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Author Topic: Season 4 Stuffs  (Read 7268 times)
luckton
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on: October 30, 2013, 02:32:12 AM

Quote
Hey everyone,

FeralPony here to run through some high level changes coming this preseason that fall under a topic we're calling “Game Flow.” Game Flow is effectively how the core game functions and plays independently of specific roles, champions, items, etc. It's how the minions move, gold enters and leaves the map, objectives are created, and how strategic battles are won and lost. It's the systems in place that aren’t under direct player control.

So what does it include? Here's a look at some of the changes we'll be implementing this preseason:

Kill/assist gold
Game and objective timings (when things spawn etc)
Objective values/rewards (Turrets, Baron, Dragon, etc)
Experience
Inhibitor mechanics
Death timers
Map layout & brush changes
Jungle (this is a large enough system it'll be included in another post)

Tons of Changes!
You might be saying, “By the factions of Runeterra, Pony, that's a lot of changes!” You'd be absolutely correct, but the bulk of these are small changes meant to enhance other aspects of the game. Each of these changes have unique goals that I’d like to provide additional insight into.

Objectives
We’re making some adjustments to global objectives in Summoner’s Rift.

Dragon: The gold and experience rewards for slaying Dragon will now increase over time.

In the preseason, securing dragon will remain a worthwhile objective even into late game. In addition, dragon will provide more experience rewards for teams down in levels, making it a valuable objective for those who are losing heavily. Winning teams will want to keep dragon secured to retain their lead.

Baron: Baron buff is being shifted away from a team fighting bonus and towards more of a sieging bonus (think bonus movement speed or bonus damage to turrets)

We wanted to shift Baron buff away from an overpowering team-wide buff that gives the buffed team an advantage in any situation. Instead, we want to clarify Baron buff as a window of opportunity to end the game.

Turrets: The team-wide gold for destroying turrets is going down, but the gold given to the players directly responsible for destroying turrets is going up. (Misaya mentioned he thought turret rewards were based off of damage contribution / assists, but it just grants local gold for anyone in the general area)

This change rewards players directly for taking positive action instead of diffusing the reward by splitting it up among their teammates.

Super Minions & Inhibitors: Downed inhibitors will no longer make all minions stronger. Instead, minions in lanes with downed inhibitors will now push harder than before, while minions in other lanes will be unaffected.

Clarity was the core goal here. Currently when a single inhibitor goes down it causes all minions on the winning side of the map to become stronger, thereby pushing down their lanes as well. This applies pressure to the defending team, but also allows players on that team to farm the pushed lanes in relative safety and possibly pick up a game-changing item or two. That said, it’s still very difficult to come back from a downed inhibitor because even after a great comeback play, the resurging team must still push out ALL of their lanes before the enemy team respawns. We’d like to give teams that make these epic plays a real shot at making a comeback.

Other underlying systems:
In addition to the changes we’re making to global objectives, we have some smaller changes to other underlying game systems:

Bounty Calculations: We mentioned this earlier in our support post, but we’re adding “assist streaks,” where players who have far more assists than kills will get bonus gold per additional assist. Additionally, we’re changing the way death streaks are reset. Previously, they were based only on kills and assists, but we’re looking into ways to tie in other forms of contribution. Finally, we’re also looking at bounty rewards in general and how much of an impact they have in the early game versus the mid to late game.

Minion and Jungle Spawn Timers: All minions and jungle camps will spawn earlier in the game.

We’re experimenting with shaving a little time off of when minions and jungle camps spawn to get the game off to an earlier start. There was just too much idle time in between loading the match and the first moments of action. Our changes here allow almost every opening strategy to remain viable without being too generous for map-wide team shuffles.

Brush Changes: We’re cleaning up a lot of the L- and C-shaped brush formations so that players can gain vision of the entire brush with one ward.

In the jungle, this means more accessible sight lines for both ward vision and anyone attempting to move through the jungle.

We’ve also dialed back on some brush that we felt created odd combat situations. We saw situations before where one ward in one brush would leave fights stacked enormously in the favor of the team with the ward. We’ve trimmed back the brush in these regions to still allow for sight lines to be blocked and for melee champions to have a tactical zone to hide in, but brush no longer denies vision to entire battlefields when unwarded.

That’s about it for Game Flow! Some of these changes may be small, but we think that when taken together they’ll play a big role in making for a more dynamic and exciting preseason.

