Redknights want your advice

[rk47]

So I got involved in another forum's BB League
Being out of the game for some time, I decided to just get my 1340 TV Humans in.
First game went ok. I was grinding out a 1-0 victory against a fresh TV 1000 amazon. Killed 1, Injured 4.
Now, I have 80k. And facing a fresh TV Ork on my next game.

What is the good 'style of play' vs these guys?
Mind you, my Redknights were build around 'bruising' squishy team and I've not had the opportunity to go against hard hitting teams.
People told me to go for passing plays, but looking at those STR 4 B-orc - it does look intimidating.
I've only 1 Catcher, but 2 Thrower. Should I buy another catcher? (I have 80k gold)

[Megrim]

You'll probably want to post your team roster.

[rk47]

Here they are..


Blitzer - Block - Mighty Blow - Fractured Skull
Blitzer - Block - Dodge - Guard
Blitzer - Block - Guard
Blitzer - Block
Ogre -  Bone Head - Mighty Blow - Thick Skull - Throw Team Mate - Loner - Guard

Lineman - Kick
Lineman - Block
Lineman - Block
Lineman
Lineman

Thrower
Thrower

Catcher - Dodge - Catch - Wrestle

[Megrim]

The first thing you'll hear from good players, usually, is that no team should pass. The risks are typically too high, especially because you can run the ball and get the same result, with less dice rolled. Humans shouldn't really bother with passing for tds until you have some developed Throwers anyway.

Since you said that you are looking to play a contact-heavy kind of game, your team is heading in that direction pretty well. If you are going up against a vanilla Ork team, you actually have more Block and more Guard than he will, so you should be fine. Once you have the ball on offense, pick a side of the pitch and attack along that path. Keep your Guard guys near each other, and support them with your other Block pieces. You can afford to take your time and set up two-dice hits on his guys, and work your way up along the side of the pitch. Keep the ball-carrier close behind the main line of the drive, but don't clump guys up too close to him, because your opponent will more likely than not have a Wizard. Just make sure you have someone watching his back, in case your opponent tries to wrap around your line.

If things go your way and you manage to crowd-surf or injure some of his pieces, take your time and score as late as you can. If you don't seem to be making progress, keep the Catcher near the centre of the pitch, so that you can quickly hand the ball off to him, and run cross-field to the other side, should an opening present itself. Worse comes to worse, you only need to get about five or six tiles into his side of the pitch to have a relatively easy run for a td. Just hand the ball off to one of your Blitzers, or the Catcher, and go for it once some space clears up.

On defense, stick the two vanilla Linemen and a Blocker onto the LOS, and hang most of your guys back. Wait for him to commit to a side (vanilla Orks are slow), then close in with your Guard and Block pieces, and lock him into place. Don't look to sack the ball unless he leaves himself particularly open, but do look to put enough pressure onto his cage/screen to make him take risks. If he does something dumb like put all his guys on the LOS with the Thrower at the back, kick the ball off to one of the near corners, and rush it as soon as it hits the deck. If he plays a more sensible offense, kick deep, one of the back corners (about three or four tiles out from either edge), and send maybe one Blitzer to keep him honest. Keep the rest of your pieces Guarded up and wait for him to make mistakes. If he is happy to faff about, wait for him to walk into contact, not the other way around. You want the free hits, and if you happen to have scored first, you have the initiative.

On the team management side of things, save your money for the time being. You have 13 pieces, which is about right for a human team. You will need to replace the AV7 Blitzer, he is a liability, so do that when you can. Also, fire your four Assistant Coaches, that's 40TV you don't need to give away.

[Ingmar]

Catchers are the greatest strength and weakness of human teams, you are going to want 2 of them for long term development, so as long as you have 3 rerolls and your apothecary I'd buy a catcher (and fire a thrower or vanilla lineman), yes.

Megrim's advice is generally all good.

I would add:

- Hitting with your Ogre is risky. It's ok to never move him if you like where he is and his guard is advantageous. Swinging with a loner guy without block is inevitably going to cause turnovers, so you should really only be doing it when you don't need his guard/tackle zones to be up on the opponent's turn and a turnover isn't going to screw you.

