True, those cinematics in Blizzard games were always cutting edge.  But still, think about your average Diablo 2 Act compared to your average Diablo 3 act.  Diablo 2 basically just lets you play, and if you want to stop by for some extra exposition, ok.  Diablo 3 stops the gameplay flat every 10 minutes to tell you something you don't care about to begin with.
Margalis
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Reply #192 on: April 20, 2014, 03:41:46 PM

It's not just that those stories were simple though; D2 and SC1 both had a couple cool moments in the story that I still remember today.

When you have a pretty simple story simply told it allows for moments of punctuation that are harder to pull of when you have a much larger volume to begin with.

These modern Blizzard games are like modern Square games, with just too much repetitive stuff none of which matters. I tried playing FFXIII-2 and the "plot" is just a series of random events I don't give a shit about, and the dialogue is just "Lightning Lightning future Lightning paradox Lighting Lighting Snow Lightning" every 5 minutes. I don't like any of the characters so what they say and what happens doesn't matter anyway. The game would be a lot better if they just cut the story by 80%.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Maven
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Reply #193 on: April 20, 2014, 06:15:47 PM

By sticking to broad stroke story-telling (I like that assessment), Blizzard keeps people away from just how absurd the whole thing is, and allows their other talents to shine. Unfortunately, by giving the fans more, they have, I presume, significantly reduced the appeal of their properties.

They built fan-beloved worlds on excellent moments, scenes that were dramatic, impactful, and resonated strongly with a large audience because, stylistically, they are presented as such. But their work isn't *about* anything except This Looks / Is Cool. This was a company founded by comic book geeks. Every attempt to make their characters more complex and human, their stories more meaningful has and will fail because that comic book mentality is in the DNA of everything narrative that Blizzard touches.

I don't even need to get into the demands of their brand requiring the preservation of a status quo toxic to progression and evolution of the world, or how the format of video games permanently hamstrings the capabilities of the work to tell a story that is about something other than saving the world.
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #194 on: April 20, 2014, 06:57:55 PM

There's a reason you don't see Jack Bauer taking a dump in 24.

The problem with D3 was the characters took dumps everywhere.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
HaemishM
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Reply #195 on: April 21, 2014, 09:51:07 AM

The game would be a lot better if they just cut the story by 80%.

If 13-2 is anything like Final Fantasy XII-1, they'd do better if they cut the gameplay by 80% as well.

Maledict
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Reply #196 on: April 21, 2014, 09:59:53 AM

By sticking to broad stroke story-telling (I like that assessment), Blizzard keeps people away from just how absurd the whole thing is, and allows their other talents to shine. Unfortunately, by giving the fans more, they have, I presume, significantly reduced the appeal of their properties.

They built fan-beloved worlds on excellent moments, scenes that were dramatic, impactful, and resonated strongly with a large audience because, stylistically, they are presented as such. But their work isn't *about* anything except This Looks / Is Cool. This was a company founded by comic book geeks. Every attempt to make their characters more complex and human, their stories more meaningful has and will fail because that comic book mentality is in the DNA of everything narrative that Blizzard touches.

I don't even need to get into the demands of their brand requiring the preservation of a status quo toxic to progression and evolution of the world, or how the format of video games permanently hamstrings the capabilities of the work to tell a story that is about something other than saving the world.

I think they also suffer due to their love of putting the story and lore in non-game properties - if you don't read the books and novels that now accompany their games they seem even shitter than they are. The entire nephalem crap from D3 came from a series of truly terrible books, and WoWs lore is now nonsense unless you are reading the side-books.
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #197 on: April 21, 2014, 10:58:25 AM

Ah yes, the novelization of terrible story lines. The worst of all cash grabs.

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Samprimary
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Reply #198 on: April 22, 2014, 07:14:37 AM

there's plenty of worse stories all over the place

That is the worst story in a game I've played. Hands down not even close. Maybe I don't play as many awful games as you (quite possible) but I've never been hit over the head over and over by how stupid a story is as I was in d3.

Yeah I think one of the uniquely hate-inspiring parts of Diablo 3 was that it was designed in a way which repeatedly hammered your head against the bad. Even in HOTS you could just move straight from the campaign to multiplayer and custom games where various synthesized voices weren't constantly hissing and screeching PRIMAL ESSESESNSNNSCESS PRIMAL in your ear every second.

