Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)

[Evildrider]

Yeah, Norton was a huge douche on the set apparently.

[Teleku]

Huh.  So I guess Birdman was actually a documentary then?

[jgsugden]

Huh?  That's bs, cuz they reshuffled the schedule like months later for Spider-Man.  Hulk movies have just not performed well enough, and that is the reason it's not happening.  

Spider-man is their most valuable character historically.  Hulk is not in the same league, although he is one of their top 10. 

Regardless, you're 100% right that Hulk did not earn the sequel.  However, that is because Marvel has limited numbers of slots to fill and it decided that the other films were more likely to be profitable.  That is not the same thing as saying a Hulk sequel would not be profitable and that Incredible Hulk was a failure.  Finding the smallest crate of money would not be a bad thing, and being the least valuable Marvel film to date doesn't mean you were a flop.

[sickrubik]

No one said it was a failure or a flop. At least since I've been reading it. No one said it was not profitable.

Mind you, it would be interesting to see the actual financials on that, taking into account Marketing, etc. I'm sure it still made profit, just curious to see what the end result is.

[jgsugden]

After factoring in revenue from television, Netflix, product marketing, etc...?  Hard to determine how many Hulk Hands or glasses with a Hulk face should be attributed to the films, but Marvel is not a sad puppy over Incredible Hulk.

Regardless, when people object to me saying that there was no crap in the Marvel movies/tv, and people talk about the 'missteps' that Marvel has made, they're saying something.  Is it flop or failure?  Not exactly.  But it isn't reality, either.  Marvel has few, if any, regrets since 2008.

[Khaldun]

I think the more fascinating thing by far is that you don't have to go back far beyond 2006 to find the company, for odd reasons mostly attributable to its bizarre entanglement with Perelman, not really valuing the cinematic potential of its characters at all. That's a way more interesting moment to dissect and puzzle over. The Sean Howe book is pretty good on how things came to that pass.

[jgsugden]

Tilda Swinton read the Dr. Strange script and said something really good to hear about Dr. Strange: "I just really liked the premise of this and the idea of playing this character. I’m a Marvel fan and I think this particular world that Doctor Strange goes into is really, really, really exciting. I’m really interested as both an actor and a fan to see what’s done in this particular world…It’s all about creativity. It’s not about everything exploding at the end. It’s about something very different. The idea of playing The Ancient One is really just too tickling. I can’t say no to that!"

I hope she meant that literally and that this is more of a psychological film that doesn't end with a shoot out against the Mindless Ones... *pew, pew, pew*  Every Marvel film ends up with a big explosive battle at the end of the film - it'd be nice to see one end like Empire Strikes Back - less of a war, more of a personal conflict with larger ramifications...

...and I'm hearing that if you see only one Marvel movie in IMAX 3D, it should be Ant-man.  It may not be the best Marvel movie, but it is the one that most benefits from the 3D Imax experience.

[eldaec]

She might mean that, but Disney do not.

Everything is going to explode at the end.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Love or hate marvel movies they have all followed a very strict formula so far. Of course netflix has deviated slightly with a darker tone and shield has deviated with a slightly brown tone but the movies themselves are all very in line with one another.

[Evildrider]

Love or hate marvel movies they have all followed a very strict formula so far. Of course netflix has deviated slightly with a darker tone and shield has deviated with a slightly brown tone but the movies themselves are all very in line with one another.

I have no problem with the way Marvel is controlling their movies.  You really can't let every director just cut loose and maintain a cohesive universe.

[jgsugden]

Note that her words come after she read the script.  She seems to be saying it is not a big explosion ending. 

I prefer to hold out hope that we might start to see them widen their formula a bit - I think some of the negative feedback from AoU could get through to them.  I think AoU is a fine spectacle film, but it could have been so much more.  If you go back to read what Whedon said about the film back when he was first announced for it, he spoke about making it a smaller film and a more personal film.  You can see the bones of that movie in AoU, but it is bloated in too much explosion at the end.  After getting some room from the film, I think I'd love to see Whedon's first cut of the film - although he intends to never do a Director's Cut.