- I'm not as down on passing as some players, but it shouldn't be your main strategy as human unless you get some really lucky level ups on your catchers and passers to get at least one half of the pair to agi 4. At that point they're competitive with elves and passing becomes a lot more reliable (but still not as reliable as running.) In general the passing game is there more as an emergency out for humans rather than a main strategy; I like having a thrower built as a ball carrier and using a couple catchers as outs in case of disaster. In any case, the main reason I say you want a second catcher is that despite their strength 2, their speed of 8 makes them very important defensive players. They're probably the best place you can hope for doubles so you can get guard, a speed 8 guy that you can move around to provide assists anywhere is extraordinarily useful. They're also good for marking opposing catchers and the like, especially if you give them tackle at some point down the road (after block or wrestle).

- Assistant coaches and cheerleaders are generally a bad idea. Some people argue that you generally want to have 2 more of them than any given opponent but I don't think the kickoff events that involve them happen often enough or are strong enough to bother with the TV hit.

- Orc-specific advice: target his blitzers. They're the main scoring threat on a vanilla orc team and also his only starting source of useful skills. If you can keep his blitzers tied up, off the field, or down, you are going to be in great shape to win. Conversely getting tied up with his BOBs probably won't be great for you. Even with your 3 guard pieces getting 2 die blocks on them is going to take a lot of careful positioning. If he has a troll, it can potentially pay off to offer him tempting hits against one of your block linemen. A 2 die block from a loner without block against a guy with block is going to generate turnovers in your favor in the long run and is probably worth the injury risk. Especially if he's a weaker player, he'll probably take those attacks and if you're lucky he'll take them early in the turn and then be forced to burn rerolls and possibly lose them to loner.

[Llyse]

Pretty much all solid advice.

The only thing I have to offer is consider firing the Fractured skull Blitzer since you have the gold and it's a major downer. Losing Mighty Blow vs Orcs isn't a big deal neither.

Good luck!

[rk47]

Yeah, I realized the Ogre spent like a minimum of 6 turns being Really Stupid.
But I really need that SPP. And I scored a TD with him on the first game vs Amazons by sheer luck. Dude was 4 tiles away and I sent the Ogre to check him, while a Blitzer gets in to block. Ball carrier down, ball bounces over to AG2 Ogre who succeeded in picking it up.   

Last 4 turns were rolling Really Stupid as he walked....slooooowly towards the other end zone, while my Knights brutalize the 6 ladies on the pitch.

About that Fractured Skull dude... yeah, I made a mistake of him scoring the killing blow on the last turn vs Amazon. He got MVP and a kill. And promoted to level 2. Hence... I threw Might Blow on him just for suicide runs.

[rk47]

Won 2 -1 against Orks.
Was 2-0 up and spent the second half just delaying them to hold the score. They managed to score on turn 16. So yeah. Mission accomplished. Lost a lineman with block for next game, but no perma-injury.
I'm starting to hate fighting bashy team, they're really good at holding the line and caging.

And here's the next problem for Game 3:

My god.

What the fuck is this. I don't even.

I also felt I made a mistake in the last game when they're caging at the center.
I made a bad kick and they get to give it to their thrower.

Then they formed a nice cage in the middle...
I thought I should do this:


Lots of crazy pushes and blocks - I'm not really gaining advantage.


Then it ended with him breaking away with his blitzer as a ball carrier. Two tiles from the TD zone, I made a 1d - Blitz which ends in a push. He peels another blitzer, knock my guy down and scores.

[Megrim]

Yeeea, I, uh... Seeing that Ork 'cage' makes me, hehe, oh boy.

Anyway, good job. Personally, if the Orks are going to do that kind of thing, I would have just sat pretty much just how you already had your guys positioned, and waited for him to make a move. He was two points down, so he would have to walk into your line just to make progress.

Against the Lizards, it doesn't look like he has any skilled Skinks, and only two re-rolls. So basically, again, safety and consistency are the name of the game. Don't overcommit on any blocks and spread yourself thin, because Skinks will run through gaps in your line very easily. He will, more than likely, be very eager to try and base your guys with his Saurii, so make sure you space your front line out so as to not allow him to lock two pieces up with one Saurus. If you can manage to man-mark his Saurii with your generic Linemen, he is effectively losing his 4ST (and a couple of 5s by the looks of it) advantage, unless he is has Break Tackle on all his guys or something.

