So, who won the 3rd gen?

[Murgos]

It may be too early to tell who the final winner is but I think we can make a stab at a discussion.  I'm trying to limit this to talk of third gen MMO's the ones released in the last few years.  Obviously the big winner overall is still WoW and the first gen winner was probably EQ (sorry Raph).  

TERA?  Nope, going down to three servers.
SWToR?  Winner?  Not really, they moved a lot of units and probably still have a lot of players and I may go back at some point since it's free2play but that's hardly winning.
Rift?  No clue what their current population is like but they seem to keep cranking along, so maybe?  Hartsman is good at the long term fix.
The Secret World?  Uh, I hear they have had some sales issues.  But maybe they can pull an Eve and linger on.
Does Aion count as 3rd gen?  If so, maybe them then.  They have had millions of subscribers for several years now and are keep on keeping on.
World of Tanks?  Maybe one of the biggest surprises but not the new champion.
FFXIV?  Laugh.
Star Trek Online? I'm sure they'll be profitable.
GW2?  Too early to tell, it suits me well but I don't see anything there for long term guild level catassing to keep people playing for years and years and years while growing steadily.  But hey, expansions right?
ChampO?  Sorry.
DCUO?  Nah.
WAR?  Chuckle.
AoC?  Is it finished yet?

That's back four years, which is far enough I think for 3rd gen.  So uh?  Aion?  That's the winner MMO of this generation so far?  I don't really know if any other block buster MMO's on the horizon now that GW2 is out that can compete for the overall title.  Am I missing something?

[Falconeer]

I am not sure about the generations, and I will definitely want to say more about it and why, but I definitely think Guild Wars 2 is the winner. Definitely "Best all around MMORPG" of the last five years for me.

[Amaron]

It's hard to say what 3rd gen is since WoW is a moving target.   That said I feel like SWTOR, TSW, and GW2 have at last created some "must have" features that WoW won't copy anytime soon.   GW2 is too early for people to even speak of objectively.

[Shannow]

MMOLG or MMORPG?

If it's the first then it has to be World of Tanks no?

[Malakili]

I want to say Guild Wars 2, but I enjoyed WAR for th eamount of time I've played GW2 so far, so I should probably hold off.  Given that GW2 isn't depending on monthly sub fees for years to make back its dev costs, its probably the winner by default though.  I don't know enough about the Asian scene/numbers to make a good guess at some of these though (especially Aion)

[Murgos]

It's hard to say what 3rd gen is since WoW is a moving target.  

Yeah, that's why I said WoW is the overall winner and introduced a limited time frame (not that 4-5 years is much of a limit), I wanted to discount them from this conversation.  You could make a good argument that it's still the 'best' MMORPG to play, but I wouldn't.

And Shannow, World of Tanks should definitely be in the conversation but someone more familiar with it than I would have to talk it up.

[Falconeer]

Given that GW2 isn't depending on monthly sub fees for years to make back its dev costs, its probably the winner by default though.

Exactly.

Then, of course, GW2 wins on so many other fronts, so many. The business model, for a MMORPG of *this* kind, is one of the most obvious and meaningful. And mind, it doesn't affect me, I have no issues paying 15$ months for games. It affects the genre though, in lots and lots of ways. For example, it is the first big AAA "DIKU" (although GW2 has more than just that) that the fans can't threaten or blackmail or simply kill by canceling their subs (or stating they will).

That said, let's not get sidetracked. I think GW2 deserves the trophy not just for that.

[UnSub]

Wizard101.
LOTRO.

RIFT is the only sub-based MMO I can think of that launched in the last 4 years and hasn't self-destructed. Word is that it was built for US$50m+ and Trion announced they'd already made US$100m back in the first year or so of operation.

So it "wins" if you are only thinking about revenue. RIFT is arguably the best WoW clone there is, but it is still a clone.

