Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[tmp]

Q: How do you squeeze more money out of the whales who purchased a number of your virtual ships?
A: charge them extra every time they switch between these ships

There will be a fee on downgrades. Basically, it's necessary to reduce the abuse of the system: people switching willy nilly between whatever ships they want to fly on this day and causing unnecessary database schmeg.

Schmeg. It's what's unnecessary for databases.

I couldn't think of the right word here.

[..]

We haven't decided definitively what the fee will be. Basically, we want choice to matter, and if you can go back and forth without some form of cost it's our belief, at present, that it devalues the choice itself. Will the fee be IRL money, in-game credits, a skin that says, "I changed my mind" for 48 hours? We don't know, just yet. But it's our thinking at present that it's not enough to put a timer on it to achieve the result we're looking for.

Could that change? ABSOLUTELY. It's called development for a reason. =)

The only thing we're pretty certain on right now with regards to the CCU: we don't want people swapping their ships back and forth with patience as the only requirement. It's our feeling it would ultimately hurt the sense of ownership we want people to have in their ships when they can just swap them out with nothing more than a little waiting.

Also, the database stuff. And probably a few other things that haven't been shared with me just yet. It's pretty common to have more than one reason for any course of action we take, but these are the ones I can think of at this moment. =)

To think all these MMOs were allowing people to change their virtual pants for free all these years. So much unpunished abuse and database schmeg

[Trippy]

[Malakili]

I don't even understand what the hell they are talking about with "downgrades" if I'm being honest.  Are we really talking about switching ships?  Someone please explain.

[schild]

This is the most complex fake game never made.

[jakonovski]

"We don't know if it'll be real money"

YES YOU DO

[Rasix]

A fee for switching ships...



I'm sure the fanbois will really love swiping their credit card every time they want to try one of the $1,000 fancy custom skins ships they bought.

[ezrast]

I don't even understand what the hell they are talking about with "downgrades" if I'm being honest.  Are we really talking about switching ships?  Someone please explain.

After a few minutes of Googling, I'm pretty sure they're not talking about hopping between ships in-game. They're letting players who have already spent real money on a ship spend more real money to get a fancier ship instead (or "downgrade" to a less fancy ship and get some credit).

It's like if I bought a $20 premium tank in World of Tanks, and they let me spend an extra $10 to have a $30 tank instead. But with spaceships instead of tanks and with a couple extra zeros on all those numbers.

If it wasn't limited somehow then buying the one most expensive ship would be equivalent to owning every premium ship in the game.

[jakonovski]

Technically, since none of that shit exists, those things are equivalent. You don't get the game no matter what.

[Malakili]

Ah, so this really doesn't stop you from switching between you $1000 ship and your $500 ship as long as you got both separately through pledges, this just means you can't exchange your $1000 ship for the $500 ship and $500 credit and then melt the $500 ship and use the balance to get the $1000 ship back and play indefinitely musical starships... because database schmeg.

Well whatever.

[Rendakor]

Ah, so this really doesn't stop you from switching between you $1000 ship and your $500 ship as long as you got both separately through pledges, this just means you can't exchange your $1000 ship for the $500 ship and $500 credit and then melt the $500 ship and use the balance to get the $1000 ship back and play indefinitely musical starships... because database schmeg.

Well whatever.

If this is the case then it's not a big deal, and I'm surprised they're even allowing you to exchange your $1000 ship at all.

[Khaldun]

Even IF there's a reasonable explanation these guys can't keep themselves from sounding like shifty motherfuckers looking to grift something new out of the suckers who are already into them for large monies.

I think this story goes back to before crowdfunding, way back into when beta testing started to be a way to recruit your MMO customers and you had to start giving them reasons to hope even when your game was obviously broken. The day that beta wasn't about finding bugs but was instead about marketing was the little sperm that has finally made a giant, bloody, chest-bursting baby with Star Citizen.

[tmp]

I don't even understand what the hell they are talking about with "downgrades" if I'm being honest.  Are we really talking about switching ships?  Someone please explain.

Reading some more about it, from what I gather supposedly it's some sort of a system they have, which allows you to "melt" any ship you own to receive (in-game, I presume) money, which you can then use to buy different ship of equal, or lesser worth. So effectively, they are concerned someone who spent few hundred bucks on a virtual spaceship would be able to try out other virtual spaceships without shelling out extra money on these ships specifically? idk, but if that's the case then the fact they'd design such system and not figure out this would be obvious way to use it... that's large enough clown shoes on their own.

