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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 283085 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #1155 on: March 26, 2016, 09:39:30 PM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.

Evildrider
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Reply #1156 on: March 26, 2016, 09:43:51 PM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.

Was he a sushi chef?   awesome, for real
 
Khaldun
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Reply #1157 on: March 27, 2016, 04:55:05 AM

I've got to say, while I'm sure the people who get paid for (or do for free) movie reviews prefer to watch good movies, it seems they save their really inspired prose for the crap ones.

I can only imagine them sitting there in the dark, furious at the shit they're having to suffer through, mentally composing epic rants. They probably put in ten times the effort out of sheer rage and bile.

It does make for fantastic reading. (Restaurant critics seem to be the same way, although even more than film critics they seem to seek out offense).

Critics are always bitchy, but the snippets here ---- BvS was clearly very, very inspiring to a narrow group of people. :)

Thank god I never had my hopes up. (I think I used that all up on Deadpool, really).

I think what inspires critics to write full-on hatescreeds is not just a bad movie but a bad movie that seems like a horrible wasted opportunity that is being heavily promoted by its producers. Nobody's going to work up too much over a disposable piece of crap that's being buried with a late January release. But when it's "important" to the studio and arguably to the culture, when the movie is likely to be seen by a lot of people, and when the critics can clearly see what made the movie bad and how it could have been at least decent--that's when the poison ink really fills the pens.

What I'm finding fascinating is also the die-hard Snyder fans and other fanboys really fighting hard in various geek forums to portray all the negativity as some kind of conspiracy.
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Reply #1158 on: March 27, 2016, 06:16:48 AM

I dunno, it may have a chance and depends entirely on the falloff since it hit $82 Mil. on Friday. This is Easter weekend and I don't know how movies traditionally do this weekend but that's not a bad showing.
True, but it also opened EASTER FRIDAY.  You know, a day when literally 99% of everything else out there is closed (except for movie theatres), so the vast majority of people looking for something to do have very few options when it comes to going out.

If it had opened a week earlier, or later, it's friday numbers might not have been nearly as high.

Also, I really want to ask:  Did aquaman ever make an appearance in this thing, like, at all?

I don't know where you live, Surf, but everything was opened on Friday around here. Shit, things barely close for Christmas or Thanksgiving nothing's closing because it's Good Friday. Schools, entertainment, businesses. They were all operating like a normal business day.

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Rendakor
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Reply #1159 on: March 27, 2016, 06:48:07 AM

Schools were closed here (and I had off work, yay small business run by christians!) but nothing else really was.

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jgsugden
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Reply #1160 on: March 27, 2016, 07:40:20 AM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.
From what I hear, we didn't really see Aquaman,  Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Batman or Superman. TheIR names were used, but not the characters.  At least, not a familiar version of te charcters.

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Evildrider
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Reply #1161 on: March 27, 2016, 08:59:43 AM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.
From what I hear, we didn't really see Aquaman,  Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Batman or Superman. TheIR names were used, but not the characters.  At least, not a familiar version of te charcters.

Don't worry we'll be all proven wrong when the DC Rebirth thing happens and all the comic characters miraculously match the movie characters!   awesome, for real
Mandella
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Reply #1162 on: March 27, 2016, 10:05:41 AM


If you look at Man of Steel without knowing who and what Superman is, I can see why critics liked it. It's just when paired with the "big blue boyscout" thing that it starts to fall apart.


This situation does set up the Catch-22 that I fall into. I have absolutely no love for the "real" comic book Superman, but that means that although I would theoretically be just fine with whatever liberties are taken with his character I'm also not likely to go to the trouble to watch the movie to begin with.
HaemishM
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Reply #1163 on: March 27, 2016, 10:13:07 AM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.
From what I hear, we didn't really see Aquaman,  Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Batman or Superman. TheIR names were used, but not the characters.  At least, not a familiar version of te charcters.

I suppose, since the only character in this thing that WAS like its comic version was the Batman who was ripped directly off of the old Batman in Dark Knight Returns. No one else in the DC Cinematic universe is even remotely like their comic counterpart.

Kail
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Reply #1164 on: March 27, 2016, 06:01:11 PM

I've got to say, while I'm sure the people who get paid for (or do for free) movie reviews prefer to watch good movies, it seems they save their really inspired prose for the crap ones.
I think what inspires critics to write full-on hatescreeds is not just a bad movie but a bad movie that seems like a horrible wasted opportunity that is being heavily promoted by its producers. Nobody's going to work up too much over a disposable piece of crap that's being buried with a late January release.

