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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Diablo 3  |  Topic: Jay Wilson moving away from Diablo 3, Woo Ooo 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Jay Wilson moving away from Diablo 3, Woo Ooo  (Read 28922 times)
Yegolev
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Reply #280 on: June 12, 2013, 08:38:56 AM

The executives of large companies know how to run large companies (generally) but that isn't really what we are talking about here.  We're talking about cronyism and how it's limiting the potential of our favorite entertainment medium.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Ironwood
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Reply #281 on: June 12, 2013, 08:52:08 AM

The latest developer post on Battle.net is written from the PoV of the guy who was 'brought in' to port the console.

It's odd watching him admit to how it's all broken in the ways we've been saying it's been broken.

At least the honesty is refreshing.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Paelos
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Reply #282 on: June 12, 2013, 09:03:27 AM

He's right. So much of the game was screwed up. The ridiculous part was that the stuff they screwed up had almost nothing to do with the way the game plays.

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Yegolev
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Reply #283 on: June 12, 2013, 10:24:22 AM

Of course he's honest if he's not a crony. Ohhhhh, I see.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #284 on: June 12, 2013, 10:28:33 AM

He's right. So much of the game was screwed up. The ridiculous part was that the stuff they screwed up had almost nothing to do with the way the game plays.

What? Er, I mean, can you explain what you mean? I am having a slow brain this week.
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Reply #285 on: June 12, 2013, 01:00:14 PM

He's right. So much of the game was screwed up. The ridiculous part was that the stuff they screwed up had almost nothing to do with the way the game plays.

What? Er, I mean, can you explain what you mean? I am having a slow brain this week.

The things that people tend to perceive as problems - the auction house, the story, drop rates/itemization, online requirement - are all ancillary systems (if they're even systems at all). The actual core gameplay - character powers, movement, combat, responsiveness, etc. - has been the best in the genre pretty much since release. (With a few minor exceptions that they've largely patched, like some bullshit monster power combos and some lackluster build types like pet doctors.)

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Paelos
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Reply #286 on: June 12, 2013, 01:16:59 PM

Yep, that. It's all about stuff surrounding the game (AH, DRM, items) and not really about the killing, gameplay, or aesthetic.

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Ironwood
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Reply #287 on: June 12, 2013, 02:08:30 PM

That depends if you buy the skill and rune system.

I'm still undecided.  I like it for some classes, but not others.  Oddly.

Not willing to argue over it though.

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Typhon
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Reply #288 on: June 12, 2013, 02:08:57 PM

Disagree that character powers are core, but itemization is not - both are part of the core.  The way they implemented made itemization made it ancillary (because your item choices were limited to "bigger is better"), but D2 had it as a core element (because items choices could be "less damage, but more X").  That D3 didn't was a large issue.

Edit: fixed crappy sentences that meant nothing
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 02:45:04 PM by Typhon »
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Reply #289 on: June 12, 2013, 02:30:17 PM

For me, items are the game.  Gameplay is stuff I do to get better items.

The core systems of D3 range from decent to good, but poor itemization and better loot being trivially available in the AH are very large dings against the game.  In my opinion.
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Reply #290 on: June 12, 2013, 02:32:42 PM

I've always been a proponent that a large skill tree typically doesn't provide real choices. That's why when Wow's got so bloated over the years, they got rid of them. It was about making minute choices on 1 or 2 things while the rest were completely mandatory/obvious for the job. I feel the same way about stat points in this day and age of the internet. When it comes to numbers like that, there is a "right answer" and the other answer. It's not about choice, really.

The way itemization has been implemented is a complete fuckup. I disagree that it's any more ancillary than D2 though. At the core it's still drops from monsters to get stuff that's better to kill more monsters. It's just that the system in play renders many items useless in D3.

Item hunt is a goal, but not the game. The game is about killing things. The items are the reward/driver. The reason people are upset at the game is because the rewards/driver to play is messed up.

