f13.net

Regular season will end shortly, and traditionally there is a gap before the new season starts up again.

Nonetheless, there must always be a Stark Blood Bowl in F13.

In the past we've played out a slightly less serious business league within the feeder league. This is a good way to try new teams, develop teams for season 8, and just to get more matches played in the feeder league.

For those who haven't taken part before, the D&M is a swiss format league, meaning each set of fixtures are drawn on the basis of matching people with the same approximate score - as such you play more games against people in your own skill bracket. The structure also means we can take any number of participants.

This thread is an interest check for D&M III.

Also post here if you have any views on entry criteria. In the past the D&M has had one entry criteria : team must be in the feeder league (the swiss process takes care of any mismatches). But given the way some of the newer teams struggled in season 7 I'd be open to saying new teams only for this edition if people feel strongly about it.


Basic D&M rules

 :drill:  All matches will be played within the feeder league - to take part your team needs to meet the feeder league rules and get into that league.
 :drill:  One team per coach
 :drill:  Matches and standings will be announced in a thread.
 :drill:  Matches will be determined on a swiss tournament basis.
 :drill:  We'll play out a bunch of rounds depending on how many teams sign up, team with the most points at the end of that time takes the trophy, or a playoff will split a tie.
 :drill:  You can still play other feeder league matches with your D&M trophy team if you want. (never stop playing feeder league)
 :drill:  Winner automatically qualifies for the feeder league masters.

I'm in. I like the idea of fresh teams to start with but I'm not going to argue strongly against existing teams taking part either.

I'd be in with either my Underworld or Chaos Dwarf team.

I think I can swing this.

In, I don't care what team rules we use, new or old.

i'm in if MA is in as long as i can murderfuck whatever nambypamby team he dares to bring.  i have a dusty tv 1250 nurgle team i could throw in the mix, maybe. or a fresh khorne team. don't care about new teams but maybe a tv ceiling to keep things from starting out of hand?  1400?

I'm ok with a TV ceiling 1300/1400

I have ALL the teams ready to fuck something up  :grin:

Yes.

Depending on interest, it might actually be a good idea to run a completely vanilla Swiss tourney, to give all interested newcomers a more level experience. I'm fine for either/or, however.

I'm interested!

Up for more Bloodbowl.

I have one crazy idea!   One team of each kind only!  i.e., one dwarf team, one chaos dwarf team, one halfling team.  I like variety.  Who gets to pick what team is left as an exercise for the reader.

lottery with video from IainC  :drill:

That might be Peak Nuffle.   :grin:

Agreed with the caveat that we should probably leave out the joke teams.

Highlander format can work, but you'd have to have some kind of randomised draw to determine who gets what, and which teams are eligible. Perhaps stick to Tier 0 & Tier 1 teams only.

Interested: check

I'm interested.  Whatever is decided upon I'll go with, but as far as I care, if we did go with all vanilla teams, we should make a more active drive to attract new players as well.  As far as Highlander styling goes, depending on interest level, we may not have enough teams to accommodate every player without touching the tier 2/3s.  In a neutral fresh environment, Halflings are actually pretty spry  :grin:

I'm a fan of 1 player per race. Lottery me!

I'd do a lottery video if you like.

I tend to think highlander would be a better for a gimmick league than this.

Of course I'm in.

I like the randomization and 1 side only ideas, but it doesn't seem appropriate for the D&M tourney, which has always been a pretty straightforward tournament that gives people a chance to use their Feeder League teams, and maybe develop them for future use in the regular season.

Plus, I always run the gimmick tourneys.   :oh_i_see:

This is a good point. D&M does have its history, and the whole Masters feeder thing.

I don't usually play side leagues, but I'll chime in to point out that assigning teams by lottery would be a waste of a golden opportunity. Races should be drafted in order of f13 power ranking (noobs first), OR set it up so that each coach is assigned a race by their competitors somehow.

I'm interested in the league, what ever rules it may follow.

But Andydavo's not around anymore to get halflings.  :cry:

*has no interest in playing new team aside from humans but then again humans suck. mmm. Maybe skaven?*

Pure genius.

Humans won the D&M II and Master's I tournaments here.  They definitely don't suck.

FTFY  :grin:

I'm in, though I'm not interested in random teams.