Plenty of people do that (see also: half of Youtube dedicated to digging up and then eviscerating Z-grade garbage movies like The Room or Birdemic), it's just usually the smaller critics who get the chances because big budget movies are rarely so incompetent you can just flat out insult them (boring maybe, or disappointing, but rarely flat out disasters).  It's easier to point and laugh at the guy who just pooped his pants than say something meaningful about the guy who did his job.  You insult Bob for doing shit work, so you look smarter than Bob, audience feels smarter than Bob by agreeing with you, Bob isn't there to defend himself or elicit empathy, everybody laughs at Bob.  It's like the driving principle behind MST3K.
Malakili
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Reply #1165 on: March 27, 2016, 06:07:33 PM

I definitely have different standards for B movies than stuff like Batman vs. Superman. Bad B movies are often pretty charming in their badness. A 400 million dollar overly focused-grouped, produced by committee piece of garbage is usually just a piece of garbage that deserves whatever bad press it gets.
HaemishM
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Reply #1166 on: March 27, 2016, 06:12:59 PM

I think critics are having such fun eviscerating this movie because it is just SO BAD at the fundamentals of movie making and storytelling. It's not that badly acted - the characters just have terrible, terrible, turgid, overwrought shit put in their mouths by the screenwriter and director. The very fundamental construction of scenes is so flawed and shoddy. I mean, you could criticize the movie for days on just basic shit that a first-year film student should know not to do and yet it continues to make the same basic errors from beginning to end.

Hell, the best scenes in the movie are the ones with Wonder Woman and the scenes where we see Wonder Woman looking at the videos of the other meta humans. Just behind those are the scenes with Batman when he actually has something to do or so.

The more I think about this stinker, the more insanely bad it is. If you combine this with Man of Steel, the character of Clark Kent might as well not be there. I could accept his quick hire at the Planet at the end of MoS as kind of a quick setup. None of that gets paid off in this one. Oh sure, we're told he's a reporter and he's got a desk and his editor is yelling at him, but never do we actually see him doing any kind of reporting. And he has no personality whatsoever as Clark Kent. It isn't that the actor is bad, it's that there is literally nothing for him to do with a character so thin, I'm not sure why they bothered even giving him a secret identity other than it's expected.

luckton
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Reply #1167 on: March 28, 2016, 05:15:24 AM

Apparently WB is going with the "Kingdom of Heaven" play on this one.

- The Blu-Ray/DVD release has been moved up to July 16.
- "Ultimate Cut" will have all of the deleted scenes left on the cutting room floor.
- Will make the film 3+ hours long.
- Content that was cut will boost the rating from PG-13 to R. Not "Deadpool" hard-R, but enough to breach the rating barrier.

I may just wait for this.

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Reply #1168 on: March 28, 2016, 06:56:13 AM

I could accept his quick hire at the Planet at the end of MoS as kind of a quick setup. None of that gets paid off in this one. Oh sure, we're told he's a reporter and he's got a desk and his editor is yelling at him, but never do we actually see him doing any kind of reporting. And he has no personality whatsoever as Clark Kent. It isn't that the actor is bad, it's that there is literally nothing for him to do with a character so thin, I'm not sure why they bothered even giving him a secret identity other than it's expected.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/clark-kent/2861360
Polysorbate80
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Reply #1169 on: March 28, 2016, 08:20:57 AM

Y'know, the wife and I didn't hate it.

It's got issues, but aside from Luthor being awful and incomprehensible, I can deal with it.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1170 on: March 28, 2016, 08:49:53 AM

I am really fascinated by the people in my social media feed who are saying they kind of liked it. It's a really idiosyncratic bunch--people who normally don't agree about anything.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #1171 on: March 28, 2016, 09:15:49 AM

My wife and I kind of liked it, too.  Kind of.  The first half was just so inept.  There were whole chains of scenes that were just nonsensical, where character dialogue and motivation felt unfinished and the plot had yet to engage.  The pacing and the overbearing soundtrack were grueling.  It felt a lot like TFA, where the pacing and directing robbed every scene of its weight and the character beats felt like cliff's notes, but where TFA was a lot of fun, BVS was joyless for two hours.  Where they differ is that TFA started strong and slowly went to shit as the movie progressed whereas BVS went to shit immediately after the MoS scene, although it got better at the payoff.  The fight scenes at the end were fun in a Dragonball Z kind of way, and Wonder Woman was fun as the only character who gets to smile.  Affleck was great as Batman and Cavill nailed Snyderman.  Eisenberg played a great crazy but a poor Lex Luthor. 

