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Author Topic: Obsidian's "Pillars of Eternity"  (Read 206079 times)
Tebonas
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Reply #700 on: April 14, 2015, 03:22:28 AM

I've turned down the combat difficulty to Easy, not because its too hard otherwise, but because its too annyoing. Especially the atrocious pathing and targetting, when your secondary tank decides to walk around instead of enganging enemies while said enemies have no pathing problems and joyfully slaughter the wizard.

Now the game is enjoyable for me. Maybe in the next game they fix the combat bugs and this will be an all around winner. I'm not regretting the money I spent, though. I hope they improve on what they have in the expansions.
lamaros
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Reply #701 on: April 14, 2015, 06:04:24 AM

I've loaded up my GOG BG2. Not looking back, so much more fun imo than POE. Still highly playable even w/o EE.
lamaros
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Reply #702 on: April 16, 2015, 12:56:08 AM

I forgot how good the BG games were.

They're both better than PoE. BG1 probs wasn't better on release though, maybe.

They just have just tried to remake it exactly, design wise they've improved on basically nothing apart from some ease of use elements.
Falconeer
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Reply #703 on: April 16, 2015, 02:23:45 AM

It would be cute to find out what was the budget for Baldur's Gate 2. And compare it with the 4M budget raised for Pillars of Eternity.

lamaros
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Reply #704 on: April 16, 2015, 07:14:24 AM

It would be cute to find out what was the budget for Baldur's Gate 2. And compare it with the 4M budget raised for Pillars of Eternity.

Design is different to scope, no? A lot of the decisions made in PoE that aren't as good as those in BG2 have nothing to do with having the money to do them.
Falconeer
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Reply #705 on: April 16, 2015, 07:29:53 AM

That would be even more interesting to question. To find out if the new developers simply disagree that their decisions are not as good as BG2's, or they'd blame it on budget constraints.

lamaros
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Reply #706 on: April 16, 2015, 08:40:33 AM

Well supposedly they thought chapter 2 in BG2 was a design mistake, rather than the greatest RPG chapter of the lot, so yeah, not sure it's budget constraints.
Zane0
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Reply #707 on: April 16, 2015, 04:43:37 PM

I guess a lot of rpg fans and developers are theoretically in love with reactivity these days (branching paths). But a lot of 'classics' (probably w/ only the exception of fallout) have very little reactivity to them at all. bg2 is a case in point where there are almost no choices to be made beyond your choice of character/companions--which impact combat and various secondary narratives but not the overarching structure very much. But bg2 nonetheless continues to seem enormous & expansive by sheer virtue of the amount and variety of content, much of which is completely linear but (crucially) you access within a large non-linear cityscape.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 02:43:15 PM by Zane0 »
Tannhauser
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Reply #708 on: April 16, 2015, 06:49:33 PM

Personally, I couldn't go past Nashkell in BG1: EE.  Game looked like ass and I was replaying a game I had already played at least twice before. Also, it was a pain in the neck to jump through hoops to keep my evil party members.

BG series had their time in the sun now it's PoE for me.  Game looks great, combat is fun, great quests and maps and more features than either BG.  It gives me that old school feel with a new world to explore and a new rule set that interests me.

Sophismata
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Reply #709 on: April 16, 2015, 06:51:57 PM

Well supposedly they thought chapter 2 in BG2 was a design mistake, rather than the greatest RPG chapter of the lot, so yeah, not sure it's budget constraints.
Chapter 2 was easily the greatest part of BG2.

I guess a lot of rpg fans and developers are theoretically in love with reactivity these days (branching paths). But a lot of 'classics' (probably w/ only the exception of fallout) have very little reactivity to them at all. bg2 is a case in point where there are almost no choices to be made beyond your choice of character/companions--which impact combat and various secondary narratives but not the overarching structure very much--but that nonetheless continues to seem enormous & expansive by sheer virtue of the amount and variety of content -- much of which is completely linear but (crucially) you access within a large non-linear cityscape.
I think something else to add is how you can get in way over your head and take on challengers far above your level. And when you succeed you can keep the rewards. It really added to the feeling of freedom.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:54:16 PM by Sophismata »

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
Malakili
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Reply #710 on: April 16, 2015, 07:18:40 PM

