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Author Topic: Heat Scale coming July 16th. Bye alpha meta?  (Read 11927 times)
Falconeer
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on: July 11, 2013, 04:35:03 PM

There's also some info on other stuff, like SRM, but you should read the whole thing yourself. They also let us vote on the damage bump for SRM in July 30th patch (voting has decided that). Interesting. Also, overheat damage now starts at 101%. I really, really like this.

Good enough to hurt high alpha?


Quote
… *Thunder booms in the distance*…

Arriving for July 16th… heat scale on high weapon count alphas.

As promised, once systems are in place for new balancing/tuning features, I will let you know about them as they enter test. What we have seen so far is very positive. There are some tweaks that need to be done but those will come with subsequent patches. The key here is to get this feature enabled to allow you, the Beta testers to see the effects and adjust your gameplay or meta-gameplay as needed.

This is very experimental and is being addressed aggressively as I mentioned in my previous weapons update. The first set of numbers are for the immediate effect on the current meta-game but more weapons and balancing will occur with each patch you see on our path to Launch. That being said, here is a table of maximum weapons of each weapon type you can fire without incurring the heat penalty. Internally we call this value Max Alpha.

Weapon System   Max Alpha
PPC   2
ERPPC   2
LRM-15   2
Large Laser   2
Medium Laser   6
AC/20   1
SRM-2   4
SSRM-2   4
SRM-4   4
SRM-6   3


Firing more weapons than Max Alpha makes heat generation grow exponentially. For example, from the table above, if you fire 2 PPCs, you will receive no heat penalty. Fire 3 and there will be a noticeable heat increase. Fire 4, it starts to get significant. Beyond that, you’re playing with fire.

EDIT: Just to clarify:

PPC and ERPPC will be combined into one weapon bucket on the 30th. The code is done but has not gone through test yet and will not be ready for the 16th. After the 30th, both PPC and ERPPC will share the PPC heat scale. i.e. Firing 2 PPCs and 1 ERPPC will be the same as firing 3PPCs.



What about SRMs?!?! Buff them to 2.5!!!

Nuh uh. 2.5 SRM damage causes the same effect as the previous LRM-aggedon. While funny to test, the 6-SRM6 Catapult will decimate any Assault class Mech in 3 volleys. The third volley doesn’t even have to be a full volley, 2 volleys following up with a medium laser will probably kill most builds in the game. So what am I going to do about this? Well let me explain an issue…

Many of you have cited hit detection errors. We’re seeing this as well. While it happens across almost all Mechs, it’s most noticeable with small Mech chassis. Bumping damage is going to help deal a small amount more damage to small Mechs, but the larger Mechs are going to be destroyed VERY quickly. We are investigating the root cause of these detection errors but it’s a deep problem. We need to find out if it’s in HSR (host state rewind) or is it in the simulation running on the server etc etc. Once found we will be pouring heavy resources on to the problem to fix it ASAP. However, I can tell you this, it’s going to take a while to find due to its complexity.

That being said, here’s an opportunity for you to decide your fate when dealing with SRMs. In this feedback thread (http://mwomercs.com/...-hit-detection/), there is a poll. You can vote to bump SRM damage up to 2.0, not this patch but next, or leave damage as is until hit detection is fixed. Keep in mind, this bump in damage is going to be a fairly big world of hurt for larger Mechs. NOTE: Cut off for voting will be Sunday 11:59PM PST.

Taking damage beyond 120% heat.
This value is going to be reduced to 100%
. Depending on how long you're in a state of overheat will determine how much damage you take. If you overheat by 1 point and are only in overheat for a very short amount of time, you probably won't take any damage at all.



No clue why there's a big gap above the weapon table.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 04:46:47 PM by Falconeer »

Goreschach
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Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 06:49:55 PM

God, these people are terrible. Instead of actually fixing the problem, their solution to a system that is systemically too big for them to balance is to add yet another system with an asspull number for each weapon type in the game?
Samprimary
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Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 11:37:46 PM

welllll we'll definitely, uh

be seeing more build .. variety .. maybe?

mission accomplished obv
schpain
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Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 12:00:37 AM

my issue is i dont even think its going to stop high alpha meta.  you can still boat 4 ppcs and fire 2 then 2 with little/no penalty.  or 3ppc and gauss, fire 2 then 1 ppc or just take a small heat penalty for firing 3 ppc.  wake me when its over.

*Should be working*
Falconeer
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Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 12:57:52 AM

I know it is unpopular to ever say anything positive, and I agree that this solution is far from a good one (which would have required much more re-design and I am sure they are scared to death to do it), but boys you really love to be angry. This might not be the best one, but do you really believe this is gonna leave shit unaffected?

And please note that it is not just a heat penalty that will make 'mechs shut down earlier, but by lowering the threshold for internal damage (something we've been asking for a long time) it means big alpha will: a) shut you down sooner and b) hurt yourself sooner.

