Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[Paelos]

I mean honestly, I defy you to find a rational person who has never heard of this project to come in and tell you it sounds like a great idea to spend $250 on a fictional ship for a game that's not even released.

EDIT: It feels absurd even typing that out.

[Mrbloodworth]

I mean honestly, I defy you to find a rational person who has never heard of this project to come in and tell you it sounds like a great idea to spend $250 on a fictional ship for a game that's not even released.

EDIT: It feels absurd even typing that out.

Its a Pledge. Spend what you want, and what its worth to you. For many, a game created by the guy who basically defined the genre, that may be worth it to them to help see it gets built.  Considering how much money some of you spend on derivative bullshit, I'm not sure why you are complaining about a game you have no internist in.

[Paelos]

No, it's not a pledge, it's in a fucking online store. Do you not see the difference? He is actively selling you a bridge in an online store with a checkout cart just like Amazon.

[schild]

I had a long ass post about this comparing Hex to Star Citizen, but I couldn't take Star Citizen seriously enough to finish the post. I don't know what part of my previous post is opinion. It's pretty much all fact as far as I can tell.

1. Chris Roberts - Yep, actually behind it
2. Space bullshit - Yep, it's space bullshit and attracting the same crowd as Eve - the only reason you wouldn't call that "Space Bullshit" would be due to a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome
3. Not actually a game - Correct
4. The amount of money spent is worthy of ridicule. - $2M went to Hex, which actually has a tangible business plan and future, all that's left is execution. $30M went to this... See number 5
5. There will be no return on investment here. It's the actual definition of "throwing money in a fire." - Fact. How does anyone in Star Citizen expect to see a return? "Fun." You don't invest in "fun," sorry.

Edit: Oh look, more responses. Inventing a genre? WE REALLY GONNA GO DOWN THIS ROUTE? This is basically the easiest thing to refute in the history of gaming. I wish I could tag Raph and Garriott to see what they have to say about this stupid scam.

[Mrbloodworth]

No, it's not a pledge, it's in a fucking online store. Do you not see the difference? He is actively selling you a bridge in an online store with a checkout cart just like Amazon.

Its a Pledge drive, the store is labeled store.

[Rasix]

crowed funding

[schild]

No, it's not a pledge, it's in a fucking online store. Do you not see the difference? He is actively selling you a bridge in an online store with a checkout cart just like Amazon.

Its a Pledge drive, the store is labeled store.

This is one of those cases where you're being such an absurd wretch of a man that I actively want to poke you right in the eye with a fork through the internet.

[Mrbloodworth]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. You guys do what you want though.

[Malakili]

At least those of us who spent too much money on Hex have generally been good humored about it.  Jeez!

[schild]

Bloodworth, I know you haven't yet been on the laser-focused receiving end of shit like this, so I'll spell it out for you.

EVERYONE THAT ISN'T ENAMORED WITH THIS CARTON OF LIES THINKS YOU'RE ALL FUCKING INSANE.

INSANE.

BROKEN AND INSANE.

[schild]

ok ok I've calmed down.

A genuinely serious question:

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

[Miasma]

At least those of us who spent too much money on Hex have generally been good humored about it.  Jeez!

The HEX forum is private, only people who have bought in can post there.  Mark it public and see how many people come in to shit on the people who supported that kickstarter.  "You paid how much for fucking imaginary internet cards in a game that doesn't even exist yet?"

[Mrbloodworth]

All I have done is pledged, and watched.

I think its you guys who are enamored. Visiting other sites and forums, people do not seem to be as obsessed as many here are.

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

Not much ( maybe some credits "saved" on Ship insurance ). But with out the pledge drive, its unlikely to get made, with the freedom of no investors and no publisher can provide.  I Can't speak for others, but I expect no return other than a game I want to play. I knew this when I pledged.

[schild]

At least those of us who spent too much money on Hex have generally been good humored about it.  Jeez!

The HEX forum is private, only people who have bought in can post there.  Mark it public and see how many people come in to shit on the people who supported that kickstarter.  "You paid how much for fucking imaginary internet cards in a game that doesn't even exist yet?"

Once again, no one there is under the illusion that it was a good idea. But the precedent of 20 years of Magic makes the premise tangible.

