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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 186365 times)
Paelos
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Reply #280 on: January 16, 2013, 01:33:08 PM

My idea for that accomplishment thing without worrying about ruining people's accomplishments would be to make raiding achievements tiered instead of the raids themselves.

Example, complete a raid before the first pass of patches? Gold Achievement for the raid. Three months after it's released? Silver achievement. Complete it before the end of an expansion? Bronze achievement. Overlevel it two years later? Regular achievement.

Tie those gold, silver, whatever ratings to a higher level of achievement points and vanity crap.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Soulflame
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Reply #281 on: January 16, 2013, 03:22:20 PM

I think there needs to be more ranting about the tiered raiding, because that alone kills any interest I have in coming back.
Lt.Dan
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Reply #282 on: January 16, 2013, 06:22:34 PM

Here's the thing I don't understand from GC's tweets and defense of gating content behind dailies.  He says all you need to do is complete Dread Wastes and you're ready for heroics and then it's a short jump to LFR.  My experience was more painful than that. 

To run the first tier LFR you need ilvl 460 and finish Dreadwastes at say ilvl 440 (it's less but let's pretend) in each slot (would be lower for some but let's pretend).  With 16 slots you need 320 more ilvls of which you get 23 per heroic 5 man upgrade, 36 per PvP item, 49 per valor point upgrade, and 18 per justice point upgrade.  You could put crafted items with the valor items too if you have a lazy 20-30k gold lying around.

Realistically you're going to have 2 valor pieces from honored with Klaxxi (1250 vp) and Golden Lotus (1750 vp).  After 5.1 you could probably also add another from the invasion dailies (another 1750 vp).  Assuming just the two valor items we're up to 98 ilvls.

Now let's say you get 8 upgrades from heroics (184 ilvls) and a couple of PvP items (hope you're not a tank - 72 ilvls) - ta da you're there.

So really the "short jump" to LFR is really determined by getting 3000 vp. You get to honored with Klaxxi from Dreadwaste quests and Golden Lotus to honored takes about a week (might be longer).  Say 15 dailies (75vp), a heroic a day (80vp), pls a scenrio (40 vp).  Call it 200vp per day and you're looking at 15 days to qualify for Mogu'shan Vaults.

Geting to ilvl 470 for the next tier is a whole other ball of wax and really depends on you're luck with loot in LFR.  Personally I've had 36 boss kills, 9 bonus loot rolls for 3 drops but only 2 unique drops.  I've ground out Revered with Golden Lotus and am still short (ivll 467)but will be close once I get to Honored with Shado Pan.

And that's my frustratration with MoP.
Setanta
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Reply #283 on: January 16, 2013, 06:34:22 PM

Nice summary, not that GC would admit that any of it is true.

For me it's simpler:

Any gating makes the game no fun. It wasn't fun in Vanilla (Horde Ony quest line etc) or TBC (keys anyone?) and it certainly isn't fun now. I did it all, but I didn't enjoy it.

Fun is not what these retards think it is.

That is all.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Paelos
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Reply #284 on: January 16, 2013, 07:47:39 PM

The daily gating is just another form of attunements, I agree.

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SurfD
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Reply #285 on: January 16, 2013, 11:38:41 PM

Here's the thing I don't understand from GC's tweets and defense of gating content behind dailies.  He says all you need to do is complete Dread Wastes and you're ready for heroics and then it's a short jump to LFR.  My experience was more painful than that. 

To run the first tier LFR you need ilvl 460 and finish Dreadwastes at say ilvl 440 (it's less but let's pretend) in each slot (would be lower for some but let's pretend).  With 16 slots you need 320 more ilvls of which you get 23 per heroic 5 man upgrade, 36 per PvP item, 49 per valor point upgrade, and 18 per justice point upgrade.  You could put crafted items with the valor items too if you have a lazy 20-30k gold lying around.

Realistically you're going to have 2 valor pieces from honored with Klaxxi (1250 vp) and Golden Lotus (1750 vp).  After 5.1 you could probably also add another from the invasion dailies (another 1750 vp).  Assuming just the two valor items we're up to 98 ilvls.

