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Author Topic: Bitch Thread for Warlords of Draenor  (Read 484762 times)
Ragnoros
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Reply #700 on: May 01, 2014, 01:14:41 AM

Twice as much loot is an issue. I'm not sure they understand how many people play LFR and that's it. If they make it so LFR is just two entries and you have full gear? Those people aren't suddenly going to wander into flex, no matter how many options you give them to find a standard group. They'll just get bored and unsub.

This is the wall they would have run into regardless, now they just hit it twice as fast. It's possible that without spending so much time in a raid via LFR that they burn out on it, players will be more interested in stepping up to Flex after they finish gearing in LFR, especially with the new grouping tools making it only slightly harder than queuing for LFR. The purpose of LFR has always been advertised as "see the content regardless of your schedule", so doubling the loot drop rate seems in-line with that goal.

tl'dr. I agree with Rokal for once.
Speaking from my own experience--I subbed to MoP for about three months over the winter--yes, LFR was cool in that I (for the first time ever) got to kill the final boss and see the content blizz cares so much about and works so hard on (+ phat lewt). However, for once, I think blizz hit it on the head with their upcoming changes.

After two or three runs of LFR it gets boring, after two months it's just a total burn out. Having each run be a total crap shoot on whether you get geared, competent raiders, or afk healers sucks hard. I actually got into a regular raiding guild for the first time ever after a couple months subbed thanks to filling a tank role for one of those random pickup flex groups, but at that point I was just totally burnt out on the whole raid thing from doing it for two months with annoying pubbies, and the fact I was doing it with non-facerollers didn't matter. Plus even after two months I still had not got a stam trinket, thus pushing me to run LFR more in the hopes of getting one. LFR should be a quick, fun, whirlwind tour, not an aggravating yet mandatory feeling grind.

Being able to get geared in a week or two from LFR than transitioning into an actual raiding with people one actually likes would do wonders for both fun and retention. At least in my case.

Owls are an example of evolution showing off. -Shannow

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Zetor
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Reply #701 on: May 01, 2014, 01:48:44 AM

I maintain that LFR can be fun... if you play a healer. When you get 'those' groups (only one tank, tank is wearing unenchanted/ungemmed pvp gear, dps queuing as healers, nobody following mechanics) it can be an intense healing challenge to keep everyone alive.

I haven't really tanked any LFRs in MOP, but my experience with tanking LFRs in Cata leads me to believe it's the worst of both worlds -- if you don't do everything perfectly with 100% pre-knowledge of each fight, you may wipe and there'll be a lot of trashtalk; on the flipside, even if you do everything right, the group will probably still wipe if the dps is totally incompetent. Doing LFRs as dps is just boring (maybe except for being the only person who actually deals with mechanics like the ghosts in the spiritbinder fight).

luckton
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Reply #702 on: May 01, 2014, 05:40:29 AM

They are taking away set bonuses, trinkets, and basically making loot a completely separate item from other parts of raiding. They didn't do that with LFR before. It was lower levels of the same gear, but it still had the same bonuses and looks as the real deal.

Then by doubling the loot, they are effectively making it the new welfare epics. It's putting in a divide because they don't want LFR people to feel like they've done what real raiders are doing. It just reeks of epeen from the hardcore, especially with the art decisions.

Basically if they are going to do that with LFR in the hopes that people gear up for real raids, they might as well remove LFR and cut out the middle man. I think they honestly want to do that. I've wanted to do that in the past. If it's not equal, and you want flex raiding to be the thing, make it the thing. This approach just seems dickish and half-assed. The whole decision making process seems like they are trying to marginalize LFR because the hardcores didn't like doing it, and didn't like seeing people in easy purples like theirs.

If they want to do the storyline thing, just do it via scenarios.

They want LFR to be two things:

- A way for casuals to see content/lorelol
- Training wheels for the actual raid.