But sub-based MMOs are almost all done and even F2P / hybrid titles are shutting down. This MMO arc, running from roughly January 2004 (CCP buys EVE from its publisher and self-publishes through DD) to December 2011 (SWOR launches), was when MMOs rose to mainstream prominence and we're right now in the aftermath of the collapse.

It's also way, way too early to call Guild Wars 2 anything.

[Falconeer]

Just to clarify, I can't see why is it too early to call GW2 anything. If your winner is gonna be picked on revenues, sure. If instead you are gonna cast your vote based on subjective quality factors, the time a dedicated gamer already spent on GW2, possibly beta included, is more than enough.

[UnSub]

Because GW2 just launched.

We rewind this thread to December 2011 and SWOR becomes the main contender.

At the very least we have to get past the first 30 days or so of the F13.net post-launch honeymoon period.

[Lantyssa]

Depends how you qualify 'winner'.

GW2 has the potential to be the undisputed champ, but that's just potential for now.  WoW I consider Second Gen.  RIFT certainly deserves honorable mention.  Though it'll likely go ignored by pundits, I consider FreeRealms an important beginning to the f2p transition.

[Nebu]

While Rift is the most polished while maintaining a more traditional mmo feel, I would have to give the nod to GW2 and TSW.  Both GW2 and TSW contain gaming elements that SHOULD be found in every MMO made after them.  GW2 has done a masterful job of limiting the role of the griefer while simultaneously encouraging social play.  Sadly, the dungeons in GW2 are so poorly balanced that they may undermine this advance.  TSW did a wonderful job with puzzles and the single server feel, but lost points by feeling too much like a single player game. 

GW2 and TSW would be my votes for 3rd Gen only because they have introduced elements that are 'must haves' for me in future MMO's.  They both have their minor flaws though.

[Hawkbit]

Was third gen based on a date, or a features set?  I like Rift, but it doesn't bring much to the table other than the rifts.  So if we're terming WoW 2nd gen, then Rift (and SWTOR) need to be right along with it.  

This begs another question:  Now that GW2 has launched, what AAA MMO titles are left to launch?  Arche Age, if that's major?  If a lot of these games are dying off and in threat of closure, and there's no solid games replacing them, what happens?  Interesting to think on.

[Trippy]

Was third gen based on a date, or a features set?  I like Rift, but it doesn't bring much to the table other than the rifts.  So if we're terming WoW 2nd gen, then Rift (and SWTOR) need to be right along with it.  

The Soul system was much more innovative than Rifts.

[Kageru]

That's a pretty sad list to be honest, so many flawed and fizzled titles. I would separate out World of Tanks as needing some description other than MMOG, also the Asian MMO's which have their own line of descent.

Isn't the secret world basically more evidence that story and character work are best done in a single player game?

So basically the only one of those that seems to be able to make a decent argument for moving the genre forward is GW2, even if it fails. Though if we are measuring by money hats then something needs to steal WoW's revenue stream, and we don't have that yet.

[Murgos]

This begs another question:  Now that GW2 has launched, what AAA MMO titles are left to launch?  Arche Age, if that's major?  If a lot of these games are dying off and in threat of closure, and there's no solid games replacing them, what happens?  Interesting to think on.

Yeah, for a while it seemed like there were MMORPG's slated to appear every few months for forever.  But now?  I can't really think of a big, mainstream, give up all your monies, 'event' mmo on the horizon.  That's part of the reason I felt we could have this discussion now.

Of course, secretly there is Next Blizzard Project and EQIII (or Next) or whatever but if they aren't being discussed publicly then they are at least 2 years out, if not more.

[Murgos]

Though if we are measuring by money hats then something needs to steal WoW's revenue stream, and we don't have that yet.

I'd rather try and keep to a subjective, consensus based (if possible) definition of 'best' because, really, if you go by most objective measures then WoW is still the king.  And having a game that was released in 2003 be the best game in 2012 just seems wrong.  Can you have no 3rd gen after 9 years?  And, if there is a 3rd gen then can 2nd gen really be better than 3rd gen?.  How does that work?