Now let's say you get 8 upgrades from heroics (184 ilvls) and a couple of PvP items (hope you're not a tank - 72 ilvls) - ta da you're there.

So really the "short jump" to LFR is really determined by getting 3000 vp. You get to honored with Klaxxi from Dreadwaste quests and Golden Lotus to honored takes about a week (might be longer).  Say 15 dailies (75vp), a heroic a day (80vp), pls a scenrio (40 vp).  Call it 200vp per day and you're looking at 15 days to qualify for Mogu'shan Vaults.

Geting to ilvl 470 for the next tier is a whole other ball of wax and really depends on you're luck with loot in LFR.  Personally I've had 36 boss kills, 9 bonus loot rolls for 3 drops but only 2 unique drops.  I've ground out Revered with Golden Lotus and am still short (ivll 467)but will be close once I get to Honored with Shado Pan.

And that's my frustratration with MoP.
Dont forget that you get a free pair of 476 boots simply for killing the Sha of Anger at least once (and when faction wide World Boss tapping goes in, doing that will be even easier).  Getting into the second LFR raid tier can also be made MUCH easier if you get lucky in your first week or two of sha kills.  I got lucky on my paladin alt and got tier gloves on my first kill, which at 496 is a very nice Ilevel bump.

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SurfD
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Reply #286 on: January 16, 2013, 11:42:37 PM

Maybe Ghostcrawler will get to bring his awesome vision to the next expansion and literally require a specific item level to enter it so you have to grind MoP factions. I mean, we wouldn't want everyone's "accomplishments" (his words) to be "invalidated" (also his words) would we?
I think there is a fairly signifigant differece between an Expantion based gear / accomplisment "reset" and a mid expantion raid tier reset.   I mean, nothing says "hey, thanks for all that hard work you put in killing those difficult raid bosses" like adding 3 new facerollable 5 mans that drop loot of the same Ilevel just so the newbies can play catchup and get into the new upcoming raid tier.  Sure, there is probably a decent middle ground, but where that is, I dont know.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Ironwood
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Reply #287 on: January 17, 2013, 01:55:05 AM


The gating wasn't a bad idea. The reputation that served as the gate was the problem. Triple the reputation gains from Golden Lotus, retire the first hub when you hit honored (or was it revered?) so that you never have more than 10 quests to do for one faction and you aren't doing the same quests for quite as long, and avoid making the mistake again in the future.


Yeah, it was.  Gating items is similarly retarded.  You just don't get what's turning people off ?

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Reply #288 on: January 17, 2013, 05:03:33 AM

Maybe Ghostcrawler will get to bring his awesome vision to the next expansion and literally require a specific item level to enter it so you have to grind MoP factions. I mean, we wouldn't want everyone's "accomplishments" (his words) to be "invalidated" (also his words) would we?
I think there is a fairly signifigant differece between an Expantion based gear / accomplisment "reset" and a mid expantion raid tier reset.   I mean, nothing says "hey, thanks for all that hard work you put in killing those difficult raid bosses" like adding 3 new facerollable 5 mans that drop loot of the same Ilevel just so the newbies can play catchup and get into the new upcoming raid tier.  Sure, there is probably a decent middle ground, but where that is, I dont know.
I loved Ulduar and my guild wasn't done with the hardmodes we wanted to do when Trial of the Crusader dropped. We went right on to ToTC and were perfectly fine with the fact the new tier was a super-easy loot fountain that "invalidated" all that swank gear we struggled to get. We just didn't like Trial of the Crusader because it was a boring and unimaginative raid after you completed it a couple of times, particularly after seeing all the pretty awesome art/design in Ulduar. So we got geared up, then geared up our alts in record time, then we fucked around doing Ulduar/Naxx achievements (facerolling the place in 10m with the 25m ToTC gear) and doing the tourney dailies.

The catch up never fucking entered our minds. We were never mad that people could get gear that was mostly as good/better then the stuff we got out of Ulduar in a 5-man that took all of 15 minutes to do.