LFR gear was already separate from regular and heroic gear in that it was weaker; gear will still have relative ilvls to normal as LFR has to normal now.  I could care less about set bonuses, and they're not removing trinkets.

I agree with you that they're adding a divide between LFR and regular raiding.  There should be one, IMO, because they're not the same thing.  The extra mechanics and difficulty in Normal would break many LFR types, and I don't believe that those peeps should be rewarded as awesomely as a regular raider.  I say this, again, as a guy with two jobs and a family of four to take care of.  I just don't have the time anymore for 2-4 hour nightly teeth gnashing sessions.  So I spend my free time when I can plowing through LFR.  The peeps that invest more time should be awarded justly, and I don't believe that my 30 minutes of /facerolling LFR nerfed encounters, esp. when I arrive on the scene and the group already has 3+ stacks of Determination, should be rewarding me stuff that's too similar to what people who invested more time and effort than me are getting.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Paelos
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Reply #703 on: May 01, 2014, 06:23:40 AM

They weren't being rewarded as awesomely. They were being rewarded with lower ilvl pieces of the same gear. The cosmetic change is what gets me. There's no reason for it other than butthurt.

I agree that's what THEY want LFR to be. For one thing, I'm not sure that's what the players want out of LFR, second I don't think LFR will achieve that goal. It's not going to make people suddenly want to schedule their life to a game. I don't think that the reason many people don't raid is because they don't know anybody, don't have a guild, or don't have the access to forums to see about raids.

Also, they said in the post, "The gear will fall in between dungeon loot and Normal mode raid loot in terms of power, as it does today, but without the set bonuses and specific trinkets that tend to make raiders feel like they need to run Raid Finder alongside their weekly guild raids today."

Now does that mean they are removing trinkets? I can't say for sure, but at the minimum they won't be useful trinkets if they do exist. So the real raiders don't have to get their poor abused panties in a bunch over touching the plebs to get a trinket.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:25:43 AM by Paelos »

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Draegan
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Reply #704 on: May 01, 2014, 07:03:42 AM

The players they want don't exist in the numbers they once did. The players they want are me when I was in my mid 20s with no other obligations.

This is probably true since most early WOW players came off of EQ or heard of EQ or were influenced by early WOW players.
luckton
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Reply #705 on: May 01, 2014, 07:12:19 AM

They weren't being rewarded as awesomely. They were being rewarded with lower ilvl pieces of the same gear. The cosmetic change is what gets me. There's no reason for it other than butthurt.

I agree that's what THEY want LFR to be. For one thing, I'm not sure that's what the players want out of LFR, second I don't think LFR will achieve that goal. It's not going to make people suddenly want to schedule their life to a game. I don't think that the reason many people don't raid is because they don't know anybody, don't have a guild, or don't have the access to forums to see about raids.

Also, they said in the post, "The gear will fall in between dungeon loot and Normal mode raid loot in terms of power, as it does today, but without the set bonuses and specific trinkets that tend to make raiders feel like they need to run Raid Finder alongside their weekly guild raids today."

Now does that mean they are removing trinkets? I can't say for sure, but at the minimum they won't be useful trinkets if they do exist. So the real raiders don't have to get their poor abused panties in a bunch over touching the plebs to get a trinket.

The cosmetic and set changes are to encourage those that want the fancy tier suits to strive and better their game.  If you want to see it as butthurt, that's, like, your opinion, man. 

Dungeon trinkets were fine in their day.  Hell, the Mech. Drakling that you could fit with cogs that were usable by anyone was my fav trinket of 5.0. 

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Draegan
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Reply #706 on: May 01, 2014, 07:54:20 AM

Paelos wants everyone to get a trophy. It's shitty game design, but whatever. It's World of Warcraft and it's a decade old at this point.
Paelos
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Reply #707 on: May 01, 2014, 08:05:00 AM

Paelos wants everyone to get a trophy. It's shitty game design, but whatever. It's World of Warcraft and it's a decade old at this point.