[tazelbain]

I don't really care about generations.  I am just glad we starting move forward rather than just refinement of existing.

[schild]

Minecraft.

But really, no one "wins" in online gaming. There are only bodies.

[Merusk]

People vote with their wallets and their free time.  Lots of GW2 fanboisim going on the board in general when, really, it hasn't struck enough of a nerve outside of this niche group of people who want sandbox games.  Which is a cubed niche of Video Games in general.

Yes, it's far, far too early to call GW2 anything but new.  Give it 6 months, then come back to the question.  If anything I'd also label it as 4th gen.  As games release with new revenue models, GW2 will be the first of this, not the last of the 3rd.

I wouldn't stick WOT in as MMO, they're a subset.  Instanced online single-mechanic experiences with more in common to Counterstrike than your traditional MMO.  You're not crafting in tanks, you shoot and you buy.  That's it.  It's far too focused to be part of the greater idea of what MMOs are considered.

[Hutch]

Though if we are measuring by money hats then something needs to steal WoW's revenue stream, and we don't have that yet.

I'd rather try and keep to a subjective, consensus based (if possible) definition of 'best' because, really, if you go by most objective measures then WoW is still the king.  And having a game that was released in 2003 be the best game in 2012 just seems wrong.  Can you have no 3rd gen after 9 years?  And, if there is a 3rd gen then can 2nd gen really be better than 3rd gen?.  How does that work?

WoW went retail in 2004, but that doesn't affect your point.

I would argue that if you took the 2004 version of WoW, and launched it today, it would have SWTOR-like initial sales, followed by a SWTOR-like loss of subscribers and subsequent descent to irrelevance F2P.

Blizzard has refined and innovated their game for the past 8 years. They've co-opted features from their legions of unpaid UI programmers, as well as features that debut'ed in other games.

So, besides WoW, what is the best game to launch in WoW's wake? Is that the question we're trying to answer here?

[Numtini]

Putting in my vote for Rift, but I think Rift will go through its entire lifecycle without ever getting close to whatever number WoW still has. I'm a GW2 skeptic because I think to keep interest and keep those dollars flowing into the cash shop or whatever, they are going to have to have a PVE end game.

[Rendakor]

I'd give my vote to Rift as well. TSW and SWTOR were both fun, but neither answers the question of "Why do I need to play this with other people?" TSW's dungeons were cool, but "not a lot of trash" is not a huge genre innovation. SWTOR's group dialogue system is another idea that was cool in theory, but wasn't used enough to actually matter if you weren't playing with a static leveling group. Everything else that's come out in the last few years has been shit.

GW2 is still too new for me to call it either way. On one hand I'm having a blast because it's a cool new world for me to explore, the crafting is nice, all the cool kids are playing it, etc. On the other, the character building feels really shallow because I just don't like the skill system they use, and PVP/RVR/WVW endgames don't appeal to me the way a good raiding game does, so I expect I'll play it until MoP or Rift's expansion comes out then migrate away for a while.

[Ingmar]

I don't think anyone won.

[Nebu]

I don't think anyone won.

The state of Rhode Island? 

[palmer_eldritch]

A lot of people here seemed to love SWTOR, Rift and even WAR when they were first released, so I wouldn't declare GW2 the people's choice just yet. Consider also that people who don't like the game probably aren't minded to go on about how much they dislike it at the moment (it bored the hell out of me but why start fights with those of you having a good time).

Couple of random points:

i) We should stop thinking going f2p is a sign of failure. If it brings in more revenue then it's the right business model. Which may be why GW2 is starting out as f2p.
ii) It's not normal for an MMO to sell and retain subs like WoW did. WoW is not the benchmark, it's a freak. Asking when a game is going to beat WoW is like asking when an album is going to beat Thriller. The answer is never ever, but that doesn't mean everything else is an artistic or financial failure.