FeralPony

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1ph8kv/an_introduction_to_game_flow_changes_this/

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
ezrast
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Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 02:48:21 AM

I had no idea downing inhibitors made all lanes stronger. I always attributed the pushing effect to the super minions getting into the base and drawing aggro on the enemy's side lane minions at the spawn... even in situations where I otherwise could have sworn that our supers hadn't actually gotten into their base. Good to know I don't suck at map awareness as much as I thought.
HaemishM
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Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 07:54:38 AM

I'm the same way - didn't know downed inhibs caused all minions to get stronger. I'm not sure, but I think I like the idea of turret killers getting more gold. It definitely rewards lane aggression.

Draegan
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Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 06:50:27 AM

Lane aggression is already rewarded. This is just their attempt at keeping full team snowballs and slowing down one team getting really behind on gold from a few turret kills.

Not sure how I feel about it too, but it's an interesting change.
Goumindong
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Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 12:48:24 PM

Actually its a change to try and get people to stop chasing and instead go after objectives. By increasing the personal reward for taking a tower it makes it easier, individually, to stop chasing that enemy who is worth 1 kill and get the tower which is worth 1 kill as well.
Draegan
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Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 06:29:44 AM

Actually its a change to try and get people to stop chasing and instead go after objectives. By increasing the personal reward for taking a tower it makes it easier, individually, to stop chasing that enemy who is worth 1 kill and get the tower which is worth 1 kill as well.

That may be part of it, but the devs have stated they want to keep teams from snowballing from rushing turrets.
MediumHigh
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Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 06:47:57 AM

Lolz it looks like Riot fiddling with the numbers hoping to find that lucky sweet spot where the game doesn't just snowball after 10 minutes.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
luckton
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Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 11:48:30 AM

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/26226-unofficial-pbe-patch-notes-for-10-31-2013-nasus-vu

Preseason Patch notes on PBE.  A crap-ton of changes.  Very exciting!

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Goumindong
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Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 12:25:33 PM

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/26226-unofficial-pbe-patch-notes-for-10-31-2013-nasus-vu

Preseason Patch notes on PBE.  A crap-ton of changes.  Very exciting!

Note that not all of the numbers are correct. In particular, Janna does not have .9 AP scaling on her AD bonus nor does she have .5% AP scaling on her passive move speed.

It would be hilarious if it were true though... 200 AP Janna would be +230 AD and +100% Move Speed
Nebu
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Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 02:28:03 PM

Is it me or did most support get nerfed?  I'm guessing that they are trying to make scaling on support more item based?

HELP me understand this stuff...

EDIT: Red the reddit post on the changes and it makes more sense now.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 02:57:22 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 02:32:08 PM

>Super Minions & Inhibitors: Downed inhibitors will no longer make all minions stronger. Instead, minions in lanes with downed inhibitors will now push harder than before, while minions in other lanes will be unaffected.

So lost games can drag on even longer fuck that
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 02:35:03 PM by tazelbain »

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Kail
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Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 03:03:44 PM

Is it me or did most support get nerfed?  I'm guessing that they are trying to make scaling on support more item based?

HELP me understand this stuff...

It's hard to tell without the numbers, but I think the idea is that supports are supposed to be getting more gold, so they're re-balancing them so that they don't become OP.  By itself, that seems kind of stupid (if Sona was capable of dealing over the top damage with a full build, we'd see her mid) so I think they're trying to shift it so that items also help with your support role (slows scaling with AP, that kind of thing).  So, theoretically, they get more items, but because their ratios are worse, it doesn't help them be better fighters, instead it improves their utility more.  Or something.

I dunno how it will balance out, I personally wouldn't mind seeing a bit more bite on some supports, so I'm not super thrilled, but I haven't seen it in action, maybe it'll work.
Goumindong
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Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 03:08:47 PM

Is it me or did most support get nerfed?  I'm guessing that they are trying to make scaling on support more item based?

HELP me understand this stuff...

EDIT: Red the reddit post on the changes and it makes more sense now.



The new income items are pretty significant especially combined with the supposed new gold masteries and assist streak gold. This will lead to supports having a lot more gold and so their old scaling would be very powerful compared to how strong they would get.

This is especially true of supports which dominate the laning phase.

