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Author Topic: Dungeon Chat  (Read 38678 times)
Raknor
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on: September 10, 2012, 10:41:15 AM

Yeah the first dungeon made me feel like I was trying to run a WoW heroic with no tank or healer. Which is when I started to look at my character to see what I could do to help. 

This game seems to be fundamentally different to the way I've been playing for years. Which I kind of knew going into it but it had a nice way of reminding me with massive amounts of failure.  From reading some forums it seems to be about stacking conditions on the mobs so they either can't attack, you reflect the attack back to them, or they miss a lot. If you can't do it through your skills then its time to start double tap dodging.  This also goes into the combo moves thing and trying to recognize what others are using around you.

Just as my own example. I am playing a guardian and have found the power of blind!  Its absolutely amazing how much better my group can survive when I'm spamming it. I run greatsword and sword/torch.  My greatsword #4 is a leap that ae blinds when I land.  1h sword #2 is a teleport to mob and ae blind on land. Through traits my Virtue of Justice buff, when activated, ae blinds but has a pretty long cool down. Except..... that with my mastery skill, killing any mob resets the cool down.  Which means in AE packs, assuming I've hit everything at least once, it pretty much refreshes like crazy.  I just spam my F1 in huge ae packs and it has greatly increased our survivability. I actually had a pug mention on a pack in CM that that was the first time he'd done it w/o someone dying. No one even reached 80%.  First mob through the door got wrecked and it was a blind train from there on out.

I haven't played any other classes but I would assume others have similar type conditions they can put on mobs. Some coordination of those abilities would be scary.

I still feel like a total noob playing this game when it comes to combos though.  But I'm getting better. I didn't even know I could combo off my own moves until level 35, so I started with that. I can drop a fire on the ground, which if leaped into, gives me a flame ae aura, and if I do a whirl move in the fire, my attacks do some flame stuff. Being in voice chat with friends and having them verbally tell you what they are casting that you can combo off of helps a lot when you start. I've been playing with 2 warriors and I call out when my flames are going down.  All 3 of us do a leap ability and the flame auras all pop up.  After 2 dungeons of verbally saying it, now they just do it when they see the fire.

Also starting to realize in the dungeons that rushing in and blowing all your weapon cool downs and swapping to the next weapon to blow all those as fast as you can get them off, isn't the most effect way to play.  It is good fun though!  Knowing when to use a move that combos with another move (light ae + my whirl = ae heal) is better than just face rolling the keyboard to spam buttons.
01101010
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Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 12:15:14 PM

I still feel like a total noob playing this game when it comes to combos though.  But I'm getting better. I didn't even know I could combo off my own moves until level 35, so I started with that. I can drop a fire on the ground, which if leaped into, gives me a flame ae aura, and if I do a whirl move in the fire, my attacks do some flame stuff. Being in voice chat with friends and having them verbally tell you what they are casting that you can combo off of helps a lot when you start. I've been playing with 2 warriors and I call out when my flames are going down.  All 3 of us do a leap ability and the flame auras all pop up.  After 2 dungeons of verbally saying it, now they just do it when they see the fire.

Also starting to realize in the dungeons that rushing in and blowing all your weapon cool downs and swapping to the next weapon to blow all those as fast as you can get them off, isn't the most effect way to play.  It is good fun though!  Knowing when to use a move that combos with another move (light ae + my whirl = ae heal) is better than just face rolling the keyboard to spam buttons.

Nothing better than finding a group of three mobs on my thief. Shortbow for the poison field just on the outskirts of the group then switch to daggers and throw dagger and watch it bounce around poisoning everyone. Then Steal into the group and use whatever you get... whirlwind of death is a great one to mop up the group.

But yeah... I love figuring out self-combos. I seem to have the life-stealing one figured out on my necro. That has saved my ass a few times... especially if necrotic reach pierces through the mobs in a line.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
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Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 12:36:03 PM

As a longbow/greatsword warrior, I only really self-combo for area might intentionally. Any burning arrows or whatever are a bonus.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 01:06:45 PM

I wish I knew sooner how much melee sucked in this game. Having switched to ranged on my guardian it's like night and day.