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MrHat
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Reply #291 on: June 12, 2013, 02:54:29 PM

I'm still shocked they didn't have +skills on items from L10 and up. 

With the console version coming in September, anyone know if they're going to enable controller scheme on the PC one?
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Reply #292 on: June 12, 2013, 03:09:40 PM

Ok, so far we've all agree that skills/powers are a core gameplay element.  In D1, skills came from item drops.  In that sense, items were core gameplay (and colors my thinking about every D game since - I actually like this mechanism).

If you were a player that got items based upon the skills you choose, then I can see why you would say that D2 didn't heavily drive core gameplay.

If you got items, and then built characters around those items, maybe you can see why I'd say that D2 itemization heavily drove core gameplay.

That items have little to do with what skills/abilities you choose in D3, making items ancilliary to the core, is an issue.

(gonna give up after this, don't think I can make it clearer than that)   <-- me acknowledging that I'm not explaining it very well, not a "I'm taking my ball and going home!" comment
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 03:37:51 PM by Typhon »
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Reply #293 on: June 12, 2013, 03:35:33 PM

Items were more interactive in D2 with the system. A simplified system that didn't interact with the items made them less important. I see your point. It's an interesting way to try to look at what was lost in terms of connected gameplay beyond just MOAR DAMAGE, which is what we have now.

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Yegolev
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Reply #294 on: June 12, 2013, 04:03:40 PM

Let's not start saying crazy-ass shit like "items are ancillary to a Diablo game".

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Xanthippe
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Reply #295 on: June 12, 2013, 08:18:54 PM

So this is why people tend to have similar specs at high levels in both WoW and D3?

(Edited to add)
Thank you for the explanation.

I'm surprised that D3 devs made so many choices that went into this game, exactly not the way I would have, and then after launch made things worse instead of better, for so very long. It's as though some of them played a completely different Diablo 2 game than everyone else, or they got something completely different out of it, or they never understood what drove people to play it and enjoy it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:22:21 PM by Xanthippe »
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Reply #296 on: June 13, 2013, 12:20:01 AM

According to VentureBeat no Diablo expansion before 2014.

Can't say I am surprised.

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Reply #297 on: June 13, 2013, 01:24:27 AM

Obviously, they don't announce things less than a year in advance.
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Reply #298 on: June 13, 2013, 03:27:46 AM

or they never understood what drove people to play it and enjoy it.

Who's for 3 ?

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Reply #299 on: June 13, 2013, 07:47:45 AM

It's as though some of them played a completely different Diablo 2 game than everyone else, or they got something completely different out of it, or they never understood what drove people to play it and enjoy it.
Diablo 2 was released a long time ago.  It's entirely possible none of them did play it.  Even less likely they played Diablo 1.  A good many of them probably cut their teeth on WoW.

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Reply #300 on: June 13, 2013, 07:49:59 AM

Which, in itself, would explain a lot.

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Malakili
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Reply #301 on: June 13, 2013, 08:06:11 AM

It's as though some of them played a completely different Diablo 2 game than everyone else, or they got something completely different out of it, or they never understood what drove people to play it and enjoy it.

Well, if they were developing Diablo 3 in the era of Diablo 2 dominated by Battle.net, duping items, pindlebots, then a lot of their decisions make more sense.  But Diablo 2's great achievement was that it managed to have a great "closed" system on battle.net for people who wanted that, but also providing a really great single player and lan experience.  Also, the itemization was much better - although I will add that the itemization in the base game of Diablo 2 was really bad, it wasn't until the expansion that the itemization really became great.
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Reply #302 on: June 13, 2013, 10:36:56 AM

D3 was started at the end of that era, so it probably did influence many of the early design decisions.  But remember how long and how many revamps the project went through.  The final iteration was so long after the start of the project that the gameplay was going to be different in the pursuit of fun while many of the structural designs would be kept.

(We heard all about how items or skills or this other thing were changed.  Not much about how the auction house or online play were revisited, for example.)