I'm not sure a longer cut is what this film needs.  Sure, the humanizing scenes should be restored to the film if they were ever shot, but most of the Luthorcorp bullet and White Portugese scenesshould be chopped.  Luthor's crazy book speech didn't do much for his character, and none of the others really reacted to it, so chop it.  Batman's dreams of bats and bleeding mausoleums?  Chop.  Half of the pseudo theology "What does God need with a democracy?" crap?  Chop it.
HaemishM
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Reply #1172 on: March 28, 2016, 11:33:41 AM

Yeah, adding another half hour to this film won't save it. All the dream sequences except the "Omega" sand fight scene added nothing to the thing whatsoever. The bullet being the trail that led Lois to Luthor was fucking pointless because in the end, Lex came and got her anyway and the bullet made no fucking sense whatsoever. The whole Africa fight seems pointless although supposedly that's what caused the whole hearings thing to commence which made no sense because the only reason we know that is the 1-minute testimony of the lady talking about the other warlord that came in. It actually made the whole hearings thing even more confusing because Congress doesn't have hearings on a major "Metropolis" IN AMERICA getting skullfucked directly by Superman and his opponent but they do have one on an African nation we don't even see getting skullfucked by yet another warlord because Superman took the last one out? No sense.

Fuck it, there's nothing that would make this movie make sense except it being another movie by competent screenwriters and directors.

kaid
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Reply #1173 on: March 28, 2016, 12:32:52 PM

Yes, Aquaman showed up.
From what I hear, we didn't really see Aquaman,  Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Batman or Superman. TheIR names were used, but not the characters.  At least, not a familiar version of te charcters.

You see him clearly but its just a minute or two same with flash and cyborg. Wonder woman actually has a reasonable if small role in the film and gets a decent amount of screen time. I still think the actress they have playing wonder woman is a bit waifish for the role but she did a good job in the movie and is super hot so I can roll with it.
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Reply #1174 on: March 28, 2016, 12:40:31 PM

Read it again, you missed the joke. Don't feel bad I did the same thing and almost responded the way you did.

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Threash
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Reply #1175 on: March 28, 2016, 06:53:37 PM

Ok, that wasn't as terrible as i expected.  Also it's nice to see the cave troll from lord of the rings getting some work.

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Margalis
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Reply #1176 on: March 28, 2016, 09:56:17 PM

Every time a superhero is bad the fanboys claim that studio interference is the reason, and that if only they had allowed a longer cut the movie would be better. It's delusional - if anything these bad, overstuffed movies need things trimmed, not things added.

I watched Man of Steel last night. I didn't hate it, but it wasn't good either. I kind of feel like taking back what I said about Snyder having a good visual sense - while some of the shots and visuals are cool, others are awful - very much a mixed bag. (For example Superman fighting the nano-tentacle things looked terrible)

It feels to me like Snyder's best stuff is cribbed. For example in MOS the last fight scene is based on one from Birdie the Mighty. Superman flying by leaving the ground at warp speed rather than just floating away seems taken from things like The Dark Knight Returns. I don't have a problem with these things being "inspired" by other things, but the things Snyder is inventing himself don't seem nearly as good as what he is borrowing.

That said - boy the script for MOS if awful. Not only is the overall concept kind of bad, but the lines of dialogue are just atrocious. For example when Zod takes his helmet off for the first time and Superman spells out exactly what is happening - "my parents taught me to focus. Without your helmet you're taking in everything. It's painful isn't it?" Why does he need to say any of that, the film makes it obvious.

Zod is fucking terrible. The guy playing him speaks like he has marbles in his mouth, and his presence is just so slight. Rather than being the main bad guy he should be the pathetic, sniveling sidekick of the main bad guy. He has a defeated, downtrodden aura to him, and not presence at all.

These are things that can't be hung on Snyder, other than the role the director has in the script and casting.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 10:03:38 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #1177 on: March 28, 2016, 10:23:12 PM

Did you just say that Michael Shannon has no presence? Ooooookay.

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Reply #1178 on: March 29, 2016, 01:29:53 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree either.  Of all the things I hated (and, dear God, there were a lot) about Man of Steel Shannon doing Zod wasn't one.  I honestly thought I would hate it, but I didn't.

It takes a lot for me to like another Zod.  The one from Smallville was AWFUL, for example.

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eldaec
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Reply #1179 on: March 29, 2016, 03:27:44 AM

I didn't have an issue with any actor in MoS. In fact, I think it was the best live action performances of Superman, Lois, and Zod that anyone has given us.

I don't even have an issue with an imperfect superman. I can't see any reason a dark Superman story has to be bad.

The problem is that this particular story was boring. The film asks a question about how humans react to kryptonians and vice versa  but then instead of exploring answers it just admires its premise through the medium of ever bigger explosions. The story is self indulgent and boring.


From the reviews it seems like BvS is the same.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 03:30:33 AM by eldaec »

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #1180 on: March 29, 2016, 04:35:18 AM

Frank Miller's paranoia and political views is what permeates "The Dark Knight Returns". An invulnerable and immortal alien working for one country that by its mere existence causes WW III and opresses humanity.