Because we're not assholes.*

*well not complete ones.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Merusk
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Reply #289 on: January 17, 2013, 05:12:47 AM

Dont forget that you get a free pair of 476 boots simply for killing the Sha of Anger at least once (and when faction wide World Boss tapping goes in, doing that will be even easier).  Getting into the second LFR raid tier can also be made MUCH easier if you get lucky in your first week or two of sha kills.  I got lucky on my paladin alt and got tier gloves on my first kill, which at 496 is a very nice Ilevel bump.

This is part of the problem. Blizzard has all the data, which means they're looking at the over-arching numbers.  Yes, on average it only takes x number of weeks to gear-up and progress and 50% or more will be on that schedule.

That completely ignores the hundreds of thousands of players on the back end of the curve.  These players USED to be able to gear-up via valor points when the next tier dropped and progress.   That will not happen now and it WILL make people quit because fuck being told you can't do the new shiny because you had shitty luck.

In other words: It's not malice, it's sheer incompetence and lack of understanding of your mechanics as a whole.  It's design by spreadsheet instead of design by experience and understanding.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:14:23 AM by Merusk »

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Ironwood
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Reply #290 on: January 17, 2013, 06:15:15 AM

Seems to me that even when they try to add their own experience in, it's the experience of 'Well, I liked getting hit in the nuts'.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #291 on: January 17, 2013, 06:52:47 AM

Yeah I meant holistic play experience rather than anecdotal experience.  Word fumble.  You can't design by spreadsheet, say "Well those folks at the back end who take 10-12 weeks just get fucked on progression" and expect to have a good game.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Draegan
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Reply #292 on: January 17, 2013, 07:37:56 AM

Gating content is a perfectly fine mechanic, it's just what unlocks the gate fun/notfun.  For example, having to grind a shitton of daily quests every day for a week or more just to raise a reputation to the point where it unlocks two more similar reputation grinds is awful, and retarded.  That's a fun factor of 1, or -10 whatever.

If the dailies become something entertaining that doesn't involve shit like kill quests or collection quests then the fun factor hits like 3 or 4 on a scale of 10.  Maybe.

However, I would mind gating factions or vendors or gear behind achievement scores.  Say there was an achievement for killing bears in a certain time.  Killing 10 bears in 30 seconds is a gold star, and killing 10 in 60 seconds is a bronze.  If you have a gold star, then you're done and the gate is unlocked.  Maybe it's a timed dungeon run, maybe it's a jumping puzzle, maybe it's something else.  Who cares.

The point is, you can avoid grinding for weeks on end doing the same shit over and over if you're good enough to do it in the first go.  The "good enough" can be any level of difficulty. 

I prefer playing the game and accomplishing things rather than mindless kill quests or collection quests. WOW has terrible "video game play" as it is (hotbar combat is incredibly non-engaging), make the game fun to play outside of killing an npc over and over.
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Reply #293 on: January 17, 2013, 08:38:32 AM

The last time I dealt with any sort of gating was the attunements for Karazahn.  That was just fine because the act of getting attuned was actually kindof fun.  When it wasn't fun was when you had to beg, plead or steal to be able to get a group together to get attuned. 
Paelos
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Reply #294 on: January 17, 2013, 08:44:10 AM

Gating attunements are "okay" when it's a solo quest objective. If you start tossing in group components, it falls over on its face. If used correctly, a gating attunement that was a solo objective could be used as a story telling device. It could add into the content instead of just making it generic-bug-raid-4.

That being said, once you do an attunement, they have the ability to attune your account to that raid, on all characters. Making alts do any kind of gating content after it's been completed by another character is absolutely not acceptable.

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Ingmar
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Reply #295 on: January 17, 2013, 11:39:10 AM

Attunements would only be acceptable to me at this point if they were account-wide.

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Soulflame
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Reply #296 on: January 17, 2013, 12:13:46 PM

You needed groups to get the key for Kara.  Shadow Labs in particular needed a solid group to get through.
Merusk
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Reply #297 on: January 17, 2013, 12:16:10 PM

So. Many. Shadow Labs. Deaths.