Keep a second screen behind your main line of defence, but don't overload one side of the pitch. LZ players tend to attack in a zig-zag pattern, so he will likely start at, say, the half-way line, look for some space (which you will block) along the side of the pitch, then cut across diagonally down into your half, and then finally cut across back again if he can't get a td in from there. So make sure you have some staggered tacklezones, so as to make the Skinks roll multiple dodges.

Keep your MB Blitzer (if you still have him) back and blitz a Skink every time you get a chance. Don't let him get you into a scrum, because while you might win out, he will run around you too easily. If you do get pulled in, keep a Guard guy or two free to try and adjust in and help against the higher strength. If you win the toss, I would aim to kick first, and let him burn his two re-rolls trying to pick up the ball, fail dodges, avoid skulls, etc... In attack, you'll need to blitz & creep into position, then once he commits, mark his Saurii in place and manoeuvre around, smashing Skinks along the way.

[Ingmar]

Yeah, against slow bashy teams like that Orc team I am a big fan of the 'stand 1-2 squares away from them and make them move' defense. Every turn they can't advance the ball more than a square or two and can't throw many blocks is working in your favor, especially if you're playing with a lead.

Granted it works better with elves, who can dodge away reliably and set up a new annoying line, but you can use it in a pinch with humans as well.

Megrim's advice is great for the lizards. The skinks are his only real source of scoring and are also very vulnerable if you can get on them, controlling them is the entire key to the matchup. Do not let yourself get tangled up with all those advanced sauri, they're probably all block/guard and will just take you apart if you let them. Tie them up with the ogre and a couple crappy linemen as best you can and focus on skinks.

EDIT: Do you know yet how much you'll have for inducements? They're a huge part of the game when you're playing matches with significant TV differential.

[rk47]

Blitzer hits level 2. What to give him?
I think more Guard would help?

Here's the current roster situation.

Down to 12 players, I don't like it. I need to foul like crazy and hit his skink. Time for another Catcher?

[Ingmar]

It's pretty hard to go wrong picking Guard; there's basically no situation in the game where more guard will do anything but help.

[Llyse]

Blitzer hits level 2. What to give him?
I think more Guard would help?

Here's the current roster situation.

Down to 12 players, I don't like it. I need to foul like crazy and hit his skink. Time for another Catcher?

It's between Tackle for the free skink hits or Guard to help vs Saurus.

I like fouoling but I'm not a fan of using catchers since they're not as cheap as linemanf for fouling, over to you Megrim

[Ingmar]

Yeah if you're going to foul with humans, use a lineman. Fouling is risky, I typically only do it for Very Special Players (hey look, a +str wardancer) or under certain circumstances (turn 7 of a full-half drive, I have a deathroller on the field and I already moved everything else important and there's no key hit for it to make), where I can feel comfortable with the potential TV hit of the guy getting sent off vs. the generally-lower chance of removing the target (and considering its TV, etc.)

[rk47]

TV 1370 vs 1480
110k potential inducement.
Maybe if I drop the Ass. Coaches and dip a bit into petty cash I could get 2 linesmen mercs for sacrificial lambs?

[Ingmar]

Petty cash will unfortunately not stack with the TV difference, it will just up your TV value by the amount you put in, then the game calculates a new difference and gives you that. Yes, this is not intuitive at first. Basically you should only ever spend petty cash if you have the higher TV, and probably not even then unless there's some really specific important thing you need.

[rk47]

awww . :(

In that case taking into account of the 110k inducement
what should i get?
I think I shouldn't recruit anyone and just go for Linesman merc.

[proudft]

If you get a merc he is GUARANTEED to cause 3 casualties, score at least 1 TD, and get MVP, and then you won't have enough money to hire him for reals.  It's the law.

With low inducements (50-100k), I almost always get Bloodweiser Babes.  Even if it's a game where you might not be getting into bashing messes on purpose, people can always get trapped or KO themselves on a dodge or whatever.   Or, god forbid, a Heat Wave game.  +1 or +2 is a big difference in whether or not they come back.