I'll probably play either Pro Elves or maybe Humans if I can bring in a TV 1100 team from another league.  Might also play a fresh Undead or Nurgle team if I come up with a naming scheme I like.

The random teams is a funny idea, but I do think that's more of a goofy-side-tournament thing. That said, I don't care enough to fuss over it!

I'll play, because I hate myself. Somewhere Ingmar just made a >< face.

I'm in if this is the theme. Or for whatever side league is generated with this gimmick instead if we go that route.

I have an idea of how to do the Highlander theme so I'll run that as a separate gimmick league after the main league is done if people want to do that. Then the D&M can be a general feeder-league event like it always has been.

I bumped the PC/console gaming blood bowl thread yesterday. Some of you should go post in it.

Actually, fuck blood bowl forever, I withdraw myself from this thing.

(http://s5.tinypic.com/259v6lu.jpg)

Humans are #1 in the Feeder League for the past two years.  Maybe it's how you play them...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/829607/Bloodbowl/hmm.gif)

:heartbreak:

Yeah. Me too. Me too.

Sorry, this season has shoved me in a decidedly SirT direction, and I can tell it's not going to get any better. :heartbreak:

Try Orks. Or anything that isn't AV7.

Orks or Dwarfs, yeah.  Although nothing is as humbling an experience as playing Halflings.  :grin:

It's really not a matter of "try a team with higher AV."

Honestly, you would be surprised.

I've played dwarves, I do not like them. I've played orcs, I do not like them. This season has not actually been worse me-getting-beat-up-wise than prior season (I'm not even in the worst punching bag list, which I certainly have been in seasons past!), and it's not the thing that's made it clear that I should quit for my own good.

What it actually is, I do not like how badly you can get fucked by luck. I found it frustrating in the seasons prior to this (and I had a good run in the last one I played in!), but it has been agonizing this season. I just can't quite make peace with doing everything right and still losing because the dice decided "fuck you." Some people can, but I am not one of those people, it turns out. I know I am not nearly as bad as my record this season indicates, and it bothers me. It bothers me way more than it should. That makes it pretty clear I should quit.

Nobody likes Dwarves. Seriously, fuck Dwarf teams.

But in your case, given the way you played in the matches we had, I'd really recommend trying with a team that has some STR4. Possibly in a few months after you've had a break and when Nuffle has got distracted and is picking on someone else.

All the human teams tail off playing against other developed sides unless they have a coach with a couple of hundred matches under their belt.

Just play Chaos.

Chaos is very satisfying eventually.  Their first ten or so matches are frustrating though.

heh, after four seasons.

Sfojn, give it a few days. I've just had my team in fumbbl smashed to bits over two games (from 1800 to 1200), and I've got to play another 2k TV Chaos Dwarf team next round. Worst part is, I've had atrocious dice in those two games. Even when I was able to catch a break and push my opponents into a bad situation, I'd get shafted. 3-die trip skulls, armour breaks 24/7, AG4 failing 2+ all day every day. Nearly quit in disgust after the last game.

But it gets better =)

I get where Sjofn is coming from, it's not just 'Man I keep losing due to BULLSHIT!!!' but more, 'This is a game that I can play perfectly but still lose through no fault of my own.' It's not about having a bad streak , it's about playing a game where your skill can be entirely counteracted by dumb luck and that this isn't necessarily a freakish occurrence but can happen with regularity. If that basic aspect of the game bothers you then no matter which teams you play or for how long, you are ultimately not going to enjoy it. A terrible losing streak doesn't cause that problem, it just highlights the existence of it.

Sjofn's a good player, she knows how to play the game and how to manage risk, it's not that she needs to try harder or experiment with different teams, there's a fundamental problem with the luck/skill balance for her that won't be fixed by playing a different side.

Thing is, it becomes easier to manage bad luck when the consequences for failure are smaller. Some teams allow for this. Obviously just switching teams might not be the answer, but often it is a difference between "oh man, I have shitty luck and didn't kill any of their dudes" and "oh man I have shitty luck and all my mans died".

In most cases though, I recommend sleeping on it.

You get me, man. You get me.  :heart:

Sjofn, I feel bad now.  :?

