~ D&M Open III ~ Interest Check - possible rules discussion

[Sjofn]

Actually, fuck blood bowl forever, I withdraw myself from this thing.

[rk47]

humans suck.

Humans definitely don't suck.

[Ruvaldt]

Humans are #1 in the Feeder League for the past two years.  Maybe it's how you play them...

[rk47]

[IainC]

Actually, fuck blood bowl forever, I withdraw myself from this thing.

[rk47]

Actually, fuck blood bowl forever, I withdraw myself from this thing.

Yeah. Me too. Me too.

[Sjofn]

Actually, fuck blood bowl forever, I withdraw myself from this thing.

Sorry, this season has shoved me in a decidedly SirT direction, and I can tell it's not going to get any better.

[Megrim]

Try Orks. Or anything that isn't AV7.

[luckton]

Orks or Dwarfs, yeah.  Although nothing is as humbling an experience as playing Halflings. 

[Sjofn]

It's really not a matter of "try a team with higher AV."

[Megrim]

It's really not a matter of "try a team with higher AV."

Honestly, you would be surprised.

[Sjofn]

I've played dwarves, I do not like them. I've played orcs, I do not like them. This season has not actually been worse me-getting-beat-up-wise than prior season (I'm not even in the worst punching bag list, which I certainly have been in seasons past!), and it's not the thing that's made it clear that I should quit for my own good.

What it actually is, I do not like how badly you can get fucked by luck. I found it frustrating in the seasons prior to this (and I had a good run in the last one I played in!), but it has been agonizing this season. I just can't quite make peace with doing everything right and still losing because the dice decided "fuck you." Some people can, but I am not one of those people, it turns out. I know I am not nearly as bad as my record this season indicates, and it bothers me. It bothers me way more than it should. That makes it pretty clear I should quit.

[eldaec]

Nobody likes Dwarves. Seriously, fuck Dwarf teams.

But in your case, given the way you played in the matches we had, I'd really recommend trying with a team that has some STR4. Possibly in a few months after you've had a break and when Nuffle has got distracted and is picking on someone else.

All the human teams tail off playing against other developed sides unless they have a coach with a couple of hundred matches under their belt.

[rk47]

Just play Chaos.

[Ruvaldt]

Chaos is very satisfying eventually.  Their first ten or so matches are frustrating though.

[Megrim]

heh, after four seasons.

Sfojn, give it a few days. I've just had my team in fumbbl smashed to bits over two games (from 1800 to 1200), and I've got to play another 2k TV Chaos Dwarf team next round. Worst part is, I've had atrocious dice in those two games. Even when I was able to catch a break and push my opponents into a bad situation, I'd get shafted. 3-die trip skulls, armour breaks 24/7, AG4 failing 2+ all day every day. Nearly quit in disgust after the last game.

But it gets better =)

[IainC]

I get where Sjofn is coming from, it's not just 'Man I keep losing due to BULLSHIT!!!' but more, 'This is a game that I can play perfectly but still lose through no fault of my own.' It's not about having a bad streak , it's about playing a game where your skill can be entirely counteracted by dumb luck and that this isn't necessarily a freakish occurrence but can happen with regularity. If that basic aspect of the game bothers you then no matter which teams you play or for how long, you are ultimately not going to enjoy it. A terrible losing streak doesn't cause that problem, it just highlights the existence of it.

Sjofn's a good player, she knows how to play the game and how to manage risk, it's not that she needs to try harder or experiment with different teams, there's a fundamental problem with the luck/skill balance for her that won't be fixed by playing a different side.

[Megrim]

Thing is, it becomes easier to manage bad luck when the consequences for failure are smaller. Some teams allow for this. Obviously just switching teams might not be the answer, but often it is a difference between "oh man, I have shitty luck and didn't kill any of their dudes" and "oh man I have shitty luck and all my mans died".

In most cases though, I recommend sleeping on it.

[Sjofn]

I get where Sjofn is coming from, it's not just 'Man I keep losing due to BULLSHIT!!!' but more, 'This is a game that I can play perfectly but still lose through no fault of my own.' It's not about having a bad streak , it's about playing a game where your skill can be entirely counteracted by dumb luck and that this isn't necessarily a freakish occurrence but can happen with regularity. If that basic aspect of the game bothers you then no matter which teams you play or for how long, you are ultimately not going to enjoy it. A terrible losing streak doesn't cause that problem, it just highlights the existence of it.