[Murgos]

i) We should stop thinking going f2p is a sign of failure. If it brings in more revenue then it's the right business model. Which may be why GW2 is starting out as f2p.

Agreed, LotRO is doing quite well, several expansions and a large, active and healthy player base, and has been f2p for quite a while now.  And it's really kind of fun.

[Mrbloodworth]

What was first and second Gen? I need a chart!

[ghost]

What was first and second Gen? I need a chart!

Seriously.  What are the definitions that you're going by? 

And is there a "winner" in the MMO world other than WoW? 

[Stormwaltz]

My opinion:

The first gen was Meridian 59 to Dark Age of Camelot; the creative phase when people were still figuring out how to build these things. Every game played very differently from the others, and had a very different back end architecture -- the similarities between UO and EQ were negligible. (By this criterion I'd argue that EVE is a first gen game that didn't release until after the second gen started.)

The second generation is the polish phase, when middleware tools became common and big publishers started looking at MMGs with dollar signs in their eyes and "just clone WoW" on their lips. This begins around the time of CoH, EVE, and WoW, and saw a lot of expensive, interchangeable titles. In my opinion we're just moving out of this phase now. From here on there will be few of - as Lum once put it - the Big Iron MMGs for a while. With the unsatisfactory performance of SWTOR and TSW (EDIT: and Final Fantasy XIV and Aion) and the collapse of Copernicus, I sincerely hope we can kiss goodbye to budgets over $50 million.

The third generation is most likely going to be that of F2P hobos. Players will drift from one free title to another, never alighting on any one for long. Budgets will be lower, production times shorter, and content smaller. But I hope the lower costs will allow designers to take more risks. A 5-10 period of budget WoW knockoffs would depress the hell out of me.

[Ratman_tf]

I don't think anyone won.

I don't think so either.

I want it to be GW2, but I agree that we have to get over the honeymoon first.
But damn, if it isn't a breath of fresh air in what has been a very stuffy genre lately.

[shiznitz]

Pathfinder will be gold and you all know it! 

[Viin]

And Shannow, World of Tanks should definitely be in the conversation but someone more familiar with it than I would have to talk it up.

If you include World of Tanks, do you also include League of Legends? How about the new Tribes?

As we see a blending of what were individual genres, I think it is going to be very hard to segregate what is an MMO and what's not. That said, any online game with ongoing revenue generation would tend to qualify in my book. (This knocks out games that are just "multiplayer" like TF2, etc).

[Kail]

What was first and second Gen? I need a chart!

I think first gen was "the golden age" and second gen was everything after Trammel.  I tried to find a chart related to Trammel, but I searched the entire internet and there wasn't one.

The problem I see with declaring a "winner" for this generation is that everyone's using a different method of payment.  SWtOR might be (if rumors about it's budget are true) the biggest financial disaster in MMO history, but it's subscriber base is still bigger (as far as I know) than EVE Online.  GW2 is subscriptionless, with a box cost only, DCUO makes it's money off of powersets and cosmetic items, Rift has subscriptions, while TSW has both subs and microtrans but sold really poorly.  How do you even start comparing these things?  Or compare them to stuff like Minecraft or DayZ which seem to have most of the elements of an MMO in place but no real metrics for how well they're doing beyond maybe how much they're talked about.

[Ingmar]

I can't see including WoT. Honestly I still don't really understand why it is in this forum.

And Shannow, World of Tanks should definitely be in the conversation but someone more familiar with it than I would have to talk it up.

If you include World of Tanks, do you also include League of Legends? How about the new Tribes?

As we see a blending of what were individual genres, I think it is going to be very hard to segregate what is an MMO and what's not. That said, any online game with ongoing revenue generation would tend to qualify in my book. (This knocks out games that are just "multiplayer" like TF2, etc).

TF2 has ongoing revenue generation.