It's not shitty game design because all the trophies are pointless. So why not hand them out and make money hand over fist?

People weren't running away from the game in droves when they opened the raiding floodgates in Wrath, and everyone was able to get into normal versions of raids.

I don't like LFR, but if they want to include it, they need to treat it like a tier. If they don't want to do that, just cut it. I honestly don't care what the baseline is, but I think they've terrified of cutting it because so many people like it. So instead, they'll just treat those people like second-class citizens in the hopes they'll pull themselves up to the next level by their bootstraps. That's awesome game design right there.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
apocrypha
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Reply #708 on: May 01, 2014, 08:13:43 AM

I think they've terrified of cutting it because so many people like it.

Damn them for giving people fun things to, in a variety of different ways to suit everyone's schedule. Damn them! *shakes fist*

I have no interest in WoD personally, but really Paelos, you are tilting at windmills here. If all you want to do is LFR then you really won't miss a set bonus that you would probably only have got months into the expansion anyway. If you want to do flex/normal then you'll get your set bonuses.

And be honest, you'd probably transmog your raid gear anyway so who gives a shit about it being a different colour?

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Paelos
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Reply #709 on: May 01, 2014, 08:26:08 AM

Here's the thing. They've said in the past they wanted to have different progressions for people. They discussed the idea and tried to implement some progressions in the dungeon running game for people that didn't want to raid.

Then came LFR. Now dungeons are basically a side-show, scenarios are the new thing they seem to be focused on from a small content perspective, and LFR is the low bar of progression for the people that don't like to raid.

If they just make a quick clowngear run for the ghetto suits, do you think the people will stick around and raid higher tiers? Or will they say, meh I killed that big bad guy and I'll just unsub until the next patch?

I think they are giving their playerbase way too much credit about how they play. It's a bad design decision because if they want to be hardcore, delete LFR. If they want to be inclusive, keep LFR as a tier like it is. This is in the middle, and serves no real purpose other than to confuse the issue.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Draegan
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Reply #710 on: May 01, 2014, 09:00:34 AM

I still don't see what you're complaining about other than LFR doesn't get set bonuses and their gear looks shittier. The game has different tiered content with different rewards and access ranges from keyboard turners and afkers to poopsockers.
luckton
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Reply #711 on: May 05, 2014, 06:22:01 PM

For me and other two people still playing/plan to play WoD, relevant info:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/14014199/siege-of-orgrimmar-changes-in-patch-60-and-warlords-of-draenor-5-5-2014

Quote
In the recent Dev Watercooler: Raiding Azeroth Part 3—Warlords of Draenor, we discussed some of the raid changes coming in the next WoW expansion. Before Warlords of Draenor launches, players will have a chance to experience the new raid structure firsthand in the Siege of Orgrimmar.

In the upcoming Patch 6.0, the pre-expansion “systems” update planned to go live in the weeks leading up to Warlords of Draenor’s release, we’ll be converting Siege of Orgrimmar to use the new Normal, Heroic, and Mythic difficulties. Both Normal and Heroic difficulties will support flexible raid sizes and our cross-server Group Finder tool, while Mythic will be a fixed 20-player size. At the same time, “stat squish” will be in effect, the new class changes will be live, and Hit and Expertise will no longer be stats on items, so those will be replaced with more useful ones on all existing items. The raid as a whole will be retuned for the new numbers and scaling size—overall, it should prove no more difficult than it is currently, and will likely be easier in many places.

With the end of an expansion and a raid tier, along with introduction of a new level cap, we’ll also be retiring a handful of rewards. We want to encourage everyone to enjoy one last hurrah in the Siege of Orgrimmar before your adventure on Draenor begins.

