Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[Mrbloodworth]

Raph has mentioned in the long ago past they had that in the early alpha or something and it was too problematic.  Having no respawn of mobs meant players destroyed the whole ecosystem within a day.  So they took that out and dropped it.

Imagine that, early design ideas getting tempered during development. That's just crazy I tell you, CRAZY.

"C" especially doesn't make sense if you're talking PVP. How would you steal somebody's ship? Don't most of the backer's have some sort of lifetime insurance on their ships that will replace it if something happens? But the ship isn't destroyed here so if one player gets to keep the ship he stole, and the other player gets a replacement ship then it becomes an easy way to duplicate ships. This kind of thing seems like one of the many potential issues you get when everybody is working on different parts of the game and nobody seems to be thinking about how the game as a whole actually works.

Or, the dear reader doesn't know how theft is proposed to work.

The stolen ship is marked as stolen,  disallowing entry into protected areas ( By force of policing ), and also generating bounty missions, and can only be sold at pirate bases, No insurance claim until its destroyed ( And even then, Hull, Guns, Mods, and Cargo are all different insurances ). Not to mention, even the act of doing a boarding move will require:

Players can dock to other ships and board and capture them, though there are two limitations on docking.

1) The target ship must be completely disabled before it can be boarded.

2) Docking requires the attacking player to dedicate credits and slots to several gate technologies, including a docking collar and a tractor beam.

In Star Citizen, the player needs to knock down the enemy ships’ shields and then (without causing a hull breach) pick off the individual thrusters before being able to dock and board them.

Also note that docking mechanics do not apply to ships with a single crewman or certain smaller bombers; the general rule is that if there’s not room to walk around then only the salvage mechanic can apply to it. You need a crewed ship to board in the first place and you can only board crewed ships which are larger than your own (in crew size.)


Equipment

Tractor Beams are a dangerous technology. They take up a standard gun slot and are designed for collecting material significantly less massive than their host ship (escaped pilots, cargo pallets, bobbleheads, etc.) As such, there’s a constant danger of overloading when using them to dock, especially with cheaper models. Additionally, they require that the target ship be absolutely disabled – firing a tractor beam at a ship that still has functional thrusters will overload it and severely damage the attacker.

A docking collar is needed to attach ships together. As with tractor beams, different levels are available which will allow connections to different sizes of ships; boarding something large like a carrier is much easier than something your own size, like a Constellation (disabling another Constellation's thrusters will require a crack shot, to say the least, and a much more accurate collar.)

Collarless external ship combat will also be added with pilots in pressure suits wearing EMUs able to battle it out in space; explosive charges would be used to open the targeted ship's airlock.

The standard VDU will not identify whether or not a ship is completely disabled; it will have a gut feel/skill element to it. Higher software upgrades will provide more in-depth scans of a target that will give you a better assurance that no maneuvering remains in place for a price.

Combat

Once a ship has successfully tractored in a target vessel, it will dock at a pre-determined location on the hull (ie, you will always dock at one of the same doors on the Constellation.) There will be a 30-second period where the attacking player cuts open the target’s door. The defender can use that time to set up to fire back.

Players will have access to a variety of upgrades to help/hinder boarding operations. Armored space suits, hand scanners, explosives, more powerful (or functionally different) weapons and so on will be available to players on both sides of the equations.

Defending players will have upgrade options that can help put the battle in their favor: a self destruct process, a dead man’s switch, automated miniguns they can position in the cockpit and so on. It’s going to be a challenge to get onboard a targeted ship successfully, one that you’ll need to work with your friends to accomplish.

Finally, the cost to recover a boarded ship will ultimately be high. Since you’ve disabled and otherwise crippled it in battle (and cut into the hull to board) you must conduct repairs in deep space if you wish to keep the hull rather than simply looting it… during which the ship is in danger of being boarded by a third party. Boarding parties should plan to carry an advance repair bot with them or to suffer the difficulty of flying in a depressurized cockpit (limited life support time, less responsive controls.) Finally, only one ship can be flown at once: you will need to work with a partner if you wish to keep a boarded ship and your own craft.

The above is obviously subject to change. But illustrates, Ship theft will not be a simple accomplishment. None of this applies to the smaller ships, multi-crew only.

