MLB 2013

[Ingmar]

Wow, surprising to see a deal like that in-division. Sucks to be Peter Bourjos, too, he could have started somewhere else since he's so good defensively it makes up for his crappy bat, but I can't see them trading him now so he's stuck as a 4th outfielder.

[WayAbvPar]

I think Trumbo will DH and Bourjos will play in the field, no?

[Fordel]

It probably doesn't hurt that Hockey is a no show this year, in regards to the Jays and all their buying players. Jays haven't been relevant in the city for a long long time.

[Ingmar]

I think Trumbo will DH and Bourjos will play in the field, no?

That would probably be the smart move, but I suspect Vernon Wells is going to get a lot of those DH at-bats because insanity.

[WayAbvPar]

I just can't believe it was someone other than the Mariners who gave Wells his contract. Holy shit has he fallen off a cliff, Chone Figgins style.

[ghost]

Oh Andruw, Andruw, Andruw........


 

[Paelos]

First Chipper gets divorced again, and now this.

Smoltzy better not do anything stupid.

[ghost]

Looks like the HOF voters got some cajones.  Good on them. 

[Ingmar]

They're a pack of fucking morons, more like.

[ghost]

Well, there's that too, but this year they got it right.  I imagine next year you'll see Glavine and Maddux get in on first ballot. 

[Ingmar]

They didn't get shit right. Even setting aside the steroid nonsense, there are several players on this year's ballot, who were never, ever linked to performance enhancing drugs who should have been elected. The only thing they did right this year was not elect Jack Morris, because he wasn't good enough.

[ghost]

Who should they have elected?  

Bagwell is the only one that makes sense to me, but maybe I'm not seeing something.  And I'm not even sure he belongs really.

[Ingmar]

Tim Raines for one. He should have been in years ago. Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza - all first-ballot worthy, Bagwell should have been elected last year. Edgar Martinez.

[WayAbvPar]

Tim Raines for one. He should have been in years ago. Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza - all first-ballot worthy, Bagwell should have been elected last year. Edgar Martinez.

Agreed on all, but especially Edgar. The man could just fucking RAKE. Not his fault the Mariners were too retarded to play him regularly until he was fucking 27

[Paelos]

Biggio. That's a funny one.

No. He played a long time, but he was a shitty fielder in the last 10 years of his career, and he hit .280 lifetime as a second baseman.

[ghost]

I don't think any of those guys deserve it, personally.  I like the fact that it's difficult to get inducted and with the longer seasons and new, ahem, equipment, it's easier to compile better stats.

As a tangent, think about the days when Don Mattingly was a sure fire HOFer.  From 1984 to about 1989 he was a complete badass.  

[Ingmar]

He's one of the greatest 2nd basemen ever, full stop. Sure, he played a long time so his totals are high, but he's not some Omar Vizquel compiler type. He also had a long, extremely valuable peak. 4+ WAR in every year from age 25 to 35 minus one where he got hurt and only played 100 games. You put that together with the long career, the fact that his numbers are severely depressed from playing in the Astrodome for ever, and he should be an absolute lock.

Mattingly was never a 'sure' HOFer.

[ghost]

Sure he was, when he was fresh off an MVP and batting .325-340 every year.  To say otherwise is not remembering the media coverage at the time. 

[Ingmar]

That kind of thing is always "if he manages to keep it up" qualified by anyone with any sense. In any case I'm not sure I understand the relevance of a guy looking like he might make it mid-career to evaluating someone where we have their whole career right there on the page in front of us anyway.

[Paelos]

He's one of the greatest 2nd basemen ever, full stop.

Obviously not. He'd be in right now. He'll probably get in at some point, but I disagree he's one of the best of all time. He did have a great peak in the 90s but he played for so many years after that as a stat compiler. Hornsby, Robinson, Sanberg, Carew, Collins, Alomar, etc come to mind as the greats. I hate Joe Morgan but he's in there.

[Ingmar]

The only ones on that list I'd put ahead of Biggio are Hornsby, Morgan, and maybe Alomar. I think in general people are really substantially underestimating the effect that the Astrodome had on his (and Bagwell's) numbers.

I'm DQing Rod Carew because he played over half his games at first base.

[Paelos]

I'd almost put Kent ahead of Biggio.

Almost.

[Ingmar]

Kent should probably get in as well, but he wasn't in Biggio's class defensively even at his best. Assuming the writers straighten out their derp about this era in general, he will be one of those guys who takes forever to get in probably. If they don't, he gets caught up in the wailing about how everyone was cheating (in the one kind of cheating that we apparently care about, never mind greenies and spitballs) and gets left out.

[Paelos]

Yeah the glove on Kent was the reason for the almost.

[HaemishM]

Biggio certainly deserves it. No one seems to remember he came up as a catcher and switched to 2nd base and played better there than as a catcher. Or that he played in the shittastic Astrodome on fucking turf as hard as nails for years, like Ingmar said. He also played on a lot of shitty teams.

Jeff Kent had a few explosive years and was a late bloomer. I don't think he deserves it, but especially not before Biggio.

[ghost]

Just because someone switches positions doesn't automatically make them that much better than someone else. 

[Ingmar]

Just because someone switches positions doesn't automatically make them that much better than someone else. 

The reason the 4 years of playing catcher are relevant is because production from catcher is relatively more valuable than production from just about any other position. It makes his case stronger because it means he was a more valuable/useful player.

[ghost]

Nah.  If Dale Murphy can't make it, Biggio can't.   

[Paelos]

Poor Dale. He carried those Braves teams.

[ghost]

Two time MVP, no less.

What a roster for the 1983 Braves- 

Bruce Benedict
Chris Chambliss
Glenn Hubbard
Rafael Ramirez
Bob Horner
Brett Butler
Claudell Washington

The pitching left a little to be desired.....

[Ingmar]

Murphy was very good, borderline HOF case, not in Biggio's class at all.

[ghost]

How many MVP's does Biggio have?   

[Paelos]

Biggio has problems with the turf, or something.

Which apparently wasn't bad enough to keep him from playing his entire career with the Stros, or making $9M a year when he was washed up. Or taking a paltry deal to play until he was in his 40s.

[Ginaz]

Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza and Raines are all worthy of being inducted, imo.  I don't understand Biggio not getting in, Bagwell and Piazza were probably left out due suspicions of steroid use and Raines because while he was a great base stealer, his other offensive numbers weren't high enough.  And I have no idea how Jack Morris got so many votes.  Edgar Martinez was primarily a DH and thats what hurts him here.  Also:

Others receiving votes: Bernie Williams, 19; Kenny Lofton, 18; Sandy Alomar Jr., 16; Julio Franco, 6; David Wells, 5; Steve Finley, 4; Shawn Green, 2; Aaron Sele, 1.

Edit: I have to say I admire the Baseball Hall of Fame more than other sports halls of fame BECAUSE its so hard to get it.  Just being above average isn't good enough.  I'm looking at you, Hockey Hall of Fame.  Bernie Federko?  Bernie Federko?  Really?

[Ingmar]

How many MVP's does Biggio have?    

A better question might be how many does Murphy deserve, which by my reading is 1. Schmidt or Carter would have been better MVP picks in '82. Biggio was also just as good as Larry Walker in '97, but Walker had his Coors Field .720 slugging year that year and the raw numbers turned everyone's head.

EDIT: Haha, Aaron Sele, that is awesome.