If you have less than 4 rerolls, a reroll for 100k is also a good option.

Note, however, my human team is something like 2-2-8.   

[Ingmar]

Babes don't affect the Heat Wave roll, which is just a special 'roll for everyone that was on the field at the end of a drive, on a 1 they miss the next drive' thing. They automatically come back for the next one after that (and then roll again at the end of that drive if it is still a heat wave, etc.)

That said babes are a solid choice.

[Ruvaldt]

Blitzer hits level 2. What to give him?
I think more Guard would help?

I have managed a very successful human squad with the f13 leagues and I can tell you, my human blitzers get guard at level 2 unless I roll doubles.  Every time.  Humans need a lot of help with strength, and that is pretty much the only way you are going to get it unless you roll doubles on some linemen.

[rk47]

OK, on to TV trimming -
What should I reduce since it's not giving me a worthwhile investment return.

[Megrim]

I wouldn't cut anything at the moment, the gains aren't worth it. You could potentially cut a vanilla Lineman so that you could pick up a Wizard next game, but you may need a bench, depending on how the game goes. With your 100k difference, I'd probably grab an extra Apothecary or an extra re-roll. A Bribe is could also be a ok pick, depending on how much you intend to foul.

Or you could just cut the Assistant Coaches, and gain an extra 40k TV, taking you to 150 and a Wizard.

[Ingmar]

Yeah, on middling AV teams like humans I really don't like flying without a bench. Even if you don't get hurt/KOed players, you can hide players who are important on the bench when you're on defense or offense - for example if you have a guy with kick, having a bench allows you to keep him safely off the field when you're receiving.

Consider the potential long-term scenario when you have 4 catchers, 2 of which are specced for offense and 2 of which are specced as ball hawk/assisters; you'll never want 4 strength 2 guys on the field, so you'll want to have a big enough bench to cover your subs. (Now mind you not every human team wants to go to 4 catchers, but it is one possible build.)

IMO you really don't need to consider TV trimming until you get near the spiraling expenses threshold for your league, you're heading into the playoffs and want to be as efficient as possible because you know you'll be facing a higher average coach skill, or if you have a particular player who is obviously bloated beyond his actual field value. I had a level 4 skeleton on my khemri team (skeletons are their default crappy linemen) with block, tackle, and +1 agility, who was far more expensive than he was useful, for example, so replacing him with a starter guy was a good call.

As a further example of when it is good to trim TV, I fire my deathroller on the dwarf team whenever it hits level 3 without having rolled doubles for block, and I fired it again for the playoffs because it was still level 1 and not that helpful compared to its high cost without some key level-ups. I could keep it through the regular season because those games weren't as generally crucial - I was confident of making the playoffs - but in the playoffs my high TV meant the deathroller was essentially a free wizard for everyone I faced. Without block, it was just too much of a liability to carry a one-drive secret weapon for that much cost against that level of opponent.

You can consider using a similar tactic for firing/replacing your Big Guy (ogre for humans) on any team, because getting doubles for block is so very useful for all of them. (This assumes you have the cash to do it which can be very hard for a while, especially if you have to hire injury replacements.)

[rk47]

2-0 defeat.

 

No, I'm ok really. I didn't have a good game plan going.
Lots of STR 5 Saurus.. he just got another one too after our match was over.

One Thrower will the next game against uhmmm Undead Trannies (That's the team name, yeah they have Mummies)

I gain a fairly decent chunk of SPP too with the farcical catching practice in the final 2 turns .. he charged into my line after I completed 2 passes (lol) I'm not sure why he brought a skink along for the charge, so I  just blitzed the little guy for a nice -1 MA injury and free SPP.  Eventually I got dispossessed, he got a Saurus ready to pick up the ball for TD , only to fail and end the game.

My players got KO'ed and stunned a lot though. This Saurus team is just too strong - I'm pretty sure these guys are probably going to be number 1 in the league eventually with the bullshit rolls they're getting:


The silver lining is that I didn't lose any to injury. And nobody gained a level up despite the sprinkle of SPP so I kept my TV static.
I'm perfectly happy with that. The undead game will be my revival. They haven't played their game yet, so I need to see how it goes first.
And the funniest part is that Fractured Skull Blitzer with Mightly Blow got the MVP again. 2 out of 3 matches. 