[schild]

All I have done is pledged, and watched.

I think its you guys who are enamored. Visiting other sites and forums, people do not seem to be as obsessed as many here are.

Answer my previous question.

[Paelos]

The only difference between the crazy is a semi-playable product. I got absolutely roasted for bringing up similar criticisms in the HEX thread. For $250 no less.

[schild]

I just want my relatively simple question answered :( I can answer it for Hex, I want someone to answer it here so that I can understand the thought process.

[Mrbloodworth]

But the precedent of 20 years of Magic makes the premise tangible.

But 27 23 years of some of the best Space Sims made ( And to add, some of the most financially successful titles ever made, that essentially wrote the standard for space sims. ) by the people on this team is null and void? I understand.

[Mrbloodworth]

I just want my relatively simple question answered :( I can answer it for Hex, I want someone to answer it here so that I can understand the thought process.

Not much ( maybe some credits "saved" on Ship insurance ). But with out the pledge drive, its unlikely to get made, with the freedom of no investors and no publisher can provide.  I Can't speak for others, but I expect no return other than a game I want to play. I knew this when I pledged.

[Miasma]

ok ok I've calmed down.

A genuinely serious question:

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

What's the difference between me who has donated hundreds of dollars to f13 over the years and the guy who only registered a couple years ago and hasn't donated a dime?  Nothing but a sense that I helped contribute to something I enjoy and some silly perks like a custom title here and collector's baubles in SC.

It's not about return on investment or anything like that, I've never thought of any video game as an investment, they're all expenses.

[Paelos]

Not much ( maybe some credits "saved" on Ship insurance ). But with out the pledge drive, its unlikely to get made, with the freedom of no investors and no publisher can provide.  I Can't speak for others, but I expect no return other than a game I want to play. I knew this when I pledged.

[Velorath]

All your opinion. Much of that can be applied to any crowed funded game. Time will tell how it turns out.

Most games that get crowd funded don't keep going back to the well to get the same handful of people that funded the game to keep giving out money. This isn't crowd funding at this point, it's the fucking Nigerian Prince scam.

[jakonovski]

Speaking of African royalty...

[schild]

ok ok I've calmed down.

A genuinely serious question:

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

What's the difference between me who has donated hundreds of dollars to f13 over the years and the guy who only registered a couple years ago and hasn't donated a dime?  Nothing but a sense that I helped contribute to something I enjoy and some silly perks like a custom title here and collector's baubles in SC.

It's not about return on investment or anything like that, I've never thought of any video game as an investment, they're all expenses.

I'm going to ignore this response for 2 reasons:

1. I like you.
2. You totally just ignored my actual question, which isn't typically your style. I'll just blame Star Citizen. Or Obama, whatever.

As for the other response - so there's no difference between buying into it now and buying into it later. None, at all. In fact, there's only one major difference. In the likely event that the game never reaches the potential people expect, the people who "pledge" (BUY) into it, have already spent money and it's gone and the people that waited get to popcorn.gif.

Got it.

[Paelos]

Also, they're going to kill that dog, man. Have you no heart?

[Mrbloodworth]

All your opinion. Much of that can be applied to any crowed funded game. Time will tell how it turns out.

Most games that get crowd funded don't keep going back to the well to get the same handful of people that funded the game to keep giving out money. This isn't crowd funding at this point, it's the fucking Nigerian Prince scam.

You know those people voted to keep the pledge going right? Also, The number of "citizens" on the front page has been steadily going up. Its not just old pledges. You are correct though, it is unprecedented.

How much are those pack of Hex cards again? Because, for me, the Magic/Hex/Card games are the most egregious in terms of money. I mean, its right there in the rule system that you have to continually spend money to be competitive, not just to play, but to compete. But you don't see me trolling threads about it. To each his own.

[calapine]

ok ok I've calmed down.