[Teleku]

The stolen ship is marked as stolen,  disallowing entry into protected areas ( By force of policing ), and also generating bounty missions, and can only be sold at pirate bases, No insurance claim until its destroyed ( And even then, Hull, Guns, Mods, and Cargo are all different insurances ). Not to mention, even the act of doing a boarding move will require:

So, if somebody steals one of these ultra expensive rare ships, gives it to a random account that never logs in again, the original person will never be reimbursed?  Or is there some other mechanic that stops this (I'm only following this at a distance, haven't really bothered looking at the nitty gritty promises yet).

[Goreschach]

The stolen ship is marked as stolen,  disallowing entry into protected areas ( By force of policing ), and also generating bounty missions, and can only be sold at pirate bases, No insurance claim until its destroyed ( And even then, Hull, Guns, Mods, and Cargo are all different insurances ). Not to mention, even the act of doing a boarding move will require:

So, if somebody steals one of these ultra expensive rare ships, gives it to a random account that never logs in again, the original person will never be reimbursed?  Or is there some other mechanic that stops this (I'm only following this at a distance, haven't really bothered looking at the nitty gritty promises yet).

You'll be able to sue the thief for reimbursement. They'll have a Phoenix Wright minigame for it.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm a stealthy, solo player. I find a wrecked ship, i know scavengers will be around soon. I find a crate and put myself in it. I let the scavengers take the crate and put me in their ship. When i'm on their ship, some time later, i get out of the crate. Very quietly, i rummage around and find some goodies i like. I steal those... now i can either - A) Jump out the airlock and call a ride or B) go to their engine room and self destruct their ship or C) quietly hunt and execute the entire staff and take their ship.... or Z) they could have scanned the crate properly before loading it, blasted it with their ship and me with it....

I mean, there's a 0% chance something like this ends up in the game right?

Why? He describes a plan of emergent behavior given the tools at the players disposal, you success will obviously vary, as noted in this statement, and in Teleku 's post. He didn't describe "Press A to hide in crate and board ship **Trigger montage**.

[Mrbloodworth]

The stolen ship is marked as stolen,  disallowing entry into protected areas ( By force of policing ), and also generating bounty missions, and can only be sold at pirate bases, No insurance claim until its destroyed ( And even then, Hull, Guns, Mods, and Cargo are all different insurances ). Not to mention, even the act of doing a boarding move will require:

So, if somebody steals one of these ultra expensive rare ships, gives it to a random account that never logs in again, the original person will never be reimbursed?  Or is there some other mechanic that stops this (I'm only following this at a distance, haven't really bothered looking at the nitty gritty promises yet).

Ships of that size, with out a place to land, do not just "log out". Is my understanding. Subject to change, AFAIK, if you log out in space, and or disconnect, the ship will fly to the nearest port ( Unless you have a friend on board with permissions ). Extrapolate issues with that in a stolen ship. From what I understand, the smallest ship able to participate in boarding of any kind ( And thus subject to theft ) is the constellation ( 4 man ).


EDIT: I did some more digging on this question: Seems I was slightly wrong about the insurance part:

What will you do to combat insurance fraud?

A ship cannot be sold without a legitimate hull id code. Claiming on the insurance policy invalidates the hull code on your previous ship, so if it was captured or stolen the new owner will be unable to sell the ship at a regular ship dealer. Additionally if you have claimed on a policy and someone is flying the stolen ship in a well policed system, the hull id will mark it as a stolen ship, the law will be after you and landing privileges will be denied on any lawful planet. You will be able to fly a “hot” ship to the less savory parts of the Star Citizen universe, where you will probably be able to land and may be able to purchase a fake hull id code, but it will take effort and not necessarily be cheap.

Finally the Advocacy takes insurance fraud very seriously. If it can be proven that a player has colluded with another player to defraud the insurance company, that hull’s lifetime insurance will be invalidated and the player may have to pay a large amount of credits to keep their record clean and not be marked as a wanted criminal.

Extra info relevant to the conversation:

    Lifetime Insurance *
        Replaces your ship hull in the event of destruction or theft.
        Hull is replaced with an identical model in equivalent condition.
        Effective indefinitely with no additional in-game fee.
    Standard Hull Insurance *
        Replaces your ship hull in the event of destruction or theft.
        Hull is replaced with an identical model in equivalent condition.
        Effective for a set period of time: currently one, three or six months.
        Must be renewed with in-game credits once expired.