In addition to the above changes, when Patch 6.0 arrives:

Flexible Raid difficulty will cease to exist as it does now, and will be removed from the raid queue interface. The new Normal difficulty of Siege of Orgrimmar will offer a similar experience to that of Flexible Raid.
The new Group Finder tool will be available, designed to help players create and find groups for Normal and Heroic Siege of Orgrimmar and other cross-realm group content.
Siege of Orgrimmar achievements will be relabeled according to the new difficulty structure (e.g. “Heroic: Malkorok” will now be “Mythic: Malkorok”). Credit for these will be retroactively awarded to players who earned them before Patch 6.0.
The Garrosh Hellscream “Ahead of the Curve” and “Cutting Edge” Feats of Strength will cease to be obtainable.
This means that the Kor’kron War Wolf, awarded by the “Ahead of the Curve” Feat of Strength, will also cease to be obtainable upon release of the pre-expansion Patch 6.0.
With the release of Patch 6.0, the drop rate of the Heirloom weapons from Garrosh Hellscream on Normal, Heroic, and Mythic difficulties will be significantly increased.
Players who have yet to get any Heirlooms will have a 100% (guaranteed) chance of getting a spec-appropriate Heirloom when defeating Garrosh on Normal difficulty or higher.
The chance of receiving additional Heirlooms beyond the first will also be increased.

When Warlords of Draenor is released and players are able to head to Draenor and level past 90:

Garrosh Hellscream will no longer drop Heirloom weapons.
The Kor’kron Juggernaut mount will cease being a guaranteed drop from Mythic Garrosh Hellscream, and will instead become a rare drop (like Invincible’s Reins, Mimiron’s Head, etc.).

All other loot, achievements, and cosmetic rewards (e.g. the Kor’kron Dark Shaman transmog set, rare battle pets, etc.) will remain unchanged.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Soulflame
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Reply #712 on: May 06, 2014, 08:12:48 AM

So.  How long until Flexible Raids are back.

It's utterly fascinating seeing them continuously take steps backwards, after fleeing populations force them to make changes in an effort to keep those that are left.
luckton
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Reply #713 on: May 06, 2014, 08:47:02 AM

So.  How long until Flexible Raids are back.

wut?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Mithas
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Reply #714 on: May 06, 2014, 08:48:44 AM

Wait. They are taking flex raids out? I thought they were hugely popular and very successful?
Paelos
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Reply #715 on: May 06, 2014, 08:53:29 AM

Guys, no. They are making normal raids the new flex. All the normal raids have the flex ruleset of 10-25 players.

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luckton
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Reply #716 on: May 06, 2014, 09:43:05 AM

Guys, no. They are making normal raids the new flex. All the normal raids have the flex ruleset of 10-25 players.

Thus the "wut?". People need to read shit before they start hemhawing about shit.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Ragnoros
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Reply #717 on: May 06, 2014, 01:20:01 PM


Owls are an example of evolution showing off. -Shannow

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #718 on: May 06, 2014, 01:22:24 PM

Ah I see your issue.  it's the new raiding line up says 10-25 meaning anywhere between 10 and 25 people, not 10 OR 25.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #719 on: May 07, 2014, 06:55:30 AM

What's silly is they're going from four categories to four categories.  There was no reason to change the name and confuse people.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Mithas
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Reply #720 on: May 07, 2014, 07:19:15 AM

I also read they weren't going to be using scenarios for group content. There goes another thing that I liked. My limited playtime made scenarios perfect for me. Plus most of them were fun.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #721 on: May 07, 2014, 08:10:06 AM

What's silly is they're going from four categories to four categories.  There was no reason to change the name and confuse people.

It's going from six to four.  Currently it's...

Raid finder
Flex
Norm 10
Norm 25
Heroic 10
Heroic 25

They are throwing out the term 'flex' since all but mythic are flex now it's redundant.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Lantyssa
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Reply #722 on: May 07, 2014, 12:27:10 PM

Norm 10 and Norm 25 going to Norm 10-25 is the same difficulty without a fixed number of people.  Same with Heroic.  If the name of Flex was a problem then they should have just changed it's name to Potty Training or something.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Paelos
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Reply #723 on: May 07, 2014, 12:34:06 PM

They figured out that flex was what, hell people like me have been asking for since 2010. The rigid numbers on raiding were alway a problem.

