City of Titans - spiritual successor to CoH - Kickstarter

[raydeen]

SPOOOOON! (I used to remember how to combine text with a link. Too many dead brain cells I suppose.)

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans?ref=category

Anyways, project looking to recreate CoH using the Unreal Engine. Discuss.

[DayDream]

hahahahahahahaha

please, oh please, let us live in a world where this thing actually makes it out the door.



i don't know that i'd play, but knowing that this thing actually became real?  in the MMO industry?  i would laugh for days.

[Falconeer]

320k goal? I am sorry, but this totally feels like a scam, an easy way to make sure they will pocket at least 320k (and run). I mean, if you set down a very low goal, which is not even remotely enough to make a game that you have no intention to make, you actually have a real chance to get to that goal and pocket the money. And that's it, that easy.

I mean, what stops people from pitching the most interesting idea ever for a MMORPG, put up a very low funding goal of 50k, never plan to deliver a game but get the 50k and go? Easiest 50k ever. Even with a goal of 10k, it would still be easy money. Sure, people should stop that, and call them out for messing with the system like what it seems is happening now, but judging on the fact that they have already raised half the requested money in a single day seems like someone is gonna get an early Christmas. 320k for a MMO? Fuck them.

EDIT: Look at who are these people and what is their experience in making videogames, scroll down to the "Our Team" section. Sigh, why are people so eager to donate money to scammers?

BUDGET

People have asked what the plan for the money raised with this Kickstarter.

We have been working together for over a year now. During this time, various tools have been tested, telling us what works, what doesn’t and what we need.

Our first expense is the cost of the Kickstarter itself. This goes to various companies such as Amazon, to Kickstarter, as well as the cost of the perks and add-ons. This comes to about 10% of the total.

Then there are taxes, which we estimate can run us up to 12% of the total.

So, before anything else, we’re out $70,000.

Since we are developing the game using the Unreal Engine, and the Kickstarter counts as revenue, we owe Epic Games, the company which makes the Unreal Engine royalties. That comes to about $70,000, as well.

We’re rounding up, of course, and estimating based on the best numbers we have available. By rounding up, we buy margin in case an unexpected cost, tax or fee enters the picture.

This cuts $140,000 right off the top, leaving $180,000 to actually build the project.

That $180,000 is mostly going straight to software.

Autodesk's Maya and 3DS Max. They’re not cheap, and we need them to do the work. Each of them has strengths and weaknesses, and we need at least 24 copies for the art and tech teams to be able to do their jobs. There are several different versions, each targeting different levels of needs, and the 24 total copies are split between the various members to their need, based on the tasks they have.

We’ll need multiple copies of a few tools like zbrush, Allegorithmic, 8DIO, Photoshop and Illustrator.

Then we have the costs for the website servers and bandwidth. The more you love us, the more expensive it’s going to get.

And, finally, a little cash to put a tax lawyer, book keeper and legal professional on retainer. Purely fee for service, but they will pay for themselves in troubles solved and money saved.

There are a few smaller items, such as RAM for some rendering, some 3D mice, drawing tablets, depending on individual artist needs.

Anything that makes us produce better and faster.

If we go beyond that with stretch goals? Additional middleware to help us make the game. Purchasing of assets, saving our team the time needed to develop. Licensing premade systems from other game developers. There is a world of options out there, and all of it means we make a better game for you.

[Merusk]

If they're not scammers they're idiots.

[ezrast]

They're not scammers. The project's been in the works in some form or another since the CoH shutdown was announced, and that game's community has a... well, a fervor the likes I've which I've honestly never seen before. It's really something.

"Delusional" is the word you're looking for.

[Malakili]

Eh, if you must put money into a Super Hero game just go sub to Champions Online for a month or two.

[raydeen]

Eh, if you must put money into a Super Hero game just go sub to Champions Online for a month or two.

I tried CO. Did not like.

[Signe]

I didn't like it either.  The only thing I remember was my last quest was to find a bunch of shit hidden in a pile of crap.  I did, however, love my character's look.  Fat Bottomed Girl really looked like a Fat Bottomed Girl.

Is it even possible to make a game with that little money?  I guess maybe if your office is a cardboard box at the bus station and your staff is homeless and work for cheap booze in a paper bag.  Having said that, I'd love a game that felt CoH-y to me.  We had a ton of fun with that game.

[Ginaz]

Nope.

[raydeen]

Is it even possible to make a game with that little money?  I guess maybe if your office is a cardboard box at the bus station and your staff is homeless and work for cheap booze in a paper bag.  Having said that, I'd love a game that felt CoH-y to me.  We had a ton of fun with that game.