* Insurance claims may be denied in cases of proven fraud.

Can I use my insurance as an excuse to simply ram other ships to death knowing I will get my ship back?

You can, but this will be a very bad idea as it is inconvenient and time consuming in getting your replacement ship ready to go again. Additionally there will be an increasing delay in replacing your ship every time you make a claim within a certain period of time.

If most of this holds though development, simply put, Ship theft will be a rare, highly specialized ( Required equipment and ships ) activity with some hefty risks involved. No honor among thieves.

[Malakili]

Why? He describes a plan of emergent behavior given the tools at the players disposal, you success will obviously vary, as noted in this statement, and in Teleku 's post. He didn't describe "Press A to hide in crate and board ship **Trigger montage**.

I'm frankly not convinced those "tools" will actually be at a player's disposal.

Here's things that have to be true for those "tools" to be present, as near as I can tell.

1) The ability to hide in crates that are then physically moved on to someone's ship.  

2) The ability to have yourself not show up on the enemy players hud if you are in said crate.

3) The ability to sneak around a ship killing people while there is no alert at all for anyone else on the ship.

4) The ability to have the cargo of a ship accessible to anyone who is on that ship.  Which, when combined with the earlier part about crates being moved around would imply an inventory system unlike anything we've ever seen.


It all just sounds so much like a scene from a movie and not like a game actually plays.  Keywords being game and plays.

I'm not saying it sounds like a cinematic, I'm saying that actually implementing the systems that allow for that kind of experience is 1) probably impossible in the first place and 2) probably going to make for a shitty GAMEPLAY experience if somehow some version of it actually is possible.  I can just imagine how much a playerbase is going to love not being able to realize their entire party is being slowly assassinated by a stowaway, for example.  

You can't just handwave it away with "oh, they never said it will be EASY" to do all that.

[Paelos]

The problem is the information. As soon as somebody is dead, guess what? They type to the other people that they died, or the game indicates it. The jig is up.

That's assuming they can work out crates at all, which sounds like a lot of resources. Blizzard ran into problems with people just keeping items in their bank. Let alone tracking every crate in the galaxy.

[Rendakor]

MBW, that whole process of docking with a ship you descrube sounds both awesome and unlikely to exist in a game.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm frankly not convinced those "tools" will actually be at a player's disposal.

Here's things that have to be true for those "tools" to be present, as near as I can tell.

1) The ability to hide in crates that are then physically moved on to someone's ship.  

2) The ability to have yourself not show up on the enemy players hud if you are in said crate.

3) The ability to sneak around a ship killing people while there is no alert at all for anyone else on the ship.

4) The ability to have the cargo of a ship accessible to anyone who is on that ship.  Which, when combined with the earlier part about crates being moved around would imply an inventory system unlike anything we've ever seen.

1) Not that hard. Initiate action to enter crate, player becomes "contents". Ships already have cells ( As in prison ) in them that resemble stasis chambers or crates ( Not all passengers get comply seats ), as part of the bounty system ( Lethal and non )
2) Not sure how huds work, other than they are helm based, no helm, no hud, but Mobiglass is indeed used to scan yourself and others for conditions. So as others have said, yeah, smarter crews would scan or open first. Then again, maybe they don't have time ( Incoming UEE ).
3) I agree, VOIP would make this imposable most times, at least to not know. Then again, some ships, like the Idris have huge crews and a huge amount of space inside of them. We also do not know if there are any versions of armors that my have stealth tools in them. Many ship scanners and radar systems can be blocked by LOS ( They want you to have the ability to hide on an asteroid Han solo style ), it could very well extend to personal equipment too.
4) That's already how it is. They are ridged physic objects inside the ship, not just a list on XML ( Go go Multi grids ).  They are already effected by say, getting sucked out into space.

Again, is his scenario feasible? Yes, with thees discreet mechanics. Are you likely to succeed? Depends on the player and the situation.

Blizzard ran into problems with people just keeping items in their bank. Let alone tracking every crate in the galaxy.

You can't bank crates/trade goods in this game, they are physical objects. As for DB overhead/issues, we shall see.

MBW, that whole process of docking with a ship you descrube sounds both awesome and unlikely to exist in a game.