Some supports scale very well with
Nebu
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Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 03:16:07 PM

I was more interested in the scaling changes.  Looks like shields are becoming more effective and heals less effective (Sona, taric, and soraka heals scales worse post patch for example).  Not sure why that decision was made.  Lulu got hit hard and Janna's passive got hit as well. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:18:41 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Goumindong
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Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 04:01:27 PM

I was more interested in the scaling changes.  Looks like shields are becoming more effective and heals less effective (Sona, taric, and soraka heals scales worse post patch for example).  Not sure why that decision was made.  Lulu got hit hard and Janna's passive got hit as well. 

Well Janna's passive was OP. And the scaling she gets is going to be hilarious.
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Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 05:57:06 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Kail
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Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 06:24:15 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Allegedly, vision mechanics are changing, which is one change I'm really hopeful about.  Each player has a max number of wards that can be deployed at once, and a free 1min ward dispensing item, so hopefully the cost of warding will be spread around the team a bit more evenly now.
luckton
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Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 06:29:04 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Not really.  Everyone's getting a 7th item slot that can hold one of three types of vision items.  The burden of vision will no longer be on support alone.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
luckton
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Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 06:32:19 PM

Also, I've resolved myself to not playing ranked until the new matchmaker comes out that lets me pre-choose my champ and role.  I don't care if it takes longer to get a match; at least I'll be doing what I'm good at.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
MediumHigh
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Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 06:38:00 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Not really.  Everyone's getting a 7th item slot that can hold one of three types of vision items.  The burden of vision will no longer be on support alone.

I don't think you guys get it. Spamming vision wards is premium job of support. Reduce the cost of getting a vision ward? Spam pink wards. It's about map control not being able to be useful beyond your crowd control or getting all your items.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Kail
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Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 08:10:16 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Not really.  Everyone's getting a 7th item slot that can hold one of three types of vision items.  The burden of vision will no longer be on support alone.

I don't think you guys get it. Spamming vision wards is premium job of support. Reduce the cost of getting a vision ward? Spam pink wards. It's about map control not being able to be useful beyond your crowd control or getting all your items.

I don't see how that would benefit anyone.  You've got a ward cap of one (1) pink ward.  There's no point in saving up thousands of gold to spam pinks when you can only have one down at a time.

And it's not like pink wards are the be all and end all now, either, since like 90% of what they were used to detect before was stealth wards.  Pink wards still reveal stealth wards, but stealth wards also reveal pink wards (since they're not invisible anymore).  If you drop a pink ward in front of dragon, and you don't control the area in front of dragon, that ward is dead the next time anyone wanders past since they can see it now, but if you drop a stealth ward, all you've got to do is keep the area clear of pink wards.
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Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 09:38:57 PM

When a team is snowballing the first thing they do is crowd out the map with pink wards. If riot wants to give more money to support you'll just see people plopping a pink ward on top of a regular sight ward. Controlling vision = Controlling the map = Safe and reliable way to slowly starve and extend your lead = Win. As support you can now, buy stealth wards, buy vision wards, buy oracles, purchase homeguard boots, rinse/repeat.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
ezrast
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Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 11:13:22 PM

I don't like that the ward limits are effectively a nerf to support (who else ever has more than three greens or one pink out?), especially since it's one of the aspects of the role I usually do a decent job of as-is. I do agree that pink wars are stupid though so I'm happy to see pinks be more of a 1-for-1 counter to greens.

The trinkets are very wtf, though. It's just another fiddly thing that will probably add no depth once the meta shakes out. My prediction: support buys lens for facechecking. Everyone else buys totem because fuck paying for wards. Nobody buys sweeper unless Teemo is in the game because it's easier to make the support spam pinks.
HaemishM
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Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 11:34:32 PM

Also, I've resolved myself to not playing ranked until the new matchmaker comes out that lets me pre-choose my champ and role.  I don't care if it takes longer to get a match; at least I'll be doing what I'm good at.

Where did they say that? Because that is so desperately needed, it's not even funny. The matchmaker should let you pick your role without that idiotic chat shuffle.

luckton
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Reply #24 on: November 02, 2013, 01:10:50 AM

Also, I've resolved myself to not playing ranked until the new matchmaker comes out that lets me pre-choose my champ and role.  I don't care if it takes longer to get a match; at least I'll be doing what I'm good at.