The fact they drug their feet this long to get to a really good idea is frustrating, considering the losses they had in the meantime. I doubt I would have quit Cataclysm if flex existed.

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Rokal
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Reply #724 on: May 07, 2014, 01:50:32 PM

Norm 10 and Norm 25 going to Norm 10-25 is the same difficulty without a fixed number of people.  Same with Heroic.  If the name of Flex was a problem then they should have just changed it's name to Potty Training or something.

Why would they continue to call it Flex when Normal and Heroic are both adopting the "Flexible" grouping model that the name is based on?
Azazel
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Reply #725 on: May 08, 2014, 03:22:35 AM

They are going to get blowtorched over that decision if they follow through with no flying.

Considering they've been selling flying ponies for cash, they are completely fucking those paying customers over. I don't think that's a group you want to mess with.

No flying?

Fuck that. No buying expansion.

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Hutch
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Reply #726 on: May 08, 2014, 04:08:06 AM

The Blizzard of today puts me in mind of Brann Bronzebeard in WotLK. He, too, wanted to tinker with the machines that were built by his betters, long ago. He, too, pushed buttons and pulled levers, without understanding what they did. And he, too, acted all surprised when the floor caught on fire.

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Haven't you noticed? We've been sharing our culture with you all morning.
The sun will shine on us again, brother
Maven
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Reply #727 on: May 09, 2014, 01:31:38 AM

That is a brilliant analogy.
Wizgar
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Reply #728 on: May 12, 2014, 12:36:51 AM

No flying?

Fuck that. No buying expansion.

I'm going to enjoy the inevitable humiliating backdown from Blizzard on this.
Soulflame
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Reply #729 on: May 12, 2014, 08:24:57 AM

Unless they specifically model the terrain to allow for flying, they won't allow flying.  Since they're not allowing flying, there's no reason to expect they are spending money on creating assets in such a way that they work for flying players.

At best, they might allow flying in a few expansions, when they drastically revamp the entire leveling flow.  Again.
Rendakor
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Reply #730 on: May 12, 2014, 09:08:36 AM

It's possible that the outcry will be so great that the first major content patch for WoD will be adding flying instead of new raids.

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Rokal
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Reply #731 on: May 12, 2014, 09:20:28 AM

Fun article on the Tier 0.5 quests if you want to take a nostalgia trip today:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/11/wow-archivist-tier-0-5-and-the-birth-of-modern-dungeons/
luckton
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Reply #732 on: May 12, 2014, 09:50:31 AM

Fun article on the Tier 0.5 quests if you want to take a nostalgia trip today:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/11/wow-archivist-tier-0-5-and-the-birth-of-modern-dungeons/

Ah man, that was the best patch ever  awesome, for real

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Zetor
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Reply #733 on: May 12, 2014, 11:40:14 AM

Fun article on the Tier 0.5 quests if you want to take a nostalgia trip today:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/11/wow-archivist-tier-0-5-and-the-birth-of-modern-dungeons/
Man, those memories. I remember our (non-raid) guild running TWO groups through the entire storyline... oh, the laughs, and the tears (like when we tried to do 45min strat with no physical damage classes). Some of the best times I ever had in WOW!

Rokal
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Reply #734 on: May 12, 2014, 11:58:13 AM

I don't think I did any steps past Baron 45. From what I remember, the gold costs got really steep the further you got into the quest and eventually I couldn't afford them. This was back in Vanilla where the best source of gold if you didn't want to play the AH was farming Tyr's Hand mobs mindlessly.

Still, pretty cool to have it all laid out in retrospect. The legendary cloak quest in MoP was probably as close as they've come since Vanilla to making a quest line that was this complex, but it really didn't evoke the same feeling. It was too stream-lined, too much "progress this quest by doing stuff you were already doing".
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