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Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 01:17:54 PM

I find guardian ranged incredibly boring, personally.

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01101010
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Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 01:21:16 PM

I find guardian ranged incredibly boring, personally.

We talking staff / scepter+whatever? Yeah... though it has to be done for some of these mobs you just can't stay in melee range with.

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Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 01:23:18 PM

Scepter/focus is actually a lot less boring since there is a lot more moving around for me.  That and compared to how slow two handers feel it's just a different world but really, after doing AC for the first time last night I realized how incredibly screwed melee are in a game without healers.

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Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 01:28:33 PM

It's just the group PVE that's shit for melee (meaning dungeons and some of the Group Event outdoor things), and I would argue that it is actually just the core design of group PVE that is shit for everyone, it's just MORE shitty for melee. When I ran AC I swapped to ranged too, and it lowered the frustration value slightly but didn't increase the fun. Regular event PVE and WvW is fine as melee. You do have to carry a ranged swap for keep wall situations, obviously.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 01:31:05 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 01:29:21 PM

Guardian ranged feels shittiest to me, but this is probably partly because warrior ranged is a hoot. But I try to avoid ranged on my guardian as much as possible, but in the giant zerg fights against champion mobs, I give up and switch to staff. And then I get a bronze medal because the way they calculate contribution is stupid (and sometimes buggy, I got a gold medal for an event while I was afk at a waypoint).

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Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 01:31:47 PM

If you're melee and want to actually STAY in melee, you need a lot more setup than a ranged char. Basically you need the enemy debuffed with blind/weakness/chill at all times (and you probably can't apply all of those by yourself), some way to get good protection uptime on yourself, and a skill that gets you some sort of active avoidance like block. You also need the reflexes of a crack-addled monkey to dodge enemy big-hitter attacks as the animation happens... and I'm not talking about the aoe circles. In the end, I'm not sure what the payoff is, other than maybe soaking up attacks instead of the glass cannons tossing fireballs (and you can only facetank a boss in *story mode* if you're getting the appropriate buffs/debuffs, see above - I'm not sure if facetanking is an option at all in explorable mode). Does melee do more damage than a ranged build with equivalent gear?

...so yea, me and my 400 ping are sticking with ranged, thankyouverymuch. If you're taking hits from range, you have more dodge options, can LOS, kite, or use a projectile reflect ability.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 01:33:29 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 01:33:25 PM

I do feel like I kill things much faster with a greatsword than with ranged, but I'm not sure if that is reality or perception because I am having more fun. Melee all being cleaves probably factors into it.

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Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 01:36:09 PM

My next character is going to be a guardian (asura, obv  awesome, for real) and I like what I've seen of hammer and sword/focus so far... but I'm also worried about a lack of ranged options.

For reference, my staff elementalist gets gold medals for everything, even events I join late. Tons of combo fields (do those count for contrib?), heavy aoe damage/healing, and 1200 range makes for good times. Guardian staff skills look like they suuuck, though.

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Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 01:37:20 PM

Hammer's 3rd swing is sooooo slow. It really irritates me. Greatsword is nice and snappy through all 3 animations, and importantly, it has a closer which hammer lacks (you could get it by running sword/shield or greatsword as your weapon swap with hammer, but then you lost your ability to drop to ranged if you need it.)

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Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 01:42:23 PM

Thief dagger/dagger is just a joy to watch and does nasty damage, but you're incredibly exposed to just getting gibbed.  I have to drop it for pistol/x and short bow, because short bow lacks DPS, but pistol lacks AOE.  Also, it's hard to keep so many weapons updated.

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Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 01:47:19 PM

I think I've read somewhere that they actually do make melee do more damage than ranged to make up for how much easier ranged have it.

With my Ranger i feel my sword/warhorn combo does do more damage than longbow, but longbow fits me better :)
Sky
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Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 01:53:00 PM

I wasn't a fan of the guardian's ranged stuff through level 23, and yes the melee-only stuff is hell with some of the aoe stuff mobs have. Even on my vitality/toughness guard with mace/shield I'd often get my ass handed to me by bosses or stand around outside their aoe waiting for health to regen before closing again, plinking away with ranged. I also agree on the shortbow, it's a lot of fun and very useful, but it's limited in dps.