I was your last opponent, getting my first win this season vs your Norse, so I apologize. If it makes you feel any better, after our game I felt bad that you suffered what has happened to me in my first 5 games: playing well and having the game run over your team with poor rolls, making it feel as though you are watching a game and not playing one. This was the first game this season where I didn't feel like the punching-bag of division 2. I'm the team they talk about in the forums that has had his team mangled every game, and I'm playing ORCS!!!  In my first 5 games I think I've had 5-6 deaths (some of them Starplayers), multiple injuries, countless KOs, and pretty much every kickoff event has crushed me. In one game I suffered two blitzes against me, a Pitch Invasion that left me with 2 players standing, and a couple of other bad kickoff events. Whoever thought the random kickoff event table was a good idea should never make games again, period!

I couldn't agree with you more about Blood Bowl though, the game is a random dice-fest. Sure you can mitigate the randomness to some degree but there are times when the game is simply playing you, regardless of who is behind the wheel. I've found, after well over 500 games online or in the boardgame, that the result of 2 skilled players playing tier 1 teams will be decided by dice. Even Kasparov would curse Nuffle playing this wretched game.  I've been playing this game forever, starting with the very first boardgame edition back in the 80s and for some reason the masochist in me keeps playing, even though I truly hate the game. I've always wished they would "fix" Blood Bowl for what I  see as egregious problems: random dice crapfest, unbalanced teams, long play time (boardgame version), and much much more.

This season I promised myself I would play for fun and try to not get bent out of shape. I've mostly been calm, but a few games left me quite upset, especially when my orcs keep failing 9 AV rolls, with or without MB and/or claw!!  In the game we played nothing went wrong for me and everything went wrong for you. I didn't feel as though I earned a victory, I just went along for the ride. I blocked and your players went off the pitch. You blocked and nothing happened. I don't know I keep playing this darn game.

In hope of finding an alternative, I am right now painting my Dreadball miniatures. I sure hope this game is more of what I'm looking for.   :awesome_for_real:

It was absolutely not you, don't feel bad. And I can't imagine how much more I'd be pissed about this season had I been playing your team, as orcs are not supposed to get completely murdered like your poor guys have been.

edit: Also, we can stop talking about me and my issues, this isn't really the thread for it. Sorry for the derail!  :why_so_serious:

Yes, let's talk about the humans. Our catchers are pretty much crippled Gutter Runners, man. Is there anyway to use them that doesn't resort on praying hard they don't get knocked out or injured when they had to take that inevitable blitz?

Catchers are essentially GRs with a lower MA and AGI.  If you are comparing a Human team against Skaven though, Humans make up for that by having four blitzers, better linemen and better throwers.  You could potentially build a Human team without catchers, but I wouldn't.  Blitzers are the key to a good Human team though.

I've built two good catchers.  Commodus was my first, and had over 20 TDs in his career, and had the skills: Fend, Block, Side-Step, Pass-Block in addition to his starting skills.  He was a good scorer, but also a good diversion that people generally had a hard time controlling while I pounded down the field with my blitzers and Maximinus Thrax, my star thrower.  He was a deep threat that people couldn't ignore, but he was never my first solution to getting a TD.  Either way, block and side step were the most important skills.  I first started him with the intent of making him a mobile tackle assist, but he never got a double for guard so I switched him into a more offensive and coverage build.  If he had gotten guard I probably would have gone with Diving Tackle and Shadowing over Fend and Pass-Block.  

In the event that I was playing a team with lots of tackle or was generally bashy I would keep him next to my thrower at all times as I caged up, and I would hand off the ball to him for a score once I was within striking range; that way he stayed out of harms way, and extended my range without him being in danger.

My second good catcher, Volusianus, is a blitzing catcher.  He has Wrestle, Tackle and Strip Ball.  His next skill will be Dauntless, which I should have taken earlier, but even on a STR2 vs STR 3+ blitz he has a good chance of knocking out the ball.  He fulfills the same role as a blitzing GR, and he has been quite successful.  He's also useful offensively in a pinch, and has scored 8 TDs, usually when I didn't have anyone else to go to or when he knocked down a ball carrier and made off with a TD.

Human catchers get a bad rap, but they're really useful.  They fulfill a number of needed roles on a successful Human team.  Roles that are hard for other pieces to mimic because blitzers should be occupied with other tasks, such as lots of guard, mighty blow, and at least one with frenzy.