[NowhereMan]

I agree in principle. Marvel have definitely made some room for exploration with things like Cap 2 at least playing at being a thriller. I'd like to see if they're confident enough in the brand to let some of the smaller properties explore more, relying on the name to pull in audiences and trusting that a good movie will work. That said it's a risk and one thing studio execs don't like is risk. I'm also not convinced that a production team that have really managed to do well with big action spectacle movies are going to do as well guiding a director trying a more thoughtful, personal film.

[Merusk]

The D23 convention had some concept art about Dr. Strange in the form of a "Sizzle reel" apparently, but it's only meant for convention-goers. We'll see if it gets leaked or not, but Strange evidently had a few different costumes, including the traditional Sorcerer Supreme cape and tunic.  Marvel did confirm that his comics back-story of brilliant surgeon in a wreck is the 'backbone' of the movie.

Strange is one I'll happily go see in the theaters again. Ant-Man left me kind of 'meh' overall.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/15/d23-2015-doctor-strange-revealed

[Evildrider]

Highly doubt there will be any leaks from D23, as they check for cellphone and recording devices.

[jgsugden]

More and more talk about Doc Strange being a departure from the other Marvel films.  At this point, I'll be disappointed if it follows the standard 3 act format of the other Marvel movies.

[Margalis]

Winter Soldier, Ant Man and Iron Man 3 were also all billed as departures.

[jgsugden]

Winter Soldier, Ant Man and Iron Man 3 were also all billed as departures.

Winter Soldier, to an extent, was a departure in the design of the first two acts.  There was no secret that Act 3 was MUCH XPLOSION TANK U.  Ant Man was supposed to be more humorous, but there was a big deal made about making it more like the other films.  I don't recall any discussion of IM 3 being anything but KICK KICK BANG BANG PEW PEW.

Doc Strange is being discussed distinctly differently, IMO.  If it is origin/set up characters for 30 minutes, set up conflict for 45 minutes, battle evil forces in big battle for 45 minutes I'll be disappointed.  That is pretty much the path of every Marvel film to date... I'm looking for something other than a war against an army of mindless ones in act III.

[Bunk]

Ironman 3 was a departure all right... God the last half of that movie sucked.

[Ironwood]

The first half wasn't that much better.

[jgsugden]

IM 3 was poorly executed, but it was the same basic formula: 1/3 setting up the character; 1/3 setting up the conflict; 1/3 giant battle at the end.  I want a more personal conflict for the end of the film in Dr. Strange - not a battle to save the world.

[Merusk]

I'm not going to hold my breath there.

I even expect the Ancient One to die at the climax to Act2 so we have even more investment for Act3's big battle against Dormamu.

[Khaldun]

If they use the classic Mordo-Dormammu stories that Lee and Ditko told early in Strange's history, I think it might depart at least some from the usual template and be more personal. There's still going to be "big stakes", obviously, in that Strange is the most powerful sorcerer in his dimension and that Dormammu basically is a demon who wants to turn our universe into hell. But the classic story goes somewhat like this:

Strange confronts Mordo in something of a "cold open"--they have history, they've fought before, but Mordo is mysteriously more powerful than ever. Strange gets his butt kicked and has to run for it.
Strange goes looking for some of his usual mystic allies and along the way reflects on his backstory. He finds that everyone is either hiding or incapacitated because Mordo has evil allies.
Strange goes back to find his mentor and has to elude a mystic dragnet several times. More backstory as he gets nearer to the Ancient One's hangout--he can't get a hold of the Ancient One via magical Internet, so he's worried.
Ancient One has been holding off attacks, is enfeebled. Tells Strange that Mordo has a terrible secret. Strange stands with his mentor to face Mordo, loses and at the last second realizes that Mordo is getting his power from somewhere else--and his mentor tells him it's an evil guy from another dimension called Dormammu.
Strange in desperation travels to the Dark Dimension, home of Dormammu, to attack the problem at its source. He meets Clea, hot sorcereress from the Dark Dimension, who gives him a secret plan: release the Mindless Ones just before fighting Dormammu. Dormammu is crushing Strange and then almost gets overwhelmed by the Mindless Ones, Strange offers to help put them back. Dormammu has to accept and lets Strange go because he's indebted.
Strange goes back but Mordo is still fueled by Dormammu's power and kidnaps the Ancient One. The Ancient One tells Strange to seek the secret of Eternity. Several dimensional trips and dropping several tabs of acid later, Strange meets Eternity, who says Strange doesn't need anything more to beat Dormammu and Mordo. So Strange goes back and basically outthinks Mordo in a fight. Which pisses off good ol' Dormy and he teleports everybody to a sort of Fight Club Dimension where he and Strange can have it out. Strange challenges him to a kind of martial arts thing and basically tricks Dormammu into overconfidence. Strange wins, Dormammu swears not to destroy Earth, and then he sends Clea off to some toilet bowl dimension as punishment. The End.

Mostly personal, no Third Act with demons pouring out of portals. I think this would work pretty well at escaping the formula. It's more like Ant-Man in plot structure.

[jgsugden]

I like that model, Khaldun.

One thing I have been thinking about: Dr. Strange, in some ways, is like Superman.  They have so much power that it can be ridiculous to challenge them.  I think, like Superman, some of the best stories are not about trying to beat Superman/Dr. Strange, but about having to bear the burden of being Superman/Dr. Strange.  To that end, I think a story where the struggle is to find out what is the right thing to do as the Sorcerer Supreme is more interesting than pew pew pew pew battles with Mindless Ones.  Of course, this can go ridiculously wrong, too - Superman IV.

[Khaldun]

Strange's best stories definitely involve him struggling with one of several basic dilemmas:

1) There are zillions of things out there in the dimensions surrounding Earth that are as strong as he is, but nobody knows about it except for him, and nobody can really do much about those things except him. And even he can't go on the offense against them, but has to wait for them (partly because if he went after one of them, the others would probably use that as a chance to attack; partly because some of them literally cannot be destroyed or defeated with any finality, like Mephisto, Nightmare, or Shuma-Gorath). So he's the lonely guardian on the Wall, more or less. Whenever he tries to share his knowledge or bring people in on it, that usually goes badly. (As a result Strange also has a reputation among Marvel super-heroes for being a total cunt because he never tells them what's going on when he gets them involved in something.)

2) Magic depends a lot on believing in yourself and on a certain kind of wise humility (Marvel Universe edition.) Strange was an arrogant 1%-er surgeon and an alcoholic before he was brought down hard and spent years wandering like a beggar. He walks a knife's edge all the time about either losing his belief in himself or starting once again to think too much of himself. He's a psychological mess in a way that Superman never is.

3) Magic is knowledge-based and generally has to be matched to the specific situation. So if you're facing some new threat, you can't just whip out the utility spells and beat the shit out of it. Strange will have to find the key to every specific enemy or problem on its own terms, usually with the clock ticking.

 

[Merusk]

Which are all why Strange is the best hero. It all becomes more cerebral than the MU has gone so far, focusing on action and beat-em-ups. I don't think they're going to mess with a proven formula too much, but one can hope.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's a very cerebral character....until the movie hits and he's slinging more fireballs than Ryu.   

[Ironwood]

Yeah, that's my expectation.  Anyone that thinks this will get any more cerebral than, say, Sorcerers Apprentice is really fooling themselves.

[Khaldun]

Oh, it'll have a lot of action, I'm sure. But Dr. Strange stories usually do--it's not a bunch of shots of him in a library reading books--that is at best a kind of establishing shot they often use in the comics at the start of one of his stories.