I think the way they're going about it, it *might* be possible at least at first. They seem to be focusing mostly on purchasing software licenses and such. The way I'm reading it, it's a a labor of love and those involved are doing it to recreate some form of the game they (and many of us) held near and dear. Getting past this initial investment then they'll have to look at server cost and upkeep and such. Looks like they're well on their way though. Almost $174k out of $320k with 31 days to go. And the 320k isn't the top, just the minimum they'll need to get things off the ground. I'm sure they'll have much more in their coffers in a months time.

Might be a pipe dream but it's going to be interesting to watch.

[Falconeer]

A pipe dream they are pocketing 320k over though. This is what bothers me: people funding pipe dreams, which is becoming more and more just: "do you feel like giving me 320k so I can do whatever the fuck I want with it and maybe pay my debts while you believe I am making a game that I have no way or knowledge to make? Cool? Geee thanks".

It makes me angry cause it almost looks like taking advantage of stupid people. Many don't even take the time to read the Kickstaretr policy so they candidly believe they are entitled a final product until it all crashes (surprise!) and they realize they were entitled absolutely nothing. While I have no real sympathy for certain dunces, I don't like to see them taken advantage of no matter if it is through the promise of a honour roll of the chariots of fire or through a videogame that many have been wishing for since they have been dispossessed of their own.

I indirectly know a person who actually made the Kickstarter scam herself, for very little money, but still it was something she wasn't really considering delivering unless it happened to get her in a good day (and it didn't). She got money from people through a very nice kickstarter video promo, and pretty much just ran with the money afterwards as the policy allowed her to do. What the fuck? I am not saying here that this project would make more sense if it asked for 2M, but at least that way they would not get funded and wouldn't see money. While the trick of asking very little to cash out is really, really fucking shitty.

[raydeen]

I was under the impression there was some sort of safeguard against the 'take the money and run' bit in Kickstarter in that if the project didn't pan out, the backers would get their money back. I admit I've never really looked into any of it as I've never put any money into any of these things and really haven't wanted to until maybe now. If I did put some cash toward it, it would be fairly small so if I was fleeced, I wouldn't feel too bad about it, just chalk it up to a lesson learned.

[Threash]

I was under the impression there was some sort of safeguard against the 'take the money and run' bit in Kickstarter in that if the project didn't pan out, the backers would get their money back. I admit I've never really looked into any of it as I've never put any money into any of these things and really haven't wanted to until maybe now. If I did put some cash toward it, it would be fairly small so if I was fleeced, I wouldn't feel too bad about it, just chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Nope, you are an investor.  If the project doesn't pan out you take a loss.

[Malakili]

I was under the impression there was some sort of safeguard against the 'take the money and run' bit in Kickstarter in that if the project didn't pan out, the backers would get their money back. I admit I've never really looked into any of it as I've never put any money into any of these things and really haven't wanted to until maybe now. If I did put some cash toward it, it would be fairly small so if I was fleeced, I wouldn't feel too bad about it, just chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Nope, you are an investor.  If the project doesn't pan out you take a loss.

You're not even an investor.  Investors share in the profit if the thing succeeds.  You may hope they deliver on the reward tiers, but in the end it is a gift.

[Merusk]

Yup. The worst Kickstarter can do is ban you from ever putting up another project. Individuals might be able to bring a fraud suit, but you'd have to prove it was fraud and not just someone who was incredibly inept. Considering that 38 Studios gave a great example of ineptitude you'd probably be ok.

[Samprimary]

I want a scrying ball to be able to peer into the one in 28 trillion universe where this kickstarter actually succeeds, just so I can watch what happens with growing fascination.

[Ingmar]

I'm not going to donate to this, but I'd rather throw $30 at a 1% chance of getting City of Heroes back than ever touch CO again.

[shiznitz]

The truth of Kickstarter is finally starting to sink in, I see.  It was always the perfect vehicle to part fans from their money.

[Paelos]

I'd replace fans with suckers.

[Nevermore]

I'd really like to see them succeed but I'm certainly not holding my breath that they will nor will I send any money their way.  If I spent that money on a lottery ticket I'd have a better chance at some kind of return.

[tazelbain]

This is so dishonest. Kickstarting to put together a tech demo to get a publisher but tell everyone its for a game.

[KallDrexx]

And yet they have 1,436 people donating an average of $136 each..........

And it still has 31 days to go.