And in Schpain's example, if you shoot 2 ppcs 0.5 secs away from each other (if you can discipline yourself to do that, because in the heat of battle either you shoot slightly before the 0.5, incurring in the penalty, or slightly later, lowering your dps) that is simply not an alpha strike anymore and there are lots of chances to have the damage spread in two different locations, so again while not perfect it DOES something against big alphas.

Also, buff to SRM and means a little bit of brawling back.

Can't we ever keep being harshly critical but crack a smile when something improves, even if by little, the actual game?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 10:10:35 AM by Falconeer »

satael
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Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 01:51:24 AM

As long as they are trying to fix the problem I'm somewhat happy. I'm curious about the max alpha on lrm15 (and not other lrms) since it seems to be against some specific build rather than just stacking lrms (and I prefer spacing out lrms anyway for extended stagger effect)

edit:double anyway
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 10:48:50 AM by satael »
Falconeer
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Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 01:54:26 AM

Also of note is the complete absence of penalty on all pulse lasers. But then again, I am sure they are gonna change the hell out of that table before launch.

Lantyssa
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Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 09:50:58 AM

It's a start.  At least the max alpha numbers are more reasonable than what they first proposed, too.

Now if we can get heat scale effects between 0 and 30...

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Merusk
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Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 10:43:09 AM

The way they have it presented PPC and ERPPC are split in to different categories, implying I can still fire 4 PPCs at once without a penalty.


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Falconeer
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Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 11:06:06 AM

They clarified that will be the case by next Tuesday's patch, but it is already planned to be changed in the July 30th patch. All PPCs will be grouped together when it comes to alpha limit. You won't be able to do that without a heat penalty past July 30th.

Quote from: Paul Inouye
PPC and ERPPC will be combined into one weapon bucket on the 30th. The code is done but has not gone through test yet and will not be ready for the 16th. After the 30th, both PPC and ERPPC will share the PPC heat scale. i.e. Firing 2 PPCs and 1 ERPPC will be the same as firing 3PPCs.

Kageru
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Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 05:18:09 PM


I'm glad they are aware that spider mech's are able to shrug off a noticeable percentage of hits.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Llyse
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Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 04:45:58 PM

my issue is i dont even think its going to stop high alpha meta.  you can still boat 4 ppcs and fire 2 then 2 with little/no penalty.  or 3ppc and gauss, fire 2 then 1 ppc or just take a small heat penalty for firing 3 ppc.  wake me when its over.

So bitter! It's a step in the right direction and hopefully I'll be playing more now that the TSW anniversary event is finishing up
schpain
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Reply #12 on: July 14, 2013, 08:42:55 PM

upon re-reading that post i can see why it came off as 'bitter' (thanks llyse).  they recognise that high alpha meta is hurting the game, and are fixing it.  i like this.  

i've got small ancillary rants about light mechs sporting ppcs and whatever, but really, my biggest issue is all these steps on the path to 'what the game should be' is hurting PGI in terms of player numbers.   its taking too long to fix this game and with only my anecdotal evidence to back up my point, i feel like they've already lost a tonne of the players i'd like to see in this game, instead of the boating poptarting headshot kids.

i like to feel like i'm running a mech that's at least on some level faithful to the battletech universe, but it flies in the face of most efficient gameplay.  add to it the delay on community war; i just feel like they released a game too early and won't have anywhere near the deserved level of hype when the game is actually released.  

ok, i'm bitter.  but i still want this game to be good.  hopefully these changes make more of a difference than we're theorising.  

edit:

my (neck)beard clippings.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 08:46:19 PM by schpain »

*Should be working*
Falconeer
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Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 12:47:39 PM

Update from Paul.

Quote
Update July 15/2013:

We were able to sneak the SRM damage buff into the build for tomorrow's patch. As of tomorrow, SRM damage will be set temporarily to 2.0 (until the hit detection issue is addressed) taking into account the overwhelming response in the buff poll.

Investigation started: For the 30th patch, we are looking at possibly bumping PPC and ERPPC base heat generation. If we do bump the base heat, the heat scale for these weapons will be lowered. This is just an update and not a guarantee that this change will be added to the game.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 12:52:53 PM by Falconeer »

Kageru
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Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 02:14:44 AM


I don't see much of a difference. Still saw a 4man squad of pop-tarting PPC Highlanders decimate a PUG team.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Falconeer
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Reply #15 on: July 18, 2013, 02:56:48 AM

Yes, it's mine impression too that the Heat Scale Penalty didn't change much. I am sure it has statistically reduced the amount of PPC alpha, but definitely not enough or in a perceivable way. Like, say, 5%? Who the fuck cares about 5%.

July 30th patch will hit it a little more by pooling PPC and ER PPC in the same Heat Penalty bucket (Because they are not at the moment there's plenty of 2PPC+2ERPPC which are literally unaffected by the penalty), and there's a chance they will have their heat increased as Paul announced, regardless of the penalty. Looking forward to that.

Ironwood
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Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 03:40:50 AM

I'll be honest though - there is an increased amount of PPC mixing.  Many mechs have been observed with the diversity of BOTH PPC and ER PPC now.