[Llyse]

And the funniest part is that Fractured Skull Blitzer with Mightly Blow got the MVP again. 2 out of 3 matches. 

Bad luck on the defeat rk, but that is exactly why I fire injured Blitzers as soon as I can buy an unskilled one...

[Ingmar]

Yep, he's burning up skill points, get rid of him ASAP. I'll sometimes keep guys with niggling injuries around if they're special enough, but -AV is worse by a decent margin.

[rk47]

Yep, he's burning up skill points, get rid of him ASAP. I'll sometimes keep guys with niggling injuries around if they're special enough, but -AV is worse by a decent margin.

  OK.

[rk47]

Yep, he's burning up skill points, get rid of him ASAP. I'll sometimes keep guys with niggling injuries around if they're special enough, but -AV is worse by a decent margin.

Oh wait, amazingly from my previous game with Saurus, nobody leveled up.
No TV change at all.
140k in treasury.

It does put around 4-5 players ready for a lvl up within 1-3 SPP. - Perhaps I might get a DP Linesman or two. And another Mighty Blow or maybe Strip Ball Blitzer. If that Fractured Skull dude gets a level up... I might just give him Piling On so he dies quicker, taking someone with him.



AND SO!
My next game is against Undead.
I don't have his team screenshot yet, coz I'm at work.
But here's what I thought from playing a game with AI Undead..
- Mummies are very good at blocking stuff and doesn't need to roll Really Stupid. But they're slow. Unlike the goddamn Saurus on Steroids buffet I had - this should be easier to tie up with a Block line man. Make him sweat a bit on the rolls.

- I should foul Ghouls to make him less mobile since they have Dodge.

- Wights are probably Human Blitzers mirror match. Only slower by 1 MV - I'm just glad they limit these guys to just 2.

- Their lineman is .. identical to ours, 'cept slower? I'm guessing he's loaded up on Zombies for AV 8.

If I stick to a nice, fouling game with fast catcher for TD - I should come out on top - I hope.

[Ingmar]

Other important reasons to target ghouls are they're AV 7 vs. 9 for the other important guys, they don't have regen, and he can't have an apothecary, so an injury on a ghoul is a guaranteed player out of the game.

[rk47]

Should I grab another Lineman with the 140k spare cash?
I don't like having 12 players only for the eventual ref calls  

Here's the Undead team roster. He hasn't spent his level up.



One of his mummy has block.

EDIT: Just tried Nurgle. Game 1, turn 2, Beast of Nurgle died. HAHAHAHA

*forfeit*

[rk47]

Hmm, next opponent : Chaos 

   Deltas of Salvation   TV 1550 RR 3 APO 1                                          
      MA   ST   AG   AV   Level   SPP   Skill   Skill   Skill   Defaults               
1   Chaos Warrior   5   4   2   9   2   12   Block         Broken Neck               
2   Chaos Warrior   5   4   3   9   3   29   Block   Claw                     
3   Chaos Warrior   5   4   3   9   2   7   Block                        
4   Chaos Warrior   5   4   3   9   2   13   Block                        
5   Beastman   6   3   3   8   1   3            Horns               
6   Beastman   6   3   3   8   1   0            Horns               
7   Beastman   6   3   3   8   2   7   Block         Horns               
8   Beastman   6   3   3   8   4   32   Block   Claw   Tackle   Horns               
9   Beastman   6   3   3   8   2   6   Block         Horns               
10   Beastman   6   3   3   8   2   11   Block         Horns               
11   Beastman   6   3   3   8   2   9   Block         Horns               
12   Minotaur   5   5   2   8   4   38   Claw   J'naut   Tentacles   Thick Skull   M. Blow   Horns   Frenzy   Loner   Wild Animal