Sjofn's a good player, she knows how to play the game and how to manage risk, it's not that she needs to try harder or experiment with different teams, there's a fundamental problem with the luck/skill balance for her that won't be fixed by playing a different side.

You get me, man. You get me. 

[z22]

Sjofn, I feel bad now.  

I was your last opponent, getting my first win this season vs your Norse, so I apologize. If it makes you feel any better, after our game I felt bad that you suffered what has happened to me in my first 5 games: playing well and having the game run over your team with poor rolls, making it feel as though you are watching a game and not playing one. This was the first game this season where I didn't feel like the punching-bag of division 2. I'm the team they talk about in the forums that has had his team mangled every game, and I'm playing ORCS!!!  In my first 5 games I think I've had 5-6 deaths (some of them Starplayers), multiple injuries, countless KOs, and pretty much every kickoff event has crushed me. In one game I suffered two blitzes against me, a Pitch Invasion that left me with 2 players standing, and a couple of other bad kickoff events. Whoever thought the random kickoff event table was a good idea should never make games again, period!

I couldn't agree with you more about Blood Bowl though, the game is a random dice-fest. Sure you can mitigate the randomness to some degree but there are times when the game is simply playing you, regardless of who is behind the wheel. I've found, after well over 500 games online or in the boardgame, that the result of 2 skilled players playing tier 1 teams will be decided by dice. Even Kasparov would curse Nuffle playing this wretched game.  I've been playing this game forever, starting with the very first boardgame edition back in the 80s and for some reason the masochist in me keeps playing, even though I truly hate the game. I've always wished they would "fix" Blood Bowl for what I  see as egregious problems: random dice crapfest, unbalanced teams, long play time (boardgame version), and much much more.

This season I promised myself I would play for fun and try to not get bent out of shape. I've mostly been calm, but a few games left me quite upset, especially when my orcs keep failing 9 AV rolls, with or without MB and/or claw!!  In the game we played nothing went wrong for me and everything went wrong for you. I didn't feel as though I earned a victory, I just went along for the ride. I blocked and your players went off the pitch. You blocked and nothing happened. I don't know I keep playing this darn game.

In hope of finding an alternative, I am right now painting my Dreadball miniatures. I sure hope this game is more of what I'm looking for.  

[Sjofn]

It was absolutely not you, don't feel bad. And I can't imagine how much more I'd be pissed about this season had I been playing your team, as orcs are not supposed to get completely murdered like your poor guys have been.

edit: Also, we can stop talking about me and my issues, this isn't really the thread for it. Sorry for the derail! 

[rk47]

Yes, let's talk about the humans. Our catchers are pretty much crippled Gutter Runners, man. Is there anyway to use them that doesn't resort on praying hard they don't get knocked out or injured when they had to take that inevitable blitz?

[Ruvaldt]

Catchers are essentially GRs with a lower MA and AGI.  If you are comparing a Human team against Skaven though, Humans make up for that by having four blitzers, better linemen and better throwers.  You could potentially build a Human team without catchers, but I wouldn't.  Blitzers are the key to a good Human team though.

I've built two good catchers.  Commodus was my first, and had over 20 TDs in his career, and had the skills: Fend, Block, Side-Step, Pass-Block in addition to his starting skills.  He was a good scorer, but also a good diversion that people generally had a hard time controlling while I pounded down the field with my blitzers and Maximinus Thrax, my star thrower.  He was a deep threat that people couldn't ignore, but he was never my first solution to getting a TD.  Either way, block and side step were the most important skills.  I first started him with the intent of making him a mobile tackle assist, but he never got a double for guard so I switched him into a more offensive and coverage build.  If he had gotten guard I probably would have gone with Diving Tackle and Shadowing over Fend and Pass-Block.  

In the event that I was playing a team with lots of tackle or was generally bashy I would keep him next to my thrower at all times as I caged up, and I would hand off the ball to him for a score once I was within striking range; that way he stayed out of harms way, and extended my range without him being in danger.

