Star Trek: Into Darkness

[Megrim]

It makes no narrative sense, it makes no sense in terms of characterization, it doesn't even make much meta-fictional sense--it's not a clever ironic twist or a different line reading or anything.

But it does make sense. Think about what nuSpock's character development has been throughout the past two movies, in terms of the conflict between his Vulcan and Human sides.

[Ratman_tf]

You may not like this movie...

...it was still better than EVERY FUCKING TREK MOVIE BEFORE THE REBOOT.

Wrath of Khan does not hold up, it just doesn't.

You are the reason why Transformers 4 is geting made, and I hate you for it. 

[Ingmar]

You may not like this movie...

...it was still better than EVERY FUCKING TREK MOVIE BEFORE THE REBOOT.

Wrath of Khan does not hold up, it just doesn't.

You are the reason why Transformers 4 is geting made, and I hate you for it. 

What?

[Khaldun]

It makes no narrative sense, it makes no sense in terms of characterization, it doesn't even make much meta-fictional sense--it's not a clever ironic twist or a different line reading or anything.

But it does make sense. Think about what nuSpock's character development has been throughout the past two movies, in terms of the conflict between his Vulcan and Human sides.

So he's yelling about a dude he met an hour ago, that he's already blown the shit out of after getting a spoiler hint from his old self, for doing something that was actually the fault of the guy who's already dead, and that something he did is indirectly kill a guy that Spock has only known for a couple of years but has been told *should* be important to him. If you want a scene where what nuSpock's been through is played reasonably well, the scene in the smuggler ship between him and Uhura is a good scene. The entire first half of the film is heading in a good direction even with the dumb plot holes, in fact.

The whole second half, KHAAAAAAAN most especially, only works as a homage, and as a homage, it shows that the homagers don't understand why the original scene is a meme in the first place. Plus now we have people telling us that they hated the film it's homaging but they really enjoyed seeing a film they hate done again with more lens flare and even less storytelling coherence.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Transformers 1-3 were trash...kinda like star trek 1-8(? I lost track)

Look, I'm not saying into darkness is a great movie, it's a fun popcorn action flick that might shit all over star trek but at least it's well made, transformers were just terrible top to bottom.

Also Khan, watch it again, seriously. Good at the time but does not hold up in any way as a stand alone movie.  ALL the trek movies are stand alone save maybe search for spock and that's the problem, they expect you to go in knowing everyone and knowing fucking 1970's tv plots to make sense of things.  Say what you will about the new one but they do not ask that of the audience.

There is a place for things like old trek movies, extended tv specials.

[Merusk]

Circular argument  is circular.


I really enjoy the part where you bitch about a movie series requiring knowledge of the prior movies,while the one you say is better does the same thing.

[Khaldun]

I'm not even interested in talking about whether Wrath of Khan is a good movie. For me that doesn't enter into it: it's that this one is a bad one. That's it. It's not a matter of comparison: this film is not good.

[Ratman_tf]

Also Khan, watch it again, seriously.

No need. I have watched the mighty fuck out of that movie over the years. What do you want me to 'remember'? (lol trek reference.)

And no, Transfomers and nuTrek are pretty much equal in qualty of storytelling. Star Trek just seems to have managed to avoid being called dumb storytelling with the aforementioned "Trekkies hate fun" meme.

[Megrim]

It makes no narrative sense, it makes no sense in terms of characterization, it doesn't even make much meta-fictional sense--it's not a clever ironic twist or a different line reading or anything.

But it does make sense. Think about what nuSpock's character development has been throughout the past two movies, in terms of the conflict between his Vulcan and Human sides.

So he's yelling about a dude he met an hour ago, that he's already blown the shit out of after getting a spoiler hint from his old self, for doing something that was actually the fault of the guy who's already dead, and that something he did is indirectly kill a guy that Spock has only known for a couple of years but has been told *should* be important to him. If you want a scene where what nuSpock's been through is played reasonably well, the scene in the smuggler ship between him and Uhura is a good scene. The entire first half of the film is heading in a good direction even with the dumb plot holes, in fact.

The whole second half, KHAAAAAAAN most especially, only works as a homage, and as a homage, it shows that the homagers don't understand why the original scene is a meme in the first place. Plus now we have people telling us that they hated the film it's homaging but they really enjoyed seeing a film they hate done again with more lens flare and even less storytelling coherence.