Where did they say that? Because that is so desperately needed, it's not even funny. The matchmaker should let you pick your role without that idiotic chat shuffle.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3951169

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Not really.  Everyone's getting a 7th item slot that can hold one of three types of vision items.  The burden of vision will no longer be on support alone.

I don't think you guys get it. Spamming vision wards is premium job of support. Reduce the cost of getting a vision ward? Spam pink wards. It's about map control not being able to be useful beyond your crowd control or getting all your items.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1p4u6i/sight_beyond_sight_an_introduction_to_preseason_4/

Pink wards are no longer invisible, and each player can only place one at a time.  Read the rest of the article for details.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
ezrast
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Reply #25 on: November 02, 2013, 02:51:52 AM

I'm not sure that's actually important, though. In S3, you buy a pink for 125 gold, drop it at dragon (or wherever), clear the enemy ward, and then have a ward for three minutes. In S4, you buy a pink and a green for 150 (because we're getting increased income, right?), drop them both at dragon, clear the enemy ward, and then have a ward for three minutes - it doesn't really matter if you move the pink later because stealth detection doesn't do much after you've already cleared the area.

Teams with the advantage will be lighting up the map regardless. Fifteen greens per team is a lot, and with pinks being so comparatively shitty now - they're cheaper, sure, but if you whiff with one you don't even get a real ward as consolation - and no Oracle's, ward clearing is going to be a lot less common. Especially if they make good on their promise to let supports buy more real items, which will take up inventory space that would otherwise be spent on pinks.
Goumindong
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Reply #26 on: November 02, 2013, 12:55:24 PM

Giving support more gold == more wards!

Not really.  Everyone's getting a 7th item slot that can hold one of three types of vision items.  The burden of vision will no longer be on support alone.

I don't think you guys get it. Spamming vision wards is premium job of support. Reduce the cost of getting a vision ward? Spam pink wards. It's about map control not being able to be useful beyond your crowd control or getting all your items.

So besides the fact that this can't happen in S4 you realize that its not the case in Season 3 that supports should be spamming vision right?

I say this as a Platinum support main
Margalis
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Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 05:45:29 PM

Pro games are all about spamming vision. That appears to be the optimal strategy.

You do something different and it works for you, but Plat is not Challenger or organized play, and DCap Janna is not something that shows up in pro games for a reason.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Goumindong
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Reply #28 on: November 02, 2013, 07:43:52 PM

Pro games are all about spamming vision. That appears to be the optimal strategy.

You do something different and it works for you, but Plat is not Challenger or organized play, and DCap Janna is not something that shows up in pro games for a reason.
Well no. Pro games are all about consistent objective control, not spamming vision. This leads to a lot of warding naturally because you're always pushing on/contesting objectives. But that isn't going to happen until you're in coordinated 5's play at high levels. Diamond and Challenger soloqueue does not have that vision spam (because you cannot wrangle as efficiently)
Margalis
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Reply #29 on: November 02, 2013, 11:34:37 PM

We're talking about optimal theoretic play - either every pro support is doing it wrong or spamming vision is the best strategy.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
ezrast
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Reply #30 on: November 03, 2013, 12:03:22 AM

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but nobody's talking about theoretically optimal play. It's certainly not what Riot is balancing around.

I also suspect that "keeping vision on important objectives" to one kind of player looks a lot like "spamming wards" to a different kind of player.

Does anyone know if pinks give a bounty when destroyed? Because if they do that's pretty stupid.
Draegan
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Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 06:07:17 AM

The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

Also, MediumHigh, you should read up on the changes before you comment further. It's obvious you don't know what Riot is planning for next season.
luckton
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Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 06:17:05 AM

The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

That's fine.  When the Ranked queues die off after matchmaking goes in,we won't have to wait too long for them to get it implemented.  I think the champ/role finder may be the one thing that can save the good players from Bronze/elohell.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
MediumHigh
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Reply #33 on: November 03, 2013, 08:34:03 AM

If you want to gain the lead = control an objective.
If you want to win the game = control the map.

Yes I've read the season 4 changes and I'm not convinced that players won't find their way around controlling the map. Or worse we get even more passive play.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Goumindong
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Reply #34 on: November 03, 2013, 01:40:57 PM

The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

That's fine.  When the Ranked queues die off after matchmaking goes in,we won't have to wait too long for them to get it implemented.  I think the champ/role finder may be the one thing that can save the good players from Bronze/elohell.

There are no good players in Bronze
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