Yeah I did build my blitzers the same way, but the whole human setup of 'not relying on passes' and go for caged runs seem to be heavily reliant on bashing a hole open. Cause 3 AG dodges isn't really that safe. I'm just feeling that the Skaven options are really good early on and access to mutations made their squad specialty extra sharp at late game.
While the humans are just never going to get that 'sharp' team specialty unless a few members get a lucky double 6 on levels.

Yes, I was partly trolling when I said they suck, but what I really meant was - they're not super good and need some luck to go your way. Cause the dice is sure isn't that kind when you're average on the physical stat lines. And someone killed my ogre.

It wouldn't really make sense for Humans to have Skaven GRs AND the normal Human advantages of more blitzers, better linemen and better throwers though.  Both have STR2 at least.  You make up for that with Dauntless, usually, and that goes for both sides.  You trade one advantage for the other.  3AG dodges aren't bad though when you have the dodge skill by default.  Sure, it's not perfect, but nothing is in Blood Bowl.  That said, I nearly won two D&Ms with Humans if it hadn't been for a failed dodge from a catcher.

Catchers are useful, but not necessarily for catching.  That's one way of minimizing that need for luck you mentioned.  Blood Bowl is all about winning while rolling less, not more.  If you use your catchers to make your opponent roll more dice than they normally need to they're doing their job.

I just want a STR 3 Catcher.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/829607/disregarded/weok.gif)

I find that ignoring the names of "thrower" and "catcher" in favor of "ball handler" and "safety/marker/assist guy" helps quite a bit with accepting humans for their strengths.

Agi 3 with dodge into a clear square has an 8/9 chance of success.

For comparison it is exactly as safe as a 2D block without the block skill or a reroll.

Ie: Not that safe. ;)

Humans are an ok side, but you can't get away with playing as recklessly as you might with some other sides.

Don't know what you mean about playing recklessly with other teams.... I only attempted 70 dodges last game with skaven...


(Though to illustrate a serious point that number implies 2 turnovers on gutter runners, or 7 turnovers on humans)

Also. Regarding the random dice fest comments, there is a reason people like ruvaldt, drogg, llyse (when not choking in finals) tend to win all the matches.

It isn't dice rolling.

We have a bigger issue with experience variation. Our coaches have anything from zero to hundreds of matches.

You can still get nuffle raped but there is a difference. I always felt like playing AndyDavo was just completely and utterly overwhelming increasing my likeliness to choke...

I do understand when you do your best at minimisation but you can't even make a GFI to score when your opponent picks up, dodges out, throws, avoids a pick and makes the catch and a GFI icing on top. C'est la BloodBowl  :heartbreak: :heart:

And certainly nuffle can fuck you by the odd touchdown, but the thing about that pickup dodge dodge pass catch gfi touchdown, is that if it happens more than once every few games, you were likely playing a bullshit based team who was engineering a 30% chance of doing it every 2nd turn you were in possession.

I rarely lose a game that I don't deserve to lose.

Except for our last match, Eldaec.  That one was bullshit.   :grin:

Personally, I feel that losing Blood Bowl is much more aggravating than winning is fun. It's not that I can't deal with losing and it's definitely not that I feel the dice are screwing me out of games I should be winning. In fact, it's the opposite. I've been trained to believe that in any competitive game the law of large numbers eventually wins out and the more skilled player will win. But Blood Bowl's randomness sits in this weird sweet spot where the random events happen often enough that I feel one game should generally be enough to make everything shake out, but still impactful enough that a little streakiness can make all of your plans go to shit. And as far as f13 goes I'm a solidly middle-of-the-pack coach, so I assume that whenever I lose it's because I got outplayed and whenever I win it's because of the dice. All of my "check out this awesome thing I did" moments are undermined because I know they only happened thanks to rolling three 6's and a 4.

Frankly, I've considered taking a break for each of the last few seasons. Something makes me keep coming back and I have no idea what it is.

The biggest challenge to fun is simply that this is 1v1 PvP game. Nowhere to hide, no cooperative play, definitive loser (sometimes 2) after each match.

Can you how long an f13 chess league would last?

Based on MMO history, about 1 month.

But in that month everyone would say it was the best thing ever!   :oh_i_see:

Getting back to D&M, I'm torn between a new team and playing something I have on file.  I can't decide between giving Goblins or Halflings a go (now that I'm a little older, and a little wiser), or trying Agility bullshit again.