Look, I appreciate that you obviously are very passionate about this, but could you turn off the sperg faucet for the time being and try to actually articulate what you want out of the movie? Understandably, its cool and edgy to hate all that is new and not old, but this is getting 2edgy4me at this point.


nuSpock's KHAAAAN-moment synopsis is as follows. I've put it into bullet points, in rough order of plot progression and relevance, because it's Friday and no-one does any work on Fridays:


 * nuSpock is having issues finding common ground between his Human and Vulcan sides. This is explained in movie 1.
 
 * at the start of movie 2, he is shown as trending towards Vulcan, in filing the report which smokes Kirk's career.
 
 * Kirk is understandably upset (given that he saved nuSpock's life) and tell him that he did it because loves him. No homo.

 * nuSpock is confuse by this, and is thrown back into Human/Vulcan dissaray. This is in large part due to the fact that he hangs around with Kirk, a person whom he obviously considers worthwhile.

 * British people happen.

 * as realisation is beginning to finally dawn on nuSpock that he cannot actually cut himself off entirely from being able to feel (prefaced by him telling Uhura that *exposition*), British people are making things worse.

 * Kirk is killed due to British people shenanigans.

 * nuSpock, realises that he has just lost one of the two people whom he can actually call a friend (Uhura being the other one, in case this isn't obvious) - a thing he has not actually experienced ever, even in Vulcan Juniour High.

 * this also happens to be the person who risked everything to save nuSpock's life earlier because they loved him (no homo).

 * nuSpock, now beginning to understand what the meaning of Fidelity in the human context is, is powerless to do anything about it (including sacrificing himself to save Kirk).

 * he finally flips his shit (succumbing to rage), and beams down to the planet to do the only thing he can do - engage in mano-a-mano fisticuffs, because despite the best plans of Team Goodguys, British people are still causing problems.


Now, as near as I can tell, all of this was spelled out in a fairly obivious fashion by the writer(s). It really is very much a join-the-dots-colour-in-the-giraffe type of exercise. And yet, it would appear, that people are still having trouble joining said dots, and colouring-in said ungulate mammal.

I apologise if I come across as snide, but there really is a point where I have to hold up my hands at the screeches of "WARGLBLARGL" and ask, what?

[Khaldun]

Never mind. You've talked yourself into it being something other than a bad homage. This makes me WARGBLGLELE and you dispassionate. It's ok. I can talk myself into other things in other movies making sense even when they don't. It's a geek skill. Knock yourself out.

[Megrim]

lol

[Samwise]

* Kirk is killed due to British people shenanigans.

I'm unfortunately going to be seeing this movie again this weekend (because friends I haven't seen in too long are getting together to see it), so I'm going to be keeping a close eye out for this.  When it happened in the theater I was wincing too hard to process it.  I'm pretty sure it was Marcus's shenanigans that got Kirk killed, though.

[eldaec]

Judging from his daughter and evilness, you can't rule out Marcus being an undercover British person.

[Ingmar]

The whole second half, KHAAAAAAAN most especially, only works as a homage, and as a homage, it shows that the homagers don't understand why the original scene is a meme in the first place. Plus now we have people telling us that they hated the film it's homaging but they really enjoyed seeing a film they hate done again with more lens flare and even less storytelling coherence.

Who said they hated ST2? Lakov I guess. That's not "people". I like WoK less than I used to, and I think Into Darkness is a better movie, but I don't hate it.

[Teleku]

I somehow managed to make it all the way till just this year without ever seeing anything but the first 10 minutes or so of WoK on TV.  Finally netflixed it earlier this year and thought it was....... meh to ok'ish.  Didn't hate it, and was entertained, but I think the reboot trek was certainly better, and possibly some of the other movies (like 4  ).  Actually, I also rewatched the undiscovered country at the same time, and thought it was better.

It always seems I'm alone in thinking the first Trek movie was one of the best....

[Merusk]

The first trek gets a lot of hate for being a rehashed TOS episode, a plodding storyline (because it was a TV episode stretched to 2 hours, it could have been 90-100 min and been better) the terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE uniforms (Which gave me a chuckle seeing rehashed in this movie) and 70's design aesthetic that were obviously trying to rip-off 2001.

I think there was also some hate for Kirk not being captain and being shown as out of touch/ incompetent in the beginning. You're not wrong that it's one of the better ones as time goes on and I agree with you on Undiscovered.