Whereas with D3 when being played as ... uh, essentially intended, you were doing constant nephalem valor reruns of the exact same areas over and over. I went from inferno butcher runs (shut up, maghda. shut up) to inferno act 3 runs, where the game was constantly sandblasting your ears with azmodan's FOOLISH NEPHALIM! ARROGANT NEPHALIM! ARROGANT AND i do not hesitate to add ALSO ARROGANT NEPHALIM!

it was inescapable grinding through grindingly repetitious dullardry, at least until you turned off all ingame voices or something, or just quit playing
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #199 on: April 24, 2014, 09:54:22 AM

I think that was my main issue with the D3 story, that the whole nephalim thing seemed to come out of right field with little to no explanation.  "btw nephalim is a thing and you are one, don't ask"  was the tone of the game.  I don't think the action was slowed down terribly by the dialogues but the content of those dialogues was so meaningless and filler that it made them tedious. 

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
K9
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Reply #200 on: April 24, 2014, 10:14:24 AM

I played the whole game through and I never figured out what a nephalem was, or why it mattered.

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K9
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Reply #201 on: April 24, 2014, 10:15:37 AM

Also, while I'm still seeing a ton of Hearthstone coverage on Youtube, I'm seeing dick in terms of Heroes of the Storm. Interest seems to have died down to nonexistence.

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Rasix
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Reply #202 on: April 24, 2014, 10:16:36 AM

First game where I've used the "auto skip cutscenes" option.   awesome, for real

Also, while I'm still seeing a ton of Hearthstone coverage on Youtube, I'm seeing dick in terms of Heroes of the Storm. Interest seems to have died down to nonexistence.

It's boring as shit to watch.  The real coveted streamers for this title, LoL pros, are contractually prohibited from playing it on stream.  So, you mostly have a bunch of Starcraft 2 streamers and Blizzard friendly internet personalities with access at this point, and they really wont draw viewers.  

I think this game might be too simple to create any sort of professional scene and draw people away from LoL or DOTA2.  Without the pro scene, the streaming community probably will not gather any sort of significant viewership.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:21:39 AM by Rasix »

-Rasix
Trippy
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Reply #203 on: April 25, 2014, 02:37:50 PM

I played the whole game through and I never figured out what a nephalem was, or why it mattered.
That was explained in the optional conservations and the lore scrolls that you can find.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #204 on: April 26, 2014, 04:06:28 AM

There are lore scrolls about nephalim in actIV yes, I'm not sure where the optional conversations are but for most of the game it's just assumed you know wtf they are talking about.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Malakili
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Reply #205 on: April 26, 2014, 04:33:54 AM

There's a little bit in act 1 around the time you are going to the temple I think.  I didn't really know or care what it was until I read plot summaries elsewhere.

Leave it to Blizzard to take a setting about going down into hell and fighting a demon into a setting about how humans are the descendants of half demon/half angels.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 11:12:38 AM by Malakili »
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #206 on: April 26, 2014, 09:23:23 AM

There's a little bit in act 1 around the time you are going to the temple I think.  I didn't really know or care what it was until I read plot summaries elsewhere.

Leave it to Blizzard to take a setting about going down into hell and fighting a demon into a setting about how humans are the descendants or half demon/half angels.

They could have even had nephalim in the game without it being you but no you gotta be the super special chosen one.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Maven
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Reply #207 on: April 27, 2014, 07:09:23 AM

Telling its customers they're special and different from everyone (and, perhaps, everyone else is inferior to them) are core values of Blizzard's business. (Only half-joking)

I sat in the audience of BlizzCon and watched Paul Sams fuel the collective ego of its fanbase. Blizzard knows what its devoted want. Empowerment and praise.
Rendakor
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Reply #208 on: April 27, 2014, 07:12:03 AM

It could've been worse: the nephalem could have been some badass, greenskinned NPC that you had to just follow around, watching him do all the cool shit.

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Typhon
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Reply #209 on: April 27, 2014, 08:01:21 AM

Blizzard didn't make up the Nephilim, it's a Judeo Christian thing that they modified to fit in the world of Sanctuary.

Don't get me wrong, the story and the implementation of the story suck.  But I think that particular story element was one of the most well thought out.  It borrows from the traditions that are thematically in keeping with those chosen for Sanctuary (Angels and Demons), and modifies it to fit the cosmology of this world.  There's so much else to be annoyed with in the story, choosing the Nephalem back story as a target for rancor seems... odd.
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