One poorly-timed assassin.. plotz.   One fucked pull in the skeleton room.. plotz.  Slow dps on Murmor... plotz.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Simond
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Reply #298 on: January 17, 2013, 12:38:22 PM

Labyrinth has no 's' in it.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Rokal
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Reply #299 on: January 17, 2013, 12:47:16 PM

Yeah, it was.  Gating items is similarly retarded.  You just don't get what's turning people off ?

I already explained my reasoning. What turned people off was not the gating, it was the gate (shitty long daily grind). If you want me to give you an answer you're going to have to give me a more substantial response than "no, gating is retarded".

On the subject of attunements, most the group components wouldn't have been a problem with the LFD replacing trade chat and scenarios replacing group quests. I wouldn't be surprised to see small attunement chains come back in the next expansion.

We are already essentially seeing attunements in the 5.0 raids since you have to do MSV before HoF, HoF before ToES, etc. Nobody really cares that there are attunements for these raids, even ones that aren't account-wide, because the process of getting attuned is not obnoxious and is something you'd have been doing anyway.
Ingmar
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Reply #300 on: January 17, 2013, 12:51:59 PM

You're doing the "you don't actually know what bothered you, you think it was X, but really it was Y" thing. You probably don't want to do that; if people here say they hated the gating, best to take their word for it.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Fordel
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Reply #301 on: January 17, 2013, 12:52:54 PM

You liked auto assault though, what is your opinion worth!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Rokal
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Reply #302 on: January 17, 2013, 01:26:09 PM

You're doing the "you don't actually know what bothered you, you think it was X, but really it was Y" thing. You probably don't want to do that; if people here say they hated the gating, best to take their word for it.

I've heard people here suggest that removing the reputation gate for August Celestials/Shadopan or the VP cap would help fix the most common complaint with MoP which was "you're asking me to do too much stuff that isn't fun". People don't seriously believe giving people more un-fun stuff to do in a given week/day would have improved the game, do they? I'm trying to avoid saying "what you actually disliked was X", but it's pretty clear that people are trying to fix the wrong parts of the problem.

If you think gating is inherently bad and that removing the gate on Golden Lotus would have improved the problem, rather than making it worse like I suggested, then explain your argument.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #303 on: January 17, 2013, 01:36:14 PM

No he has a point and I think a lot of people agree.

Gating content isn't inherently evil, hell in single player games content is "gated" through the story.  Gating doesn't need to be unfun and there's lots of ways to do it without repetitive grinding dailies, even group based attunements wouldn't be bad if getting the group was easy and painless.

Unfortunately, wow has not found a fun way to do it.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Paelos
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Reply #304 on: January 17, 2013, 01:58:17 PM

Gating is only called gating when it's not fun. When it's fun it's called progression or flow.

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Azazel
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Reply #305 on: January 17, 2013, 04:48:51 PM

Well, I for one missed what the attractive things to do at 90 are.  Because apart from dungeons and raids, I see makework.  A lot of fucking makework.

Also, the dungeons and raids ain't up to much either.  The scenarios are also woeful.  The item grind ruins all 3.

You tell me what I'm missing, because I think I'm missing the fun.  I used to have fun.  I'm not having fun.  Repeating the same random collection of 20 quests spread over a 5 quest dollop every day ain't fucking fun, no matter what the FUCK Ghostcrawler says.

I do hate dailies.  I can't see how anyone DOESN'T.  He wants us to continue beating our testicles and enjoying it and, frankly, I don't want to.  Because the first hit hurt and after that it just seemed stupid.

So what am I missing ?

/thread

Scenarios should have, could have been a lot better.
The dungeons are just not interesting. I hate to say it, but Cata's ones were more engaging, and let's not even talk about wotlk.


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #306 on: January 17, 2013, 05:07:40 PM

Scenario's were utterly fucking disappointing.

It's not Risk V reward, it's TIME vs reward.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Azazel
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Reply #307 on: January 17, 2013, 05:31:45 PM

Rokal, it wasn't just pacing. It was the fact that those factions didn't cockblock useful gear. As such, they could set the rates at whatever, and it wasn't relevent to  their retention. That made them actually optional to the players, not fake optional like WELL YOU CAN RAID YOUR BALLS OFF INSTEAD LULZ!