My second good catcher, Volusianus, is a blitzing catcher.  He has Wrestle, Tackle and Strip Ball.  His next skill will be Dauntless, which I should have taken earlier, but even on a STR2 vs STR 3+ blitz he has a good chance of knocking out the ball.  He fulfills the same role as a blitzing GR, and he has been quite successful.  He's also useful offensively in a pinch, and has scored 8 TDs, usually when I didn't have anyone else to go to or when he knocked down a ball carrier and made off with a TD.

Human catchers get a bad rap, but they're really useful.  They fulfill a number of needed roles on a successful Human team.  Roles that are hard for other pieces to mimic because blitzers should be occupied with other tasks, such as lots of guard, mighty blow, and at least one with frenzy.

[rk47]

Yeah I did build my blitzers the same way, but the whole human setup of 'not relying on passes' and go for caged runs seem to be heavily reliant on bashing a hole open. Cause 3 AG dodges isn't really that safe. I'm just feeling that the Skaven options are really good early on and access to mutations made their squad specialty extra sharp at late game.
While the humans are just never going to get that 'sharp' team specialty unless a few members get a lucky double 6 on levels.

Yes, I was partly trolling when I said they suck, but what I really meant was - they're not super good and need some luck to go your way. Cause the dice is sure isn't that kind when you're average on the physical stat lines. And someone killed my ogre.

[Ruvaldt]

It wouldn't really make sense for Humans to have Skaven GRs AND the normal Human advantages of more blitzers, better linemen and better throwers though.  Both have STR2 at least.  You make up for that with Dauntless, usually, and that goes for both sides.  You trade one advantage for the other.  3AG dodges aren't bad though when you have the dodge skill by default.  Sure, it's not perfect, but nothing is in Blood Bowl.  That said, I nearly won two D&Ms with Humans if it hadn't been for a failed dodge from a catcher.

Catchers are useful, but not necessarily for catching.  That's one way of minimizing that need for luck you mentioned.  Blood Bowl is all about winning while rolling less, not more.  If you use your catchers to make your opponent roll more dice than they normally need to they're doing their job.

[rk47]

I just want a STR 3 Catcher.

[Ingmar]

I find that ignoring the names of "thrower" and "catcher" in favor of "ball handler" and "safety/marker/assist guy" helps quite a bit with accepting humans for their strengths.

[IainC]

Cause 3 AG dodges isn't really that safe...

Agi 3 with dodge into a clear square has an 8/9 chance of success.

[eldaec]

For comparison it is exactly as safe as a 2D block without the block skill or a reroll.

[lamaros]

Ie: Not that safe. ;)

Humans are an ok side, but you can't get away with playing as recklessly as you might with some other sides.

[eldaec]

Don't know what you mean about playing recklessly with other teams.... I only attempted 70 dodges last game with skaven...


(Though to illustrate a serious point that number implies 2 turnovers on gutter runners, or 7 turnovers on humans)

[eldaec]

Also. Regarding the random dice fest comments, there is a reason people like ruvaldt, drogg, llyse (when not choking in finals) tend to win all the matches.

It isn't dice rolling.

We have a bigger issue with experience variation. Our coaches have anything from zero to hundreds of matches.

[Llyse]

Also. Regarding the random dice fest comments, there is a reason people like ruvaldt, drogg, llyse (when not choking in finals) tend to win all the matches.

It isn't dice rolling.

We have a bigger issue with experience variation. Our coaches have anything from zero to hundreds of matches.

You can still get nuffle raped but there is a difference. I always felt like playing AndyDavo was just completely and utterly overwhelming increasing my likeliness to choke...

I do understand when you do your best at minimisation but you can't even make a GFI to score when your opponent picks up, dodges out, throws, avoids a pick and makes the catch and a GFI icing on top. C'est la BloodBowl 

[eldaec]

And certainly nuffle can fuck you by the odd touchdown, but the thing about that pickup dodge dodge pass catch gfi touchdown, is that if it happens more than once every few games, you were likely playing a bullshit based team who was engineering a 30% chance of doing it every 2nd turn you were in possession.

[Ruvaldt]

I rarely lose a game that I don't deserve to lose.

Except for our last match, Eldaec.  That one was bullshit.