A genuinely serious question:

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

Preamble: I know you didn't accuse me of that but I don't think SC will be the second coming of Christ. As for space shooters go Tie Fighter was a better, more complex game than the Wing Commanders. What I liked about the latter were the (at the time) new heavy story focus and cutscenes between missions. Two reasons (I think) why people are so hyped: 1) Space shooters are a dead genre, almost like turn based strategy games 2) WC has a lot of sentimental value attached. Childhood memories ;)

Your question: Probably (hopefully) not much. 1) There is the free insurance perk, but CR said explicitly that insurance will be priced thusly that it won't be a game changing difference. He likened them to landing fees in the Privateer games. 2) Having the ships right away, instead of to work for them. Don't have a source for this but the 225$ ship is supposed to be worth about 60 gameplay hours if you earn it ingame. Additionally there will be no real-money exclusive ships (or weapon). The exception to that is fluff items...paint jobs, decals, those things.

Edit: 7 replies since I started typing. Oh well, not discarding it.

[Mrbloodworth]

As for the other response - so there's no difference between buying into it now and buying into it later. None, at all. In fact, there's only one major difference. In the likely event that the game never reaches the potential people expect, the people who "pledge" (BUY) into it, have already spent money and it's gone and the people that waited get to popcorn.gif.

This is different than any other pledge drive how? To use the same example, what happens if Hex is a steaming pile of shit, or any other kick-starter for that matter.


All I want is the trolling to stop. But I know F13, once the group think starts, you can't fight the current. I Think everyone knows, including me, 10,000 for a internet space ship is crazy, try talking to those people.

[Margalis]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. You guys do what you want though.

Instead of spamming the thread with endless news about fundraising while laughably claiming that the "game" isn't mostly about fundraising why not post something substantial about the actual "game"?

I accused the game of being mostly about fundraising efforts and your railed against that, but in the meantime every bit of news about the game is just about what new stupid shit they're selling to idiots. Some of you can't even grasp the difference between game info and "here's what's on sale this week" info.

The product here is a store. That's all you or anyone else talks about, that's all the makers of the "game" talk about.

[Mrbloodworth]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. You guys do what you want though.

Instead of spamming the thread with endless news about fundraising while laughably claiming that the "game" isn't mostly about fundraising why not post something substantial about the actual "game"?

I Have, you fucks drown it out. You could, you know, stop trolling a game thread you care nothing about.

[Lantyssa]

For 32 mil, we'll bring in Jennifer Hepler of the Dragon Age 2 fame to write romance NPC that are instanced to every player and capable of playing the role of the player's spouse. Just like The Old Republic Online!

I'm glad my cup was still up to my lips when I read this, else there would have been water all over my keyboard.

[Miasma]

ok ok I've calmed down.

A genuinely serious question:

Let's assume the game comes out and it's the second coming of christ. What's the difference between people who give money to it now and people who just, like, buy into it later?

What's the difference between me who has donated hundreds of dollars to f13 over the years and the guy who only registered a couple years ago and hasn't donated a dime?  Nothing but a sense that I helped contribute to something I enjoy and some silly perks like a custom title here and collector's baubles in SC.

It's not about return on investment or anything like that, I've never thought of any video game as an investment, they're all expenses.

I'm going to ignore this response for 2 reasons:

1. I like you.
2. You totally just ignored my actual question, which isn't typically your style. I'll just blame Star Citizen. Or Obama, whatever.

As for the other response - so there's no difference between buying into it now and buying into it later. None, at all. In fact, there's only one major difference. In the likely event that the game never reaches the potential people expect, the people who "pledge" (BUY) into it, have already spent money and it's gone and the people that waited get to popcorn.gif.

Got it.

I honestly did think I answered your question, it is just in the parallel.

Aside from some minor perks and a few weeks time saved in grinding out money there will be no material difference between myself and someone who buys the game at launch.  People who bought the cheapest package will save real world money by buying it now instead of later.

I only bought the package now because I like space games, I would like a better version of EvE and I would like to support the game.

The only thing I'm going to get if it ever sees the light of day is a little satisfaction from knowing I helped a bit by supporting it.

I donate to f13 because I like the place and the vast majority of the people, there is no tangible real world benefit, it just makes me feel good to support something I like and enjoy.

[schild]

Bloodworth, I have a pile of 4 Magic cards + a half-full binder that I'm probably about to sell for about $4,000 by merely making a single phone call.