Also, and I don't know if this is just how I remember it or if it really was this way, by comparison to modern RPGs I feel like I got less feedback every step of the way back in those RPGs.  Things feel a lot more linear when every 5-10 minutes real time you get an update in your quest log.  I was actually just noticing the same thing today when I was playing my Diablo 3 seasonal character in story mode and comparing it to Diablo 2.  Diablo 2 was pretty damn linear, but it felt a lot less so because you only got a few quests and they didn't update much. In Diablo 3 I feel less inclined to do what side dungeons their are because I am always feeling like "objective is just up ahead."  Granted, in an APRG the pacing being a little more driving is tolerable.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 07:30:17 PM by Malakili »
lamaros
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Reply #711 on: April 16, 2015, 09:55:34 PM

There are two great things about BG2, character development and chapter 2. PoE doesn't have either.

PoE was a whole lot of fun, but I have no desire to replay it. I have more fun just rolling character dice in BG.

The game system that Obsidian have is pretty good though, apart from sneak. Modding the stat system and just changing the design idea behind loot and quests could easily make a spectacular game.

But it doesn't have the memorable elements of a classic as yet.
90Proof
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Reply #712 on: June 24, 2016, 03:54:36 PM

I'm still playing this game and love it.  Currently working through The White March on Expert and Path of the Damned mode.  Gafol the Drunkard just camped out at my stronghold looking for 1200 cp to help pay off his gambling debts.


I picked the Zahua solution ...


Zahua - "These are snares that tie you to the world.  The solution is to burn all your possessions, and to pay your creditors with acts of self-mutilation."
Zahua will be busy for 5 days.

 why so serious?
Sophismata
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Reply #713 on: July 05, 2016, 10:38:25 PM

There are two great things about BG2, character development and chapter 2. PoE doesn't have either.
Ah-freaking-men, brother. I don't know if modern designers realise that was the best part of BG2 — some seem to think of it as a mistake.

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
Sir T
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Reply #714 on: July 06, 2016, 05:30:57 AM

I'm trying to remember chapter 2, its been a long time since I played BG2. Refresher?

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satael
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Reply #715 on: July 06, 2016, 08:04:57 AM

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/chapter-2-overview.php

If you want a good "city adventure" I'd rather go with Planescape: Torment.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
lamaros
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Reply #716 on: July 06, 2016, 06:17:20 PM

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/chapter-2-overview.php

If you want a good "city adventure" I'd rather go with Planescape: Torment.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Not for me, I found P:T too much of an interactive novel and less of a game, I vastly prefer BG (I know many are of a different view). It's not that BG2 was a "city adventure", it was that it was dense and non-linear, yet still linked to a strong sense of world and story.

These are always the best parts of a RPG for me, I have a similar fondness for the early chapters of BaK. I think early FO:NV does it well too, before getting a bit unspooled when you hit Vegas itself.

My 'ideal' form for these games is the tight opening to ground you in the story and world, then the next section of the game being a narratively suggested open exploration and character development (BG2's raise money chapter 2, BaK's solve the mystery chapter 3, ME2's construct a team section) before the narrative tightens to the final point. Too much open space at the end makes the game lose steam (FO:NV), but too much direction early weakens the development and exploration side (Shadowrun games).

BG2 has a very linear opening, then sprawl of chapter 2 (and 3), then the tighter direction of chapter 4, opening up again in chapter 5 as a smaller version of chapter 2, then the directed chapter 6, then the directed chapter 7.

Of this whole structure I only really dislike chapter 7, which I think drags on a little when it should be driving to a point. Consequently I find it a bit naff and overwrought. However the shape of the other chapters works really well for me, and I wish other games did it: Very tight establishing narrative, very open narratively justified exploration and development, pretty tight narrative push, somewhat open further exploration and final development, very tight finale.

I think the WOW/MMO influence has upset the beauty of this structure in a few recent games, where now they either tend to be tight narrative all the way through, or 'open-world' sandboxes that feel energetically disconnected from the narrative.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 06:51:43 PM by lamaros »
Rasix
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Reply #717 on: July 07, 2016, 12:17:31 AM

I feel like I should love this game, but it's starting to annoy me. I'm getting into encounters where I do absolutely no damage and just get my ass kicked very slowly because I can't kill a damn thing.  Well, unless they hit something other than my 2 tanks, then they just fall over in a few hits.

Nothing does any damage.  They just plink, plink, plink.  And then I die because everything has pocket healers sitting behind walls of death or enough damage resistance to just shrug off anything I throw at it. I know there's merit to avoiding autoscaling, but this kind of encounter design isn't vaguely enjoyable. It's just annoying.