He's actually not even that much of a thinker or plotter per se--he usually is playing catch-up all the time precisely because he has to sit on his ass in our dimension waiting for an attack. (Though one of my favorite Strange stories ever involved him out-thinking and destroying Dracula, so there's an exception to every rule.) He's almost always the underdog in his stories, which is another way that he's not at all like Superman--and that usually makes for a kind of frantic, breathless feel to most of his comics, as he races from one desperate situation to the next. I think the main way that he's like Superman is not the scale of his power but the scale of his responsibility, of being always on call. Superman can hear a little kid about to get hit by a car in New Delhi and has to rush there; Strange has to sit around in his Sanctum Sanctorum waiting for the Orb of Agamotto to tell him that there's a demon taking a shit on the Sistine Chapel.

Strange also doesn't really get a serious win a lot in the comics--e.g., he doesn't get to lock his bad guys up in jail, he doesn't get any sense of closure or finality, Ben Franklin gets to mack on his girlfriend, etc.

[jgsugden]

Khaldun is 100% right.

[Lakov_Sanite]

He's absolutely right about the stories and I hope he is right about the movie but after avengers2 and ant man I can't say my expectations are high at all.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, this is just comic fans wanking at this point.

It's funny when you go to the movies and the tugging stops.

[Merusk]

Yeah, that's my expectation.  Anyone that thinks this will get any more cerebral than, say, Sorcerers Apprentice is really fooling themselves.

Yep, exactly what I expect to be disappointed by.  Also why I've just stopped going to MCU movies at theaters beyond the first in the series. I can catch "captain beat-em-up-this-time-its-serious pt2" on DVD or HBO for cheaper than taking the family out.

[jgsugden]

Comic fans wanking - and explicit statements by the cast / crew about how this one is different.  Of course, that could be a bit like the guy in college that dates nothing but crazies and keeps saying, "Yeah, but this ones different..." over and over.

Only time will tell, but I feel like Feige, Swinton (It’s not about everything exploding at the end. It’s about something very different.), etc... are giving me hope for a different formula.  Feige absolutely knows they need to break up the pattern based upon his comments.

[Khaldun]

I guess here's what I'm wondering: do you guys think Daredevil followed the Marvel template? I don't think so--it has different story beats, even given that it's a series and not a 2-hour film. The Big Bad is established in a very different way and the stakes are largely personal, for all that Murdock (and Fisk!) both obsess about their vision of the city.

If they can establish Mordo as a dark mirror to Strange--someone who was on top of the world until some unworthy punk showed up, someone who had a vision of what magic could do for the world that wasn't the Ancient One's passivity--it could have a story structure more like Daredevil. Like most Marvel villains, Mordo started as a one-dimensional asshole (cowardly, power-hungry, incompetent, insecure) but there have been stories since that filled in his backstory--heir to a decadent aristocratic family who decided to make something of himself, a gifted sorcerer who originally had great affection for the Ancient One and respected his traditions, someone whose bitterness was somewhat justified in that his teacher threw him aside without even a kind word for a washed-up asshole Westerner, etc.

Anyway, we'll see. The wankery is strong for me on this one because Strange is really one of my favorite comic characters ever. I hope they can do it somewhat right. Guardians of the Galaxy has given me a lot of hope in terms of what Marvel Studios can do to at least capture the right feeling for something, even if they almost always have the same plot structure.

[HaemishM]

Daredevil did not follow the Marvel template and was amazing at least in part because of it. Of course, I'm partial to super heroes being told as longer form stories than 2-hour movies. While I love the MCU movies, I think eventually they are going to have some serious issues to face when 1) fatigue sets in on that type of 3-act blow up narrative structure and 2) they have to start replacing the actors who play the stars or replacing their star characters with others.  They hit most of the casting out of the park on the first try that replacing those people is going to be really difficult.