That is less than I've put into Magic in the last 5 years put together and I was ranked in the top 50 in Texas in 2012-2013 with nominal playing. I took down 2 $1ks, and top 32'd multiple $5k+ tournaments (and top 16'd 3 of them). I also have an incomplete cube worth about $15,000 (as in, I could sell it right now for $15,000) that I've put about $1,000 into, if that.

Don't talk about what you don't understand. I'm obviously in the minority of Magic players, but I don't see a way to arbitrage the secondary market of a space scam in an efficient way.

The only thing egregious about Magic is that bad players keep spending money instead of making it.

Edit: You posted again:

As for the other response - so there's no difference between buying into it now and buying into it later. None, at all. In fact, there's only one major difference. In the likely event that the game never reaches the potential people expect, the people who "pledge" (BUY) into it, have already spent money and it's gone and the people that waited get to popcorn.gif.

This is different than any other pledge drive how? To use the same example, what happens if Hex is a steaming pile of shit?

All I want is the trolling to stop. But I know F13, once the group think starts, you can't fight the current. I Think everyone knows, including me, 10,000 for a internet space ship is crazy, try talking to those people.

1. This isn't trolling. Trolling is done in an attempt to get a rise out of people. I could give a shit less about that.

2. Hex already isn't a piece of shit. It's better than MODO in every way (which accounts for nearly 30% of WOTCs overall Magic business), even though it currently crashes more often due to server load issues. They asked for a few hundred thousand - which was to be used for marketing. They got multiple millions because what was being offered was WAY too good to pass up. I would drop $2k RIGHT NOW for 4 drafts a week for life in Magic. That's an absurd ABSURD, ABSURD, deal. That's 12 hours of gaming, every single week, in a PROFITABLE system, for both the company and the player. And then we got some infinite amount of packs on top of the 4 drafts a week. Seriously, they fucked up in the Kickstarter and five years from now, they will regret having done it. Well, maybe not regret it, since they basically insured the inevitable demise of MODO should they be able to deliver.

3. It's not different from any pledge drives. Pledge drives are stupid. I don't run a pledge drive. I run a "give me money and f13 stays up another year, things cost dollars, and I don't have dollars for this" drive. Thankfully, last time, we got to pay for our servers for 2 years, which was GREAT. And this year we got a redesign, which we sorely needed. When my wedding is done I actually can't wait to jump in head first on other stuff with it. But Star Citizen, $30M later, they don't actually have anything to show for it except "Oh, now you can get this thing for more money." rinse, repeat.

[Velorath]

How much are those pack of Hex cards again? Because, for me, the Magic/Hex/Card games are the most egregious in terms of money. I mean, its right there in the rule system that you have to continually spend money to be competitive, not just to play, but to compete. But you don't see me trolling threads about it. To each his own.

I played Magic early on when it came out (Unlimited-Fallen Empire). When I quit and sold off my cards I made back probably around 3X what I had paid. My brother who had started playing shortly before me and had a Black Lotus and all the Moxes had an even bigger return on his investment obviously. Hex is a roll of the dice in that respect but the early gameplay looked good. Before the Kickstarter had ended we were able to see Twitch streams of games actually played through to completion. If (and admittedly it's a big if) the game follows a similar path as MTG, it could end up being a fun game to play for a few years but also a decent investment a few years down the road when it's time to cash out. I'm pretty confident that even if game doesn't hit it big, as long as it doesn't tank completely I could at the very least break even or make a small profit off my account.

[Malakili]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. You guys do what you want though.

Instead of spamming the thread with endless news about fundraising while laughably claiming that the "game" isn't mostly about fundraising why not post something substantial about the actual "game"?

I think this is kind of the issue.  If they had stopped after the kickstarter and people were just mulling around excited for this game I don't think people would care.  
But it's the post after post of "now buy this ship" for a game that doesn't exist yet that sets it apart honestly.  

I mean, you can argue that other fundraising campaigns have charged lots for virtual goods that aren't promised, but the fact that they continue to do so DOES make this a different story.  I'm sure people would be buying Hex things if Hex contrinued to sel starter decks or cards with a fancy skin at $10 a pop or something, but CZE isn't selling them, and that is a genuine difference.