I generally run my thief dagger/dagger and shortbow; I usually bronze or silver boss events :( I did make her a bit too vitality/toughness for soloing, though.

With the warrior, I'm about even dps (except 100 awesomeness) between melee and ranged, so I do a lot more darting in and out in boss fights and haven't gone down yet despite being precision/power focused. Start in longbow, use f1 for fire field (if up), then bow3 for area might/decent aoe damage, pin the mob with bow5; swap to greatsword and whirl into melee and pop 100 for might+crit alpha strike; roll back out and repeat. It's really nasty.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 01:56:07 PM by Sky »
Sjofn
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Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 01:56:08 PM

My next character is going to be a guardian (asura, obv  awesome, for real) and I like what I've seen of hammer and sword/focus so far... but I'm also worried about a lack of ranged options.

For reference, my staff elementalist gets gold medals for everything, even events I join late. Tons of combo fields (do those count for contrib?), heavy aoe damage/healing, and 1200 range makes for good times. Guardian staff skills look like they suuuck, though.

I don't think combo fields count for contribution. When I go full-on support with my elementalist in those events, it's bronze medals, even though I am a combo field generating machine. If I go "fuck all of you" and just DPS the entire time, gold medals.

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tazelbain
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Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 02:00:18 PM


I don't think combo fields count for contribution. When I go full-on support with my elementalist in those events, it's bronze medals, even though I am a combo field generating machine. If I go "fuck all of you" and just DPS the entire time, gold medals.
This is my experience especially when dealling with big bosses and lots of players it's hard to get silver.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:02:24 PM by tazelbain »

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Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 02:01:46 PM

Thief dagger/dagger is just a joy to watch and does nasty damage, but you're incredibly exposed to just getting gibbed.  I have to drop it for pistol/x and short bow, because short bow lacks DPS, but pistol lacks AOE.  Also, it's hard to keep so many weapons updated.

If you like dagger melee, then try dagger/pistol.  The blind field from Black Powder is great.

Over and out.
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Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 02:39:32 PM

The fact npcs/players block projectiles can really be abused with the heroes in dungeons.

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Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 02:58:47 PM

Guardian Staff is just bizarre, it's this odd mishmash of abilities that don't seem to mesh well together at all... EXCEPT for any choke point situation.  

Then you drop the wall, channel the might and AE the shit out of everything on the wrong side of the wall.


I wouldn't use it to just do random questing though, just about any other weapon combo is more suited for it.



I'm still running Mace/Shield and Scepter/Shield, partly because I got sick of keeping 15 weapons up to date and partly because I find the shield offhand the most useful while leveling and mass zerg eventing. It's like 80% Mace up time, and 20% Scepter. The only good thing about Scepter is you can back load it quite a bit. Otherwise it's pretty straight forward and simple, and doesn't really combo with anything. It gets the job done though.

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Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 03:02:08 PM

Yeah staff is very much a 'door to keep just fell YOU SHALL NOT PASS' sort of thing. (Also the 2 orb turns out to be decent for long range plinking of siege weapons and keep archers.)

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Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 03:45:39 PM

The orb thing works pretty well in the ZERG THE CHAMPION RAAAAARGH things too, I can hit a lot of people with the heal part.  why so serious?

I vastly prefer staff to scepter. I don't like the scepter animations, it's boring to use, and the only time I use ranged stuff is during the One Big Dude parts of world events, so all the "choke point" stuff works just fine. The main thing is the wall just becomes "extra combo field" rather than "NO STAY OVER THERE."

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Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 03:47:33 PM

The little AE smite thing on scepter 2 is good for farming contribution.  why so serious?

More importantly the immobilize/vulnerability nuke on 3 is really pretty good in its own right.

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Reply #24 on: September 10, 2012, 04:47:25 PM

- you can use some instant skills while you're channeling another skill or reviving someone. You can also use some skills while you're knocked down or being KB'd (some instants, and things like attunement/kit swaps).
- you can intercept enemy projectiles by standing between the attacker and the target.