[Velorath]

Ah, so this really doesn't stop you from switching between you $1000 ship and your $500 ship as long as you got both separately through pledges, this just means you can't exchange your $1000 ship for the $500 ship and $500 credit and then melt the $500 ship and use the balance to get the $1000 ship back and play indefinitely musical starships... because database schmeg.

Well whatever.

If this is the case then it's not a big deal, and I'm surprised they're even allowing you to exchange your $1000 ship at all.

It's not a big deal, but I can see it being an issue for people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on ships based on a description or video years before they're able to actually use them. For someone who gets to finally try out their $1000 ship after three years of waiting and finds out that don't really like it, it would probably be nice to just let them swap it out for something else without trying to get more money out of them.

[Samwise]

Why wouldn't you just do like most other games with similar systems and take a little percentage off the buyback price if you want to keep ships from being completely liquid?  What's this talk of "schmeg"?

[Trippy]

Not sure but they probably hired the same people who did the database design on Star Wars Galaxies for this game as well.

[Velorath]

Also I don't really get the "we want choice to matter" stuff here. As long as the game is in such an incomplete state choice shouldn't matter at all. They should be allowing people to use any ship they want right now, because what the fuck does it matter, and wouldn't it be better for testing purposes anyway?

[Jeff Kelly]

I guess some lawyer or tax consultant explained to them in simple words and short sentences what money laundering is and how it can be applied to Star Citizen. Since all of those fancy Starships are really nice looking $1000 bills if they can be freely converted to in game credits and back again.

I guess you could basically buy a $10,000 custom skin space ship, 'melt' it transfer the in-game funds to someone else and then convert it back into another $10,000 custom skin space ship that the other person can then sell on ebay.

In good old Chris Roberts tradition they then didn't do the sane (and legal) thing and simply ban sale of in-game currency or assets with real world money but simply added a virtual 'interest' to it.

[Nija]

As someone who deals with databases for a living, this really hammers home just how fucked up this project is. They can't do ANYTHING right.

[HaemishM]

I guess some lawyer or tax consultant explained to them in simple words and short sentences what money laundering is and how it can be applied to Star Citizen.

This guy must have an office at CIG somewhere.



This sounds like complete and utter clownshoes to me, so... PAR FOR THE COURSE!

[Ironwood]

Is Schmeg and ancient Jewish word for 'Database Inconsistency' ?   

[Falconeer]

Just stumbled on this. November 2012. It's three damn years ago. Between hilarious and tragic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp_eYvXhx5c

[brellium]

God, it would be terrible if we go 20 years and X3:AP remains the gold standard for space sims. Which would be more ironic if Egosoft releases another turd.

[IainC]

It's not a big deal, but I can see it being an issue for people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on ships based on a description or video years before they're able to actually use them. For someone who gets to finally try out their $1000 ship after three years of waiting and finds out that don't really like it, it would probably be nice to just let them swap it out for something else without trying to get more money out of them.

It's a solution to a problem entirely created by their shitty business model. In another game, this doesn't even exist as a problem. If Eve Online for example sold premium ships, you'd be able to meaningfully evaluate the ship you were buying by comparing it to other ships in the game. You can rivet count and theorycraft as much as you like before you get the credit card out. How good is a given Star Citizen ship? Who knows? Here have $1800 for a ship that looks pretty, please don't make it suck in the game.

[Lucas]

MISC Endeavour sale (lasts until CitizenCon, October 10th):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14972-Research-Unbound-The-MISC-Endeavor

Design Doc - onboard Science activities by Tony Zurovec (nice ideas, we'll see how they will actually translate to a realistic gaming system, just like everything else. Gardening Commander Organics and Medical sound very cool):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/14974-Design-The-Endeavor

I'll finally get my very own virtual marijuana plantation, together with a Meth Lab  

[Brolan]

The morons shoveling cash at this thing deserve every screw job they get.  WC Fields was right.  "Never give a sucker an even break".

[HaemishM]

MISC Endeavour sale (lasts until CitizenCon, October 10th):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14972-Research-Unbound-The-MISC-Endeavor

Wait, a $900 ship that you can add $45 pods to, as well as buy other ships to put inside your bigger ships?

Goddamnit, where is Xibit when you need him? Yo dawg I heard you like...

[Hutch]

... to spend real money on virtual spaceships, so we put database schmeg in your virtual money.