Part one has already been shown working at its early stage. Multi-crew ships, and Multi-Phis grids ( A huge accomplishment in itself ). This stuff is still a bit far out, as it needs other core systems in place. Time will tell. Keep in mind,we are seeing the sausage being made, its nowhere near a finished product.

[Job601]

 Is it fun to sit in a crate on the off-chance that someone will load you into their ship?  What can you do, or see, while you are the contents of a crate in a database?  How do you know it's time to get out of the crate?  Is it fun to feel like you have to scan every crate you load on the million to one chance somebody's hiding in there?  People already think it's boring to wait for the guards to walk by in stealth games -- they're going to sit there as contents in a crate for hours?  What happens if your crate is stacked under another crate and you can't get out?  The question we should be asking isn't if it's technically feasible, it's if it will create fun gameplay.  The hiding in a crate scenario frankly sounds tedious.

If the boarding other ships scenario does work as described, somebody out there in space will get really good at it and they will make the game suck for everyone else.  Griefing and "emergent gameplay" go together.

[Mrbloodworth]

The great thing about sandboxes, its up to you as to how you want to spend your time. The best thing about free-form games is the tools, you figure out how to combine then that's fun for you. "if it will create fun gameplay." is not a question you can answer, until you try it. The core tenant of iterative design.

[Merusk]

So it's Eve to the nth degree.

Yes, if it's possible, people WILL wait there forever just to gank the one idiot who pulls them onboard. Or create bots to do it. Never doubt the insane levels internet killers will go to just to ruin someone's day. Go read Slayerik's gank thread in the Eve sub again sometime.

However, as described, the scenario remains bullshit. You don't get to handwave voicecoms, in-game channels or the like. They're a thing and you can control only those being in your game or not. By leaving them out, players will go to out of game sources and bypass all your careful planning.

[Mrbloodworth]

No one hand-waved anything, in fact, they were not mentioned. Again, you are treating an off the cuff scenario, that, while feasible. Is not a direct set in stone feature. Its just a scenario presented based on the back of discrete features. To ping them for not bringing up every possible outcome to an answer to an AMA that ASKED for a lofty goal is, well, that's a level of cynicism all your own, and a boogeyman of your own creation.

Especially one that's kind of a given in ANY game. People use VOIP.

[Draegan]

Is it fun to sit in a crate on the off-chance that someone will load you into their ship?  What can you do, or see, while you are the contents of a crate in a database?  How do you know it's time to get out of the crate?  Is it fun to feel like you have to scan every crate you load on the million to one chance somebody's hiding in there?  People already think it's boring to wait for the guards to walk by in stealth games -- they're going to sit there as contents in a crate for hours?  What happens if your crate is stacked under another crate and you can't get out?  The question we should be asking isn't if it's technically feasible, it's if it will create fun gameplay.  The hiding in a crate scenario frankly sounds tedious.

If the boarding other ships scenario does work as described, somebody out there in space will get really good at it and they will make the game suck for everyone else.  Griefing and "emergent gameplay" go together.

Is it fun? No. Not to me. But there are people out there that probably eat that shit up.

[Goreschach]

Why are we even still talking about this 'sim cargo loading' shit. Nobody is going to play that game.

[Draegan]

Why are we even still talking about this 'sim cargo loading' shit. Nobody is going to play that game.

Assuming its part of the game, I bet you there will be a group of people who do that all day long. How do you not think that assuming the game launches with any amount of success.

[Goreschach]

Why are we even still talking about this 'sim cargo loading' shit. Nobody is going to play that game.

Assuming its part of the game, I bet you there will be a group of people who do that all day long. How do you not think that assuming the game launches with any amount of success.

Yeah, they're called chinese people, and you have to pay them.

[Mrbloodworth]

If the boarding other ships scenario does work as described, somebody out there in space will get really good at it and they will make the game suck for everyone else.  Griefing and "emergent gameplay" go together.

I play Archage, I know that every-time I go into open waters, or a red factions port, my boat can be  ( and has been ) stolen, and destroyed. Was I Griefed?

[Paelos]

Why are we even still talking about this 'sim cargo loading' shit. Nobody is going to play that game.

Assuming its part of the game, I bet you there will be a group of people who do that all day long. How do you not think that assuming the game launches with any amount of success.