Game just isn't ramping up at an enjoyable pace. Does it get more interesting or it is it just a matter of incrementally scaling past whatever you're currently on?

 undecided


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lamaros
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Reply #718 on: July 07, 2016, 12:45:22 AM

I feel like I should love this game, but it's starting to annoy me. I'm getting into encounters where I do absolutely no damage and just get my ass kicked very slowly because I can't kill a damn thing.  Well, unless they hit something other than my 2 tanks, then they just fall over in a few hits.

Nothing does any damage.  They just plink, plink, plink.  And then I die because everything has pocket healers sitting behind walls of death or enough damage resistance to just shrug off anything I throw at it. I know there's merit to avoiding autoscaling, but this kind of encounter design isn't vaguely enjoyable. It's just annoying.

Game just isn't ramping up at an enjoyable pace. Does it get more interesting or it is it just a matter of incrementally scaling past whatever you're currently on?

 undecided



For me it got less interesting as it went on for me, was a grind at the end, i just rushed to finish.
Gimfain
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Reply #719 on: July 07, 2016, 02:13:01 AM

I feel like I should love this game, but it's starting to annoy me. I'm getting into encounters where I do absolutely no damage and just get my ass kicked very slowly because I can't kill a damn thing.  Well, unless they hit something other than my 2 tanks, then they just fall over in a few hits.

Nothing does any damage.  They just plink, plink, plink.  And then I die because everything has pocket healers sitting behind walls of death or enough damage resistance to just shrug off anything I throw at it. I know there's merit to avoiding autoscaling, but this kind of encounter design isn't vaguely enjoyable. It's just annoying.

Game just isn't ramping up at an enjoyable pace. Does it get more interesting or it is it just a matter of incrementally scaling past whatever you're currently on?

 undecided
Autoscaling is bit of a pain since it boosts monster defenses and DR in a similar way that Path of the Damned does, and it doesn't do it in a kind way. You really have to use melee/ranged attacks with high DR penetration or nothing will die. Spells that boost your accuracy will also help a lot. There are some ways to cheese your way through the game but only thing you do is ruin your own fun.

If you are deep into act 2 and/or doing caed nua 6-10 without enjoying the combat gameplay you will struggle to finish the game. Personally I loved it but I had been looking for this kind of combat for quite some time.

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Reply #720 on: July 07, 2016, 02:42:00 AM

IMO the base game is kinda bland, but the expansion does add some legit good encounters and some moderately interesting itemization (in the form of 'soulbound' gear). Can't do much about the basic ho-hum design decisions of the game, though.

Sophismata
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Reply #721 on: July 07, 2016, 06:31:16 PM

I've played exclusively on Path of the Damned, most of the combat issues I had are related to how traditional tactics are ineffective but kiting is stupidly good. It kind of clicks when you first fight those trolls early on in the game - try to set up a front line with support and you'll take a beating, but send in the PC alone and he can just plink, step back, plink all day and trivialise a lot of those fights.

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
Zetor
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Reply #722 on: July 07, 2016, 08:34:59 PM

My playthrough was also on POTD, and there are definitely a few tactics that trivialize most encounters (many of them involving chokepointing or splitting the enemy team via kiting). There are some encounters in the expansion where they're not an option, though -- IMO those are the better ones.

Trolls are sort of an exception in that they're untankable but slow and have like zero resistance to mind-affecting spells, so a cipher with a ranged weapon can solo basically any number of them effortlessly. You can even stay in melee range with your dudes as long as they're not the current target the troll is fixated on.

amiable
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Reply #723 on: March 05, 2019, 06:08:21 AM

I know this is a bit of a necro but POE2 just added a turn based mode and I am enjoying it a lot.  Not perfectly balanced but much more of a DOS:2 vibe.  I would love it if more games did this.
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Reply #724 on: March 05, 2019, 08:39:20 AM

I've been revisiting this as well.  What I find simultaneously amusing and frustrating is that most of the builds posted online are for the beta or immediately post-launch and have all been nerfed tremendously.
Khaldun
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Reply #725 on: March 06, 2019, 01:43:35 PM

I enjoyed it. The ship combat was bad. The ending wasn't terribly satisfying. Some of the companion arcs seemed unfinished. But basically fun.
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