Depends. if Cyanide made the client, there'd be a random bug where one side could start with 3 queens or your knights might go missing. The UI would be a confusing mess, the auto camera would give you vertigo and you might accidentally click the button to end your turn while trying to look at the last row on the board. Also if you disconnected there would be no way to resume the game later.

All I know is I'm not playing my damn Khemri.

I was thinking of elves but I started a high elf team in the Forum Open League and it has been brutal.  Three dead elves in the first three games, bleuargh.  The opponents are remarkably good, though.   So good practice, but painful.

Maybe I should dust off the Golden Hamsters.  We always need more rats.

I'd love to play with the Emperors again, but my veteran blitzers are mostly dead now, and I'm not sure if I want to rebuild.  I've been futzing around with a Khorne team lately.  I'm really impressed with some of their pieces.  Developing a stable of Bloodletters with all of their advancement options sounds like a lot of fun.  I'm still sad that the team didn't at least get mutation access on doubles, but oh well.

Honestly I am starting to lean towards the 'fresh teams' idea for this iteration, after the mostly brutal welcome our new players have had in the regular season. Give them a chance to build something up without as much pressure.

I'm almost certain the rule is going to be...

'Doesn't have to be brand new but no more than a handful of random matches - don't be a dick and put your 30 match veterans in'

I'm probably going to use my 3 match old dark elves.

BLOOD BOWL NEEDS FRESH BLOOD TO REPLACE SJOFN (down for a freshish team)

I'd probably join too, though the idea of only one of each type of team worries me.  I'd hate to get stuck with halflings or something like that...

Pretty sure we're not going that route.  Leagues that do that sort of thing also usually rule out the joke teams.

I'm up to play, still undecided. Definitely not humans though. Fresh team of something not human. Maybe skavens.

I've decided not to take part in this after all  :oh_i_see:

:heartbreak:

We're going with "New or nearly teams, don't be a dick about it."

Now post in the other thread.

Hmm. Interesting thing y'all have got going here. Quite interesting indeed.

Oh, yes. Hello, first time poster, lurked for five minutes or something like that. Heard there some Blood Bowl playing around these parts, and, as I didn't want to sully the more official looking sign up thread just yet, I was hoping to pop in for a moment to see if no one would mind if little ol' me could come in and play. True, there is the 'Who's Who' thread up at the top of the stickies, but that would be a little presumptuous to be posting in there, no?

Think that sums it up really, just curious if this is an established Gentleman's Club or if any straggler could walk in from the cold and enjoy a game or thirteen. If it's the latter, well I guess I've got a bunch of cupcake lovin' High Elves that I can transfer* over, if the former... well... then.... I guess awkwardness would ensue. I can do awkward.


(* and by transfer I mean start over from scratch. Not to worry, I have read over the house rules, and I doubt I can do as bad with them starting out as I did the first time. The elves I mean, not the rules. *whistles*)

You can start by posting a pic of a guy fingering a girls forehead stabby

Blood god demands more blood!

New players very welcome. Once you submit a team to the feeder league (see feeder league thread) make sure you post name etc, so that the feeder league approval people know you are legit.

Well that's nice and simple way to get in. Question, is this a specific image that we're talking about, or can I pick any within the subgenre of.... actually, what would that qualify under?

...

Okay, serious hat is on, and I will definitely drop a line to properly warn the feeder league grand poobah of my impending arrival onto the premises, figure a quick note in both the Who' Who & General Feeder league thread would be a safe bet? Well, after I do whip up a fresh batch of blood sacrifices players that is.

Sounds good to me.  I or Lamaros can approve your team pretty quickly.  Just let us know what your coach name is so we don't confuse you with the riffraff.  Also, remember to join the f13 Bloodbowlers Steam group.  That's one of the primary ways in which we coordinate matches.

Speaking of which, I need to get three or so games in before the D&M starts.  Any takers this Thursday or on the weekend?

I'll be up for it. Ping me on Steam.

likewise

Awesome.   :drill:

This is why we need more gore pic, stabby.
Anyways, I'm in. Will submit a team when I get home tonight.

Cool beans. Just applied to the (hopefully right) league, High Elven team coached by a fool named stabby to be specifc. Will quickly post the full details of my person in the who's who thread now.

You're approved.  Play away.  And sign up for the D&M tournament; we need more people to beat up.