I've revived quite a few people against tough ranged bosses by body-blocking them, starting the revive, switching to earth attunement and using my "reflect projectiles" skill, then switching to water to get some regen going... the revive keeps channeling through all that. It's super effective!

Glad you're playing an Ele so I can pick yer brain! Which stats do you focus on for your gear and which Traits did you take?

And I kinda wanted to use this icon:  Love Letters but couldn't accept it was called "love letters"...
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Reply #25 on: September 10, 2012, 04:49:22 PM

It's ok. Most of our love letters here are rants about games.

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Reply #26 on: September 10, 2012, 06:00:59 PM

The little AE smite thing on scepter 2 is good for farming contribution.  why so serious?

More importantly the immobilize/vulnerability nuke on 3 is really pretty good in its own right.


I want to say each tick of the AE smite will contribute to the burning virture stack, but its such a cluster fuck most of the time I can't say for sure.


That would be my current complaint overall. I can be fighting the same mobs for 10 minutes without any issue at all, then randomly those same mobs suddenly kick the living shit out of me and I have no idea why. It's not like a veteran sneaking in or anything, it's just regular mobs, that I have been murdering without issue for awhile, suddenly dismantling me.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #27 on: September 10, 2012, 10:43:55 PM

- you can use some instant skills while you're channeling another skill or reviving someone. You can also use some skills while you're knocked down or being KB'd (some instants, and things like attunement/kit swaps).
- you can intercept enemy projectiles by standing between the attacker and the target.

I've revived quite a few people against tough ranged bosses by body-blocking them, starting the revive, switching to earth attunement and using my "reflect projectiles" skill, then switching to water to get some regen going... the revive keeps channeling through all that. It's super effective!
Glad you're playing an Ele so I can pick yer brain! Which stats do you focus on for your gear and which Traits did you take?

And I kinda wanted to use this icon:  Love Letters but couldn't accept it was called "love letters"...
I was going for a support-ish build that could still do decent damage (split between fire, arcane, and water, and even some air)... it's not really optimized for anything, but I found the grandmaster traits uninspiring for the most part. The must-haves (IMO):

20 fire for burnination (it also gets you +power, which is nice)
- 5 is not very useful
- 10 is basically 10% extra damage if you're in fire attunement (or in the first 5 sec after you switch to another attunement, see below), from everything. I think that's pretty good. (Internal Fire)
- 15 is also not that good
- 20 is great, it reduces cooldowns for your fire spells by 20%... it's not directly a 20% damage increase, but it definitely makes things die a lot faster (Pyromancer's Alacrity)

10 air if you like glyphs
- 5 in air gets you slightly faster move speed, which is nice (not sure if it stacks with swiftness - as a staff ele I have perma-swiftness anyway)
- 10 in air reduces your glyph cooldowns by 20%, this is huge! I'm using a self-heal glyph, an aoe glyph (glyph of storms) and a summon elemental glyph... it's noticable. (Quick Glyphs)

15 water for teh haelz
- 5 in water gives you a passive aoe regen that really increases survivability in my experience.
- 10 in water removes a condition when attuning to water - a lifesaver to remove poison before you heal (Cleansing Waves)
- 15 in water gives a noticable aoe heal when attuning to water, pretty good for ohcrap moments
(20 in water gets you Vital Striking, which gives a bonus - 10%? 15%? - to all damage dealt as long as you're at almost full HP.. very nice for a glass cannon build if you're kiting and not taking damage in the first place.)

20 arcane reduces your attunement cooldowns, which is very important imo. Going 30 arcane -may- be warranted for Evasive Arcana (you get your own blast finishers!), but I haven't looked into it yet
- 5 arcane is kind of confusing, but it basically means that if you have a bonus for being in a certain attunement (like the passive regen in water), it stays with you for 5 sec when switching to another attunement - it also means that you can switch attunements while you're casting a spell and it'll still go off (since you're "in" the previous attunement still). It's pretty good.
- 10 arcane gets you Elemental Attunement, which is very powerful defensively (on-demand free protection/regen? yes plz)
- 15 arcane is meh as you'll probably only have enough time to fire off one spell with the crit buff, but...
- 20 arcane gets you an absolutely crucial trait if you're using a staff, it increases all your AOEs by quite a bit (Blasting Staff)

Honestly I didn't build for any one stat, I just picked up gear as it dropped... tried to get +power first, followed by +toughness and +healing. But if a +condition damage yellow dropped, I was all over that crap, too.