This is gonna hurt.
My current roster
   Redknights 47th      TV 1430 RR 3 APO 1                                    
      MA   ST   AG   AV   Level   SPP   Skill   Skill   Skill   Defaults            
1   Ogre   5   5   2   9   2   15   Guard         Bone-head   Might Blow   Thick Skull   Throw Teammate   Loner
2   Blitzer   7   3   3   7   3   18   M.Blow   Piling On      Block   Fractured Skull         
3   Blitzer   7   3   3   8   3   25   Dodge   Guard      Block            
4   Blitzer   7   3   3   8   2   12   Guard         Block            
5   Blitzer   7   3   3   8   2   13   Guard         Block            
6   Lineman   6   3   3   8   1   4                        
7   Lineman   6   3   3   8   2   8            Kick            
8                                             
9   Lineman   6   3   3   8   2   12   Block                     
10   Lineman   6   3   3   7   2   7   Block         Serious Concussion - Miss Next Game            
11   Lineman   6   3   3   8   1   3                        
12   Thrower   6   3   3   8   1   3            Pass   Sure Hands         
13   Catcher   8   2   3   7   3   20   Wrestle   Side Step      Dodge   Catch         
14   Thrower   7   3   3   8   2   7   +1 MA         Pass   Sure Hands         

I always hated the horns bonus... kept forgetting that STR 4 blitz that can turn matches around.
Any advice? Not gonna try to outbash, but I should out dodge?
Inducement at 120k What to spend?

[rk47]

For the first time I contemplated whether to forfeit mid-game.

Turn 4
The Knights knew they were in a fight for their lives when the Ogre Guardian smashed his hand on the fourth round. Knowing that we cannot repel the firepower of that magnitude, we decided to pull back and let them score while our firepower is focused on the Minotaur.
 

 
Our concerted effort brought down the massive beast, and knocked it out of the fight. The Chaos Coach, sensing imminent danger, secured a touchdown to reset the match.
 
Without a strong fire power to hold the line, Lord-Knight XLVII calls for the Dodgers gambit on the Line. Twin catchers will be deployed, to dodge out of the line upon receiving the kick off. Tragedy struck when the Chaos team achieved Perfect Defense and re-positioned their minotaur for maximum effect. Knight's blitz amounted to naught, and the following turn, the Catchers were completely massacred and had to be brought to the injured's box, leaving the Knights without mobile options.
 
Only a miracle stopped a complete rout by the first half's end.
 
The Lord-Knight XLVII considered their options during the break, and came up empty. The Apothecary has spent the last of the supplies, attempting to repair the Ogre's Smashed Hand... A Thrower broke his back, and may have to be retired. Two catchers were badly hurt.
 
As the knights gathered for the last moments of rally. Not a word was spoken. The 47th gazed at each other's eyes and nodded grimly. The slow and silent hum of a familiar tune escapes their lips... the suicide mission. As Ky Kiske finished the all-the-engaging chorus, the rest of the Knights' brotherly knuckles connected. It's time.
 

 
We'll live, or die trying.
 


The Chaos could not further their lead. The match ended. 1-0.

[rk47]

Next matchday is... Goblins.
I'm not confident on this. I played with a few online and they dodge real well and can lay the hurt on you.
Looking at their roster's:
Pogoer - Sure Feet, Sprinter - most definitely the ball carrier who leaps over my line.
Looney - Mighty Blow - hatchet man, must knock him down quickly.
Troll - One with Guard - may be a problem.
Gobbo - Assortment of normals and specials highlights include:
- +STR Gobbo
- 2 Side Stepping Gobbos
- And a Sneaky Git

TV 1460

My roster has an ogre, a blitzer and a thrower missing.

TV 1230
230k Inducement Considerations:
- Wizard scroll? 150k Lightning bolt on critical looney moment should take him out of the match immediately.
- 80k can go towards a merc lineman for additional foul / injury fodder.

I tried fighting stunties online yesterday with a fresh chaos, aiming to bash and see how it goes.
It is really, really difficult without tackle.
I don't have tackle either on Redknights Roster. Am I screwed?

[Megrim]

Blitz the chainsaw, move everyone into contact. Blockblockblock. Avoid/fodder the Trolls. Ezy-pezy.

 + if he doesn't have a ball & chain (LOL), its even easier.

[lamaros]

Not many try to be competitive with goblins, and even those that do can really struggle when the looney goes down.