Batman is basically the idolized libertarian vigilante. Iindependently rich, self-made and willing and able to enforce law and order where the government - and even the demi-god being from Krypton- are unwilling or unable to do so, what with all the pesky rules and laws. A vigilante willing to fight the Übermensch. An Übermensch who's nothing more than a government goon and who sees humanity like a human sees an ant farm. Batman is the stand in for Miller and his political views while Superman is basically the avatar of "Government" as he sees it. Superman has a god complex, sees humanity as nothing more than half-animals that need to be "protected" from themselves (even by taking their freedoms away from them), has given himself the task of watching out for the people even though he doesn't really care and he causes a shitload of problems including a nuclear war between the US and the USSR. Basically government is incompetent even when they have a literal god on their side.

In that universe a confrontation between Batman and Superman makes sense because Superman is already the villain and has been established as one. The comic also argues that a being like Superman can't help but become the villain by its mere existence. I don't like the political world view depicted in Dark Knight returns but at least it's consistent and well established why Batman and Superman have to clash. It also has a point in that Batman reminds Superman that he is in fact mortal and can be killed and Batman also reminds him that the only reason he didn't get killed is that a human has shown 'mercy'. This somewhat shifts Supermans mentality towards humanity and his own "invulnerability". Miller is alos self-aware enough to see that Batman himself can't be a hero and a public persona and has to 'die' because according to DKR the mere existence of the superhero begets chaos and anarchy.

BvS by comparison is simply the paranoid delusions of billionaire Bruce Wayne who preemptively wants to act against Superman because he might turn evil at some point. DKR works because it establishes Superman as the villain and so doesn't have to work against the preconceptions of the audience that have largely known Superman as the "big blue boyscout". Snyder on the other hand doesn't give either Batman or Superman any sort of intrinsic motivation at all which goes so far that he can't even decide if one or both of them should be the hero or the villain of the story. So the confrontation works out more like a playground fight between two man-children fighting over who can have the bucket and shovel next.
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Reply #1181 on: March 29, 2016, 04:35:46 AM

. In fact, I think it was the best live action performances of Superman, Lois, and Zod that anyone has given us.

Whoa, hold up.  No.


(But you were right about the rest.  To be honest, I suspect just adapting Red Son would have suited this guy a lot more.  Then you can do what the fuck you like and, frankly, I remember a LOT of explody boom boom in that.  Also, killer Batman.)

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Khaldun
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Reply #1182 on: March 29, 2016, 09:04:39 AM

Wow, the other production teams for DC movies can't scramble away fast enough from the Snyder aesthetic. The directors of the Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Suicide Squad movies have all gone out of their way in the last two days to stress that their movies will be "fun". Even *Snyder* is saying, "Oh, Justice League? That will be a more fun movie."
HaemishM
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Reply #1183 on: March 29, 2016, 09:12:23 AM

Synder does fine when he's adapting someone else's story and bringing the visual impact of comics art to the screen - a la Watchmen and 300. Anytime he has to break away from that and create his own stuff is an utter fucking disaster - see Sucker Punch. He's trying to adapt about 4 stories into one movie and doesn't have any idea how to glue them together visually. And fuck David Goyer with a rusty spoon and his shitass script.

eldaec
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Reply #1184 on: March 29, 2016, 10:04:43 AM

Frank Miller's paranoia and political views is what permeates "The Dark Knight Returns". An invulnerable and immortal alien working for one country that by its mere existence causes WW III and opresses humanity.

All true, but where DC/WB aren't wrong is that there is nothing wrong with the Frank Miller setting if you want to tell your story there, it doesn't have to be about fatalistic tedium, and it doesn't have to be bad even if it is fatalistic - though you need better filmmakers. The Nolan films demonstrated this.


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eldaec
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Reply #1185 on: March 29, 2016, 10:09:03 AM

. In fact, I think it was the best live action performances of Superman, Lois, and Zod that anyone has given us.

Whoa, hold up.  No.

Who was the best superman/lois then? Because there have been a few and they were all pretty bad as actors.

I'm pretty sure that after Cavill/Adams comes Cain/Hatcher...

Leaving this here in case anyone doesn't really remember what Reeve/Kidder was like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIaF0QKtY0c
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 10:18:07 AM by eldaec »

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Khaldun
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Reply #1186 on: March 29, 2016, 10:10:42 AM

Christopher Reeve was miles away the best Superman/Clark Kent, but he did *not* have a Lois to match.
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Reply #1187 on: March 29, 2016, 10:38:48 AM

The best isn't that relevant when none of them are good.

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Reply #1188 on: March 29, 2016, 10:42:58 AM

Christopher Reeve was good.

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Reply #1189 on: March 29, 2016, 10:48:12 AM

I was never really a big of a fan of any of the superman movies, even as a child.....

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