This doesn't matter as much as whether the content feels like a grind. The 5.1 faction currently provides the best VP gear in the game. I haven't seen complaints about it because it moves fast and it has frequent story progress which makes it feel less repetitive. That's it.

Rokal is right, here. At least in part. The fishing faction doesn't cockblock useful gear but is a slow, painful, long, boring grind.

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Pennilenko
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Reply #308 on: January 17, 2013, 05:43:04 PM

Scenario's were utterly fucking disappointing.

It's not Risk V reward, it's TIME vs reward.

I'm not attacking you just adding to your thought process. The idea of risk at all in a video game is fucking stupid. Fucking neck beard virtual achievers need to quit fucking the fun out of our pixels with that whole risk versus reward bullshit. Give me my treats as my reward for spending time in your shitty virtual world.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Azazel
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Reply #309 on: January 17, 2013, 07:02:28 PM

If you don't like dailies and you don't like raiding then why are you worried about rep gear?

Because in the past, people had options to extend their character slowly through just doing dungeons with friends. They would get gear and points, and use those points on vendors. Nobody had to do raid, nobody had to do dailies. Things were just fine.

this

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Setanta
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Reply #310 on: January 17, 2013, 10:08:04 PM

Give me my treats as my reward for PAYING to spend time in your shitty virtual world.

Fixed

Ironwood's post nailed it. The fact that I look back to WotLK dungeons as being great fun (even repeated) and Cataclysm (!!!!) dungeons as being ok/interesting, makes me wonder who the fuck designed the MoP ones. They are shit or rehashes.

But apparently end-game is raiding.

It's like Blizzard took all the good things from previous expansions and made a conscious effort to trash every single one in an attempt to improve the game - kind of like how D3 is apparently a better game than D2.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Ironwood
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Reply #311 on: January 18, 2013, 01:54:00 AM

Yeah.  They still don't understand why some D2 die hards (like me) didn't like D3 and now play Torchlight.

Just like they probably don't understand why a WoW Addict like me is now playing SWtor and looking to download Secret World for a poke about.

They also have little idea on why someone like me is really, really, really swithering on buying the Zerg expansion even though it's a wet dream of mine.

And it really, really didn't and doesn't have to be that way.  I just have to accept the fact that this company is not the games company I used to support.  And it's time to move on.

But I CANNOT get me wife to do so.



"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Simond
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Reply #312 on: January 18, 2013, 08:30:35 AM

I cannot wait for three months into the next expansion when the exact same burned-out vets are shitting all over the new content while claiming MoP was much more fun and the dungeons were so great and why isn't there as much stuff to do any more and so on.  awesome, for real

And I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how running dungeons with friends for gear/JP has somehow become impossible.

Ironwood's post nailed it. The fact that I look back to WotLK dungeons as being great fun (even repeated) and Cataclysm (!!!!) dungeons as being ok/interesting, makes me wonder who the fuck designed the MoP ones. They are shit or rehashes.

But apparently end-game is raiding.

It's like Blizzard took all the good things from previous expansions and made a conscious effort to trash every single one in an attempt to improve the game - kind of like how D3 is apparently a better game than D2.
So you prefer Cataclysm heroics and overall gameplay design to MoP? May I suggest you give Vanguard or EQMac a try, as your taste in MMOs clearly tends towards the masochistic?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
tazelbain
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Reply #313 on: January 18, 2013, 08:36:25 AM

It is funny to listen to rats try to negotiate with experimenters about the composition and schedule of the pelts in the Skinner box.

"Me am play gods"
Paelos
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Reply #314 on: January 18, 2013, 08:37:08 AM

And I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how running dungeons with friends for gear/JP has somehow become impossible.

For one thing JP is generally useless. They messed up the points this time around. For another thing, the VP rewards are behind factions. Which are behind dailies in GL, which are then behind more dailies for Shadopan and August.

Does that help? Or do you need more? What people want is the way things were in Wrath. You run the dungeon. You get VP. You spend VP at the vendor in the capital city. Huzzah.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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