[Yegolev]

 

[Khaldun]

You know, every time I think about this, I realize the following:

1) Let's just say they actually deliver this whole fucking thing just as they've described it. Everything.
2) They will now either have to allow the dumbshits who dropped thousands of real $$$ on it to crush everyone else and everything else like fleas, thereby limiting the only people who will want to play to a) people who've dropped thousands of real $$$ on it or b) crazy masochists
3) Or they will have to allow new players to work their way in some reasonable time frame towards parity, which will mean the real $$$ payers will howl and scream about the injustice of it all.

I know, I know, the FAQ has addressed all this already or whatever. But come on, even in the best case scenario, these guys have backed themselves into a zillion design cul-de-sacs that will be brutally destructive to whatever it is they eventually push out the door.

[Teleku]

They'd only be screwing the whales to funded the creation of the game.  Once the game is out, you make all your money on getting tons of people to play it, buy it, and spend money on micro transactions.  Who cares about all the big spenders at that point!   


Not that they will ever release the full game that they are describing.

[Lucas]

You know, every time I think about this, I realize the following:

1) Let's just say they actually deliver this whole fucking thing just as they've described it. Everything.
2) They will now either have to allow the dumbshits who dropped thousands of real $$$ on it to crush everyone else and everything else like fleas, thereby limiting the only people who will want to play to a) people who've dropped thousands of real $$$ on it or b) crazy masochists
3) Or they will have to allow new players to work their way in some reasonable time frame towards parity, which will mean the real $$$ payers will howl and scream about the injustice of it all.

I know, I know, the FAQ has addressed all this already or whatever. But come on, even in the best case scenario, these guys have backed themselves into a zillion design cul-de-sacs that will be brutally destructive to whatever it is they eventually push out the door.

Good points.  CIG will undoubtedly strive to achieve scenario n. 3 (at least as pretty "window-dressing") but, as massive multiplayer games taught us in the past, finding economic loopholes (or even cheats) is not that hard especially when gaming systems are still immature, so a well organized guild could get a Javelin Destroyer ship (a limited amount was sold a few months ago for $2.500) within a month. Now, in that case, you could argue that it's a "guild ship", owned by everyone and not just a single person(but the same "loopholes" could be exploited by an individual, yes). So, the big question is, how do you translate a $2,500 virtual ship in in-game currency/time played?

And yes, I agree with Teleku that, at that point, "whales" will have served their purpose, thanks for your whaling :D. A portion of whales won't have a problem with that because they actually did that out of "good faith", no matter how crazy that sounds, the others will start howling and screaming, yes.

[ajax34i]

What they're doing right now is making them boatloads of money, so why proceed to step 1) at all?  "Backer" packages cost at least as much as an actual box with a game inside, so why stop creating "content" to attract backers when it's so easy compared to creating a good actual game to attract gamers?

[Samprimary]

MISC Endeavour sale (lasts until CitizenCon, October 10th):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14972-Research-Unbound-The-MISC-Endeavor

when that page reached the pricing and sale portion is the single point that has shaken my faith in this game's potential the absolute most

and keep in mind i still think this will produce an ok game in the most likelihood.

but jesus christ.

[Malakili]

when that page reached the pricing and sale portion is the single point that has shaken my faith in this game's potential the absolute most

and keep in mind i still think this will produce an ok game in the most likelihood.

but jesus christ.

This isn't new at all.  This is - literally - business as usual.

[Kail]

They'd only be screwing the whales to funded the creation of the game.  Once the game is out, you make all your money on getting tons of people to play it, buy it, and spend money on micro transactions.  Who cares about all the big spenders at that point!   

That seems really unlikely.  I've seen a lot of game business models, and "give the finger to people who gave you millions of dollars in the hopes that the people who haven't given you anything will change their minds" has not come up very often.

They might change the way that they target high spenders once the game comes out, but there is pretty much zero chance that the casual crowd is going to end up as anything other than sheep for high spending wolves.  Right now, they're basically selling hope, the dream that this game will exist someday.  Once this game releases, and these ships become actual tangible (virtual, whatever) products with measurable performance and desirability, that goes away, and these things will be subject to market forces.  People will buy whatever is cheapest and most effective, and if they can easily obtain this stuff for imaginary spacebucks in game, real money sales will fall off a cliff.  Either RSI says "we have enough money, shut off the money spigot" or they make the real money ships more powerful or cheaper than the in game money equivalent to drive people to buy them.  And coming from the team which is charging a THOUSAND DOLLARS for an in game ship, option A looks a bit unlikely.