[Belasco]

I played CoH pretty extensively, and I'd love to play a modernized version of it, but no thanks.  If these guys put out a real game, then I'll support them by buying it.

Whether these guys are scammers or legitimate fans who just can't let go, it really doesn't matter.  I don't think it will end well.

[UnSub]

It's believed that CoH took something like US$14m and four years development (including one significant redevelopment from an open powers system to the more fixed one the game launched with), plus the backing of NCsoft who could handle a lot of things (like customer service, the servers, etc).

This project is saying they'll throw 100+ volunteers plus $320k or so dollars at it and come up with something similar in roughly 2 years and do everything themselves.

As someone else said, this isn't a scam, it's a delusion, but the end result for the backers will be the same.

It will get funded, because Kickstarter is a place where you can sell dreams and there isn't a shortage of buyers if you put the right dogwhistles in place.

I'm curious to see how long it takes for this project to start to fracture as core volunteers find they can no longer commit to the project and / or the money disappears more quickly than expected.

[Stormwaltz]

I have reasonable doubts.

This is not any sort of intentional fraud. I do think it's a lot of well-meaning folks thinking they can run a major from-scratch project like they would a Skyrim mod, everyone working on their home machines in their spare time. The budget is wholly inadequate, and their cost breakdown is... I mean, it might work if they could get it done in one year (before all their licenses expire), which they can't, because they're a bunch of people working from home in their spare time.

[Falconeer]

Exactly. But they still will most likely get about half a million dollar if not more just for trying. Uggggghhhhhhhh

[Margalis]

The vast majority of a game's budget is compensation, so only needing $320k in cash to make a game if you don't need to compensate anyone doesn't sound crazy to me.

Now, of course after a year 90% of the volunteers will have dropped out entirely so it's never going to work, but the money isn't the crazy part.

[Merusk]

The vast majority of a game's budget is compensation, so only needing $320k in cash to make a game if you don't need to compensate anyone doesn't sound crazy to me.

Now, of course after a year 90% of the volunteers will have dropped out entirely so it's never going to work, but the money isn't the crazy part.

Autodesk Maya, which they specifically reference, is $6,800 a seat for that product alone.  Since they aren't forming a corp they're not going to get a discount from a retailer.  Even if they did you're talking only a few hundred dollars a seat. So they've blown $163k of their 180k software budget on one product. 

3D Studio is $3,675 a seat.

Photoshop is a reasonable $600 a seat for the basic package, no creative cloud or other parts of their suite.
Illustrator is another $600 a seat.
 TBH if they're smart/ savvy they'll just use Creative Cloud at $50/ month per individual. 

However, their lack of due diligence on just the cost of software says they're not smart. They're dumb.

[Venkman]

A virtual studio entirely comprised of forums posters and game beta testers does not give me the sense that they're waiting for legit copies of these programs in order to start executing their vision. 

But I agree this isn't feeling like a scam. Almost criminally niave optimism that will end in tears, sure. But not by their design.

[Merusk]

Big project that will gather money using illegit software. Sounds like a great idea. Particularly after you just said, "We're going to buy 24 seats of ..."

Well, surely nobody would report them. Not like there's rewards for those sorts of things.   

[UnSub]

Guy guys guys, you've missed the point of this. If they can get $320K to make a MMO, WE can get $320K to make a MMO. Are we not also forum fans and beta testers of MMOs?

Plus we have real life devs on our forums! We just need one of them to be the willing face of something that will collapse and destroy their reputation forever while someone else gets the money person who fronts the videos. Who's going to put their hand up? 

[MediumHigh]

320K to make a game with perma-death and I'm in 

[Kageru]

Just to make doubly sure there's no chance of success?

As for the reboot idea I've got no problems with fans putting money towards their dreams... It will be a life lesson for them.

[Lantyssa]

No it won't.  They're delusional.  I was trying to explain to a friend of mine why this is not an awesome idea and that if he's working 80 hour weeks to make ends meet, not to waste money on this.  He wasn't swayed because he isn't thinking, he's dreaming.

(At least when I've backed a kickstarter I'm fully aware it may go down in flames and to expect nothing.)

[UnSub]

If this project didn't have CoH attached to it so prominently, it would have been lucky to make $3200, let alone $320K.

Also looking at the way the budget is structured, assuming that they are paying up things like the Unreal Engine for 2 years, the money will run out just as beta is meant to launch. So we can look forward to either more Star Citizen-like pre-game virtual item sales or another Kickstarter in order to get the title over whatever line it reaches by the end of 2015.