 Ohhhhh, I see.

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Merusk
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Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 03:50:34 AM

Heat damage doesn't do much to internals.  I overheated a few times the first day and nada.  So you either have to shut down more than 2-3 seconds or the damage is insignificant.

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Falconeer
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Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 04:53:40 AM

The internal damage isn't much, but it had killed me a few times already, and I've seen people self-destruct in front of me while I was dueling them. It really hurts those big 'mechs that are already in trouble (red internal) and feel like shooting a final big alpha like it doesn't matter. So I'd say it mostly kills those who were about to die anyway, but sometimes it definitely explodes them before they can try the same trick again.

It also depends a lot on how much over 100% the overheating strike actually drives you, as the DOT damage keeps hurting you until you get back to 99%.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 04:55:20 AM by Falconeer »

Ironwood
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Reply #19 on: July 18, 2013, 06:01:32 AM

So, so stupid.


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Falconeer
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Reply #20 on: July 18, 2013, 06:34:27 AM

What? Heat Damage is not what a heat penalty should be (Tabletop), but it's better than nothing.

Ironwood
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Reply #21 on: July 18, 2013, 07:07:53 AM

As far as I can see, it IS pretty much nothing.

100% heat.  You assplode.

Done.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #22 on: July 18, 2013, 07:10:07 AM

Yeah heat remains meaningless unless you were going to die anyway, in which case, oh no I died 2 seconds earlier.  The shutdown is the concern more than the actual heat, unless you can alpha a bitch to flinders.

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Reply #23 on: July 18, 2013, 07:25:43 AM

I see. Well, I agree with that.

Ironwood
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Reply #24 on: July 18, 2013, 07:57:21 AM

There are only 8 players per team.  It doesn't matter if you shutdown, or if you take some internal damage or blah blah blah blah.  All that matters is when the enemy gets more of them than there are of you.  Particularly in the long range coring game that's going on.

So it doesn't matter a FUCK if the guy takes internal damage or shuts down if he's already pulled your insides out through your ass.

What matters MORE is if he FUCKING ASSPLODES trying to do that.  I want the chaps who kill and enemy stone dead through this shitty overheating boating nonsense to just BLOW UP so it's a zero sum game and we can go back to building proper mechs, rather than this shite.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Falconeer
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Reply #25 on: July 18, 2013, 08:42:54 AM

By the way, 12 vs 12 public test starting in 78 minutes.

Samprimary
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Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 07:15:05 PM

yeah my pledge was "I will keep playing my ppc alpha mech until the first time i kill myself from overheating"

scores of games later, the worst I do is occasionally daintily yellow my ct internals after firing four ppc's from 99% heat
Llyse
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Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 07:51:47 PM

Yeah I played my first few games last night since the slope patch and first impression is it's ok?

The speed loss is really severe for Heavy/Assaults so it means brawlers need to be A LOT smarter about their approach. This wouldn't be a bad thing but it makes ppc sniping a much much more easier option for the braindead.

Anecdotal evidence from here and playing against ppcs seems like the change has made close to zero impact to the snipe game...

Sadface, I'm definitely reconsidering getting a Phoenix pack...
Merusk
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Reply #28 on: July 19, 2013, 05:12:47 AM

Sam has a wonderful argument against getting a Phoenix pack he shared on Vent the other night.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Ironwood
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Reply #29 on: July 19, 2013, 06:26:00 AM

Was it like that old joke :

"How you do keep an arsehole in suspense ?"

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Llyse
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Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 02:13:20 AM

Yeah I'm out... sadface.
Falconeer
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Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 02:24:19 AM

Crazy article from Paul about the math behind the Heat Penalty Scale.

The only useful thing coming from that is the hinting at additional weapons grouped together towards the Heat Penalty the same way PPC and ER PPC are going to. Possibly missiles, as many are circumventing the penalty on the splatcat or long range boats by mixing different SRMs and LRMs. Wondering about Gauss, since what the penalty really achieved has been to push every cheesemonger out there to 2ERPPC+Gauss builds.

Merusk
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Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 06:00:03 AM

All of which were predictable outcomes that even I pointed out.  If the game devs couldn't figure that shit out before pushing this half-assedly out the door the game is in worse trouble than you'd think.

Was it like that old joke :

"How you do keep an arsehole in suspense ?"

I dunno, are you in suspense?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

It boiled-down to, "Zero confidence in the developers to do anything good or logical with this game. Sending them money is supporting a failed product."  He was far more eloquent.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
schpain
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Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 06:01:06 PM

i want my apology Falc!!

XD

*Should be working*
Falconeer
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Reply #34 on: July 22, 2013, 12:26:24 AM

Schpain, I really do apologise when needed. (See: Vanguard and more).

But here there's really no reason for one yet. "Game is dead" because Ironwood got bored? Sorry, the game is not dead at all.

When it'll be, if it'll be soon enough, be assured I will admit I was wrong.

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