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Reply #303 on: June 13, 2013, 11:56:14 AM

While itemization was grounded in D2LoD (and ignored apparently but let's not get off track), AH and online-only were new bullets on the design doc.  At some point the execs wanted to basically make a Diablo-themed WoW Raids game with a RMAH attached so they could get a percentage of the item market they saw in WoW.  Anyone care to refute that one?

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #304 on: June 13, 2013, 12:01:45 PM

The WoW part of what you say makes no sense to me, nothing in Diablo feels especially WoW-like to me except the bosses talking to me, which is annoying but I file under general Metzen story derp. I guess some boss fights have phases? Seems a bit shaky.

The AH was intended to kill the 3rd party grey market, yes, I don't think anyone is under the impression it is anything else. But it wasn't WoW's item market that made dollar signs appear in their eyes, it was the *Diablo* secondary market they were trying to kill/take for themselves. Fortunes were made on that secondary market.

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Malakili
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Reply #305 on: June 13, 2013, 12:21:00 PM

The WoW part of what you say makes no sense to me, nothing in Diablo feels especially WoW-like to me except the bosses talking to me, which is annoying but I file under general Metzen story derp. I guess some boss fights have phases? Seems a bit shaky.

The AH was intended to kill the 3rd party grey market, yes, I don't think anyone is under the impression it is anything else. But it wasn't WoW's item market that made dollar signs appear in their eyes, it was the *Diablo* secondary market they were trying to kill/take for themselves. Fortunes were made on that secondary market.

Yep.  They explicitly said so and I don't see why there is any reason to think they were lying about it.  They saw the same $400 dollar Windforce's and 1000s of dollar full accounts on ebay that I did and wanted a cut.
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Reply #306 on: June 13, 2013, 12:46:01 PM

Yeah I just assumed it was the secondary market for D2 that created the RMAH, not WoW. I mean if you think about when this started, WoW wasn't bigger than their D2 base was it?

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Reply #307 on: June 13, 2013, 01:06:06 PM

Not sure where that idea came from?  Misunderstanding me?  The AH isn't from WoW, it's the secondary market as y'all say.  It is something that was planned from early on though, and not revised significantly with time such as items, stats, or skills.

We know skills went through at least three iterations and probably hundreds of scrapped ideas.

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Reply #308 on: June 13, 2013, 01:14:08 PM

Not sure where that idea came from? 

Yeg's post right after yours.

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Reply #309 on: June 13, 2013, 01:14:45 PM

It was my idea, and I believe what you guys say.  Since I haven't dabbled in the D2 aftermarket, or even thought about it in years, I'd thought it would be smaller than the one for WoW.  Also D3 has too much plot.  But at least I was right about the greedy execs part.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #310 on: June 13, 2013, 01:28:07 PM

I wish it had a "story mode off" option, that just killed cutscenes and anytime the game breaks for things like Chen in the barrel and the follower starter stories.  I'm getting ready to put my WD into Inferno soon and the process of waiting for everyone to get done talking is bad.
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Reply #311 on: June 13, 2013, 01:29:35 PM

I wish it had a "story mode off" option, that just killed cutscenes and anytime the game breaks for things like Chen in the barrel and the follower starter stories.  I'm getting ready to put my WD into Inferno soon and the process of waiting for everyone to get done talking is bad.

If you turned story off, you'd miss out on Metzen having more of his characters corrupted by something. And then how would you feel? Lost, I bet.

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Reply #312 on: June 14, 2013, 03:59:00 AM

I wish it had a "story mode off" option, that just killed cutscenes and anytime the game breaks for things like Chen in the barrel and the follower starter stories.  I'm getting ready to put my WD into Inferno soon and the process of waiting for everyone to get done talking is bad.

Your space bar broken?
Yegolev
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Reply #313 on: June 14, 2013, 08:21:14 AM

I thought it was ESC, but whatever works.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Segoris
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Reply #314 on: June 14, 2013, 10:17:33 AM

Space bar advances the "story" parts while esc skips them
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