* Kirk is killed due to British people shenanigans.

I'm unfortunately going to be seeing this movie again this weekend (because friends I haven't seen in too long are getting together to see it), so I'm going to be keeping a close eye out for this.  When it happened in the theater I was wincing too hard to process it.  I'm pretty sure it was Marcus's shenanigans that got Kirk killed, though.

Yes.  His attack is what mis-aligned the somophlange (I forget what they called it) requiring the trip into the core without a radiation suit that totally wouldn't have been on board a ship with an irradiated engine.  What hit the somophlange hard enough to misalign it while also being absent from the shot isn't explained any more than why a 190# man suffering from radiation poisoning is able to kick it in to place. You'd think it would need to be a little more precsise. 

[Numtini]

Wrath of Khan does not hold up, it just doesn't.

I watched it last night. It holds up quite nicely to me.

The whales was always a bit silly and self-referential. Of all the movies, it's the one that's the most like an extended tv episode.  Mostly what I noticed last time I watched it was that what special effects there were horrible, even compared to the earlier films.

[Teleku]

Well Double Dumbass on you!

[Ruvaldt]

It always seems I'm alone in thinking the first Trek movie was one of the best....

You're not alone.  From the pre-Abrams movies, it's my second favorite behind Undiscovered Country.

[K9]

Honestly, if the next film starred Richard E Grant as a Shakespeare-quoting madman trying to bring down the Federation I wouldn't be upset.

[Ingmar]

Well Double Dumbass on you!

 

Undiscovered Country (in my memory anyway) was good too. I'll probably rewatch that soon to see if is as full of flaws I didn't remember as Wrath of Khan.

[HaemishM]

* nuSpock, realises that he has just lost one of the two people whom he can actually call a friend (Uhura being the other one, in case this isn't obvious) - a thing he has not actually experienced ever, even in Vulcan Juniour High.

Except that is HAS happened to him in the first movie by losing his mother and most of his entire fucking race (since he considers himself Vulcan).

Also, for most of the first two movies, Quinto's acting has been SPOT ON. He's been near perfect. The way he spoke the line just felt like he didn't even want to say it. Maybe because he realized how stupid it sounded in the context of nuTrek. I don't know. There was a way to deliver that line better and he failed at it. But moreso, it just felt out of place in the context of the story being told. As did the touching fingers through the glass part of that sequence. It lacked any emotion because 1) anyone who has seen Wrath of Khan sees that and goes "oh, homage!" or 2) the bad performance of Quinto on that line or 3) because compared to the same scene in the Wrath of Khan, these two characters (and actors) don't have decades of experience together growing a friendship or 4) because we all knew that Khan's blood would wake the Tribble and they'd be able to use Khan's blood to save Kirk.

As a result, there was no emotional impact in ANY of that scene, from Kirk's sacrifice on down because the audience knew Kirk wasn't going to stay dead. When Wrath of Khan came out, we were all like "WHAT THE FUCK THEY KILLED SPOCK OH MY GOD!!!!" And we didn't find out until the end credits that maybe Spock wouldn't stay dead.

[eldaec]

Undiscovered country is an example of a decent 'expanded episode' style film.

Its not the greatest movie ever, suffers from the fundamental weakness of tOS acting and characters which didn't start out great and were well past their natural arc. But it doesn't disappear up its own ass like most of the films do.

[Ratman_tf]

As a result, there was no emotional impact in ANY of that scene, from Kirk's sacrifice on down because the audience knew Kirk wasn't going to stay dead. When Wrath of Khan came out, we were all like "WHAT THE FUCK THEY KILLED SPOCK OH MY GOD!!!!" And we didn't find out until the end credits that maybe Spock wouldn't stay dead.

And they had to do a whole movie's worth of stuff to get him back. And we had to wait years to find out.
To young me, it was similar to the cliffhangers at the end of Empire.

[01101010]

Stepping into TOS cast's shoes is really kind of unfair. From a child of a Trekkie, I can say, you just can't replace Shatner, Kelley, or Nimoy. They were their characters. And as good as this current cast is, it just can't capture the same feel for the role mainly because they not only have to play the role, but capture what the original actors brought to the role. They have their moments, but those are flashes rather than a steady stream (though Urban does mimic Kelley playing McCoy much better for longer stretches than the rest of the cast). I tried to go with the new guys, but those roles are pretty iconic and it just feels like that is the missing piece in the reboot and why I can't get comfortable with this movie or the last. Pine just doesn't ooze the misogynist ladies man Shat did, and while he comes close at times, Quinto just doesn't have that stoic, stiff cadence Nimoy brough to the table. 