Now that I'm 80, I've started to pay more attention, and will probably end up building multiple sets (healing/toughness for dungeons, power/precision for glass cannon solo pve and wvw since if something's hitting me, I'm probably already dead, and maybe a more survivability-focused set for killing tough things).

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Reply #28 on: September 11, 2012, 01:21:21 AM

Meh. too late.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:23:51 AM by Phred »
01101010
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Reply #29 on: September 11, 2012, 04:22:21 AM


I want to say each tick of the AE smite will contribute to the burning virture stack, but its such a cluster fuck most of the time I can't say for sure.


That would be my current complaint overall. I can be fighting the same mobs for 10 minutes without any issue at all, then randomly those same mobs suddenly kick the living shit out of me and I have no idea why. It's not like a veteran sneaking in or anything, it's just regular mobs, that I have been murdering without issue for awhile, suddenly dismantling me.



Hi there!  awesome, for real

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Reply #30 on: September 11, 2012, 04:33:49 AM

I can be fighting the same mobs for 10 minutes without any issue at all, then randomly those same mobs suddenly kick the living shit out of me and I have no idea why. It's not like a veteran sneaking in or anything, it's just regular mobs, that I have been murdering without issue for awhile, suddenly dismantling me.

What does combat log say?

01101010
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Reply #31 on: September 11, 2012, 05:58:43 AM

I can be fighting the same mobs for 10 minutes without any issue at all, then randomly those same mobs suddenly kick the living shit out of me and I have no idea why. It's not like a veteran sneaking in or anything, it's just regular mobs, that I have been murdering without issue for awhile, suddenly dismantling me.

What does combat log say?

Not to get all light-hearted conspiracy - but I always thought that when you target an area and start mass murdering the same type mobs, there is a built in revenge mechanic that kicks in after a time. This started, obviously, when I was playing FFXI and always had that one starter zone mob that hit infinitely harder and took very little damage even though it was the same con as the rest of the same mobs I had littered the landscape with their corpses.

In that same context, I have noticed that I have a nice rotation now on my thief in which I can shred through a single etten in a couple key presses. However, I get to another etten - same make and model and year, and my rotation only brings them down 3/4 in hp. A little odd given nothing really has changed on my end. Perhaps the mobs have a hidden tier of difficulty.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
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Reply #32 on: September 11, 2012, 07:03:44 AM

The grey con chickens will fuck you up if you kill enough of them.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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Reply #33 on: September 11, 2012, 08:39:21 AM

Not sure this relates: but there was a gray con chicken kicking ass in Lion's Arch the other night. I port and as I'm running by I see a few players beating on this chicken. I was surprised because it wasn't already dead. I target it and it's only down 25% or so, and these players are whaling on it. So I join the fray. Takes another 2 full minutes to finally kill it. There were some ghosts around and they went away too, though I thought they were originally some Mesmer trick (I know dickall about most other classes).

I can be fighting the same mobs for 10 minutes without any issue at all, then randomly those same mobs suddenly kick the living shit out of me and I have no idea why. It's not like a veteran sneaking in or anything, it's just regular mobs, that I have been murdering without issue for awhile, suddenly dismantling me.

Is it possible other players showed up in the same area during the fight? Is the combat system that responsive that stats can change mid-fight like that?

I do like the revenge idea/conspiracy though. That would make some sense as the other side of granting XP bonuses to under-hunted mobs (which is in game).

edit: Thanks Zetor, digesting your Ele insights!
Sky
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Reply #34 on: September 11, 2012, 08:47:00 AM

I've insta-died (not downed, just BAM dead) to mobs I'd been mowing through pretty well, when assaulting a Svanir camp with insane respawn. Nothing untoward in the combat log. I put it down to a bug, because it would be a stupid mechanic.
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