Yeah, they're called chinese people, and you have to pay them.

Cottage industries. Like mining in SWG.

[Mrbloodworth]

Why are we even still talking about this 'sim cargo loading' shit. Nobody is going to play that game.

Assuming its part of the game, I bet you there will be a group of people who do that all day long. How do you not think that assuming the game launches with any amount of success.

Yeah, they're called chinese people, and you have to pay them.

Or, enterprising players. Also paid. ( And given a ton of trust, lol )

[Falconeer]

When your boat is destroyed in Archeage you pay a few coins to repair it. How is it in Star Citizen? Is it like EvE, where you lose the whole ship, or like WoW, where you pay a small amount to repair your armour?

[Mrbloodworth]

When your boat is destroyed in Archeage you pay a few coins to repair it. How is it in Star Citizen? Is it like EvE, where you lose the whole ship, or like WoW, where you pay a small amount to repair your armour?

Depends on insurance, no hull insurance, no replacement. Buy another. Have insurance? Get the hull back in a like condition. Mods, cargo, and weaponry are different insurances ( In fact, Cargo insurance is based on Value + Submitted flight plan ).  My AA scenario, is akin to have insurance in SC. I got the ship back, but still had to sink costs in to get it back to snuff ( As in, buying new mods and equipment ).

EDIT: Also, what boat do you have that's only a few coins? Mine costs anywhere around 32g to fix....

And yes, Ship hulls in Star citizen decay and weather over time. Here is a user who took whats already in the client ( but not used in Arena commander ), and speed up the decay.

Star Citizen - Accelerated Weathered Effects Over time - Constellation

[jakonovski]

They should totally charge real money for space ship insurance. 

[Mrbloodworth]

They should totally charge real money for space ship insurance. 

I suppose, in a round about way, that's possible. You are allowed to buy in-game currency up-to a set amount for a time frame. Insurance is paid with in-game credits.

[Rendakor]

So some of these guys who spent hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on internet spaceships can have said ships irrevocably destroyed? The tears will be glorious.

[Mrbloodworth]

So some of these guys who spent hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on internet spaceships can have said ships irrevocably destroyed? The tears will be glorious.

Yes. In fact, some ships, in the Thousands category, Can never dock, and must always be manned.

[Malakili]

I still think the technical issues are really what's in play here.  I don't care if the game is a sandbox and people can be griefed or even if the game is fun.  I just think the situation as described is entirely unlikely to ever actually be possible in the game.  Or, if something in that vein is possible the actual experience of doing it will be entirely like you imagine the thing being that he described.

[Mrbloodworth]

There was a scenario that was tossed out a while back, that if you one and only ship gets destroyed. You would need to find credits to fund your new ride, as you are now likely stuck on that planet/station, opening up the possibility of shopping yourself out as crew, or buying passage, ETC... Because your hangar, is in a physical location in the world somewhere, ALA Eve.  I find that compelling.

[Mrbloodworth]

I still think the technical issues are really what's in play here.  I don't care if the game is a sandbox and people can be griefed or even if the game is fun.  I just think the situation as described is entirely unlikely to ever actually be possible in the game.  Or, if something in that vein is possible the actual experience of doing it will be entirely like you imagine the thing being that he described.

Would definitely put you in the "bad ass" category, and be great for a streams popularity. If the planets aligned, oh so many things to go wrong in that situation, for sure.

[Hoax]

I'm shocked that Star Citizen isn't promising an economy so robust that you can pay your own IRL rent and food costs just by playing Star Citizen if you are smart and savvy enough.

Yet. I'm sure they will if we give them another couple of months.

[lamaros]

Have a look at every game ever made in history MBW. Do they collectively have the proposed features of this game? No.

Why are you so insane.

[Samwise]

Will there be catapults?

What can we put in our catapults?

Beat me to it by two days, you bastard.   

[Malakili]

Will there be catapults?

What can we put in our catapults?

Beat me to it by two days, you bastard.   

It turns out the answer is crates with people in them.

[ezrast]

[Merusk]

I'm shocked that Star Citizen isn't promising an economy so robust that you can pay your own IRL rent and food costs just by playing Star Citizen if you are smart and savvy enough.

Yet. I'm sure they will if we give them another couple of months.

You should ask this question on their forums.