I keep thinking about what would happen if hey remade Empire and who would play Han, Luke, and Leia? Even if you could capture Han's swashbuckler swagger, could you capture the way Harrison did it? Is it unfair to judge based on that?

[Ratman_tf]

I keep thinking about what would happen if hey remade Empire and who would play Han, Luke, and Leia? Even if you could capture Han's swashbuckler swagger, could you capture the way Harrison did it? Is it unfair to judge based on that?

Well, that's part of the reasoning why they (general they, general moviemaking) should just do new shit and stop rebooting and digging up corpses of TV shows and movie franchises. But it's all about name brands and franchises and reconizability.

Chia Pet The Movie. I'll bet money it's been discussed.

[eldaec]

Stepping into TOS cast's shoes is really kind of unfair. From a child of a Trekkie, I can say, you just can't replace Shatner, Kelley, or Nimoy. They were their characters. And as good as this current cast is, it just can't capture the same feel for the role mainly because they not only have to play the role, but capture what the original actors brought to the role. They have their moments, but those are flashes rather than a steady stream (though Urban does mimic Kelley playing McCoy much better for longer stretches than the rest of the cast). I tried to go with the new guys, but those roles are pretty iconic and it just feels like that is the missing piece in the reboot and why I can't get comfortable with this movie or the last. Pine just doesn't ooze the misogynist ladies man Shat did, and while he comes close at times, Quinto just doesn't have that stoic, stiff cadence Nimoy brough to the table. 

I keep thinking about what would happen if hey remade Empire and who would play Han, Luke, and Leia? Even if you could capture Han's swashbuckler swagger, could you capture the way Harrison did it? Is it unfair to judge based on that?

Personally I prefer the new cast. Quinto's scenes with Nimoy make me embarrassed for Nimoy.

They are all far better actors.

Even Simon Pegg.



Recasting Han Solo would be harder. Luke and Leia, not so much.

[Ratman_tf]

Personally I prefer the new cast. Quinto's scenes with Nimoy make me embarrassed for Nimoy.

Nimoy is 82 and his age is showing. :( He doesn't seem as sharp as some other older actors.

[Trippy]

He was pretty sharp in the Audio commercial.

[Evildrider]

Recasting Han Solo would be harder. Luke and Leia, not so much.

I'm all in for Zachary Levi as Han Solo.

[Ingmar]

That... would be awful. I like him, but he has no edge to him at all.

[Ironwood]

Might be interesting to see him try.  That said, I can't see it working.

[eldaec]

On reflection...

2>11>6>12>1>4>3>>>>5>>>>7=8=9=10

12 was pretty mediocre as an action film and totally lost it as a story at the point Khan's name is revealed.

But really not out of place in the canon.

[Lightstalker]

Yes.  His attack is what mis-aligned the somophlange (I forget what they called it) requiring the trip into the core without a radiation suit that totally wouldn't have been on board a ship with an irradiated engine.  What hit the somophlange hard enough to misalign it while also being absent from the shot isn't explained any more than why a 190# man suffering from radiation poisoning is able to kick it in to place. You'd think it would need to be a little more precsise. 

Kirk was jumping on the wrong side of the thing given the mis-alignment, miraculously it snaps into place ahead of the penultimate stomp.  Of all the magical things in the movie, this was the most jarring for me because it was mundane and needlessly wrong.

Fewer ear worms than the original, so in that respect a much better movie.

[Ratman_tf]

On reflection...

2>11>6>12>1>4>3>>>>5>>>>7=8=9=10

12 was pretty mediocre as an action film and totally lost it as a story at the point Khan's name is revealed.

But really not out of place in the canon.

Oh! Grade the movies! I'm down for that.

#1. Wrath of Khan
#2. The Motion Picture
#3. Search for Spock
#4. Voyage Home
#5. Undiscovered Country
#6. First Contact
#7. Insurrection

#8. Generations
#9 Final Frontier
#10. Nemesis
#11. Star Trek 09

Slots 8-11, man we're beyond bad and into "Do not want", so the spots become rather pointless. They're all weapons grade crap.