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Author Topic: Banned players and hillarity  (Read 16212 times)
Goumindong
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Reply #105 on: September 07, 2012, 02:12:26 AM

You all are missing the god damn point.  It doesn't matter if it's obvious or not. [...] you obviously knew [...]

Just thought this was funny.
kildorn
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Posts: 5014


Reply #106 on: September 07, 2012, 02:47:50 AM

What about if an automated pump at a petrol station was charging you a cent per gallon? Use as much as you want?

I don't think you can hold anyone morally culpable for filling up their tank(s).  The only reasonable, stable situation is one in where the vendor is to blame (or gain) for whatever they set up.

If there is somehow an obligation for the customer to decide whether or not they are dealing with a mistake or 'exploit', I don't see how they can certainly distinguish the cheapest gas station in town from a mistake.

No, you absolutely can hold someone MORALLY culpable for exploiting someone's mistake. What you can't do is hold them LEGALLY culpable.

It's ethically wrong to see a mistake and take advantage of it for personal gain at someone else's expense. If you see "Regular: 4.04, Super 0.08, Premium, 4.15" you can be entirely sure one of those numbers is nonsensical and a mistake. Hell, if you just see that the station across the street is charging four whole dollars a gallon more, you can be 99.999% sure it's a mistake.

Legally, they have to give you the gas at that price. Ethically, you're kind of a douchebag when you roll in with 14,000 gallon cans because of the mistake.

Going overboard exploiting a mistake is not something people naturally do. You do not see the ref isn't looking and stab an opposing player with a knife, that would be dickish in the extreme. We have personal limits on what we consider to be a "harmless" exploit that may vary on a case by case basis. But that does not stop it from being exploiting a mistake when you say, get charged for 3 cans of soup when you clearly have 4 in your bag and choose not to say anything to the cashier about it. Or when you go to a vendor and see something listed for 21 karma when every other vendor selling equal quality and level items next to it are 1,000 karma and in 70 levels of gameplay you've never seen an equippable item listed for less than 250 karma. The question at that point is clear for the player:

Bug report it and move on
Buy yourself the weapons you can use and move on
Buy thousands of the weapons and resell them to vendors for cash

Group A wins the ethics award and goes on with their lives
Group B exploited a bug, but did not get punished
Group C was either temp or permanently banned based on the severity

I have zero problems with making it quite clear to people that the behavior they would prefer is Group A. Just like any store would appreciate when you see $0.08/gallon gas listed on their pump, that you inform the cashier immediately so they can correct it.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #107 on: September 07, 2012, 02:49:18 AM

I purposely used an extreme example; at that price it would be clear that it was not normal and the result of taking the petrol would cost the station owner a significant amount of money.

If you think that's ok then fine. However gw2 is anet's game and there are a lot of people happy with their approach.
Ingmar
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Reply #108 on: September 07, 2012, 03:10:19 AM

I don't understand the whole getting offended on behalf of a bunch of cheating exploiters thing.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
lamaros
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Reply #109 on: September 07, 2012, 03:14:45 AM

I don't understand the whole getting offended on behalf of a bunch of cheating exploiters thing.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I only piped up because AreaNet decided to include the people who had only bought one item in the "cheating exploiters" group. I have no problem with demonising the others.

Expect poison from the standing water.
trias_e
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Reply #110 on: September 07, 2012, 03:17:38 AM

What about if an automated pump at a petrol station was charging you a cent per gallon? Use as much as you want?

I don't think you can hold anyone morally culpable for filling up their tank(s).  The only reasonable, stable situation is one in where the vendor is to blame (or gain) for whatever they set up.

If there is somehow an obligation for the customer to decide whether or not they are dealing with a mistake or 'exploit', I don't see how they can certainly distinguish the cheapest gas station in town from a mistake.

No, you absolutely can hold someone MORALLY culpable for exploiting someone's mistake. What you can't do is hold them LEGALLY culpable.

It's ethically wrong to see a mistake and take advantage of it for personal gain at someone else's expense. If you see "Regular: 4.04, Super 0.08, Premium, 4.15" you can be entirely sure one of those numbers is nonsensical and a mistake. Hell, if you just see that the station across the street is charging four whole dollars a gallon more, you can be 99.999% sure it's a mistake.

Legally, they have to give you the gas at that price. Ethically, you're kind of a douchebag when you roll in with 14,000 gallon cans because of the mistake.

Going overboard exploiting a mistake is not something people naturally do. You do not see the ref isn't looking and stab an opposing player with a knife, that would be dickish in the extreme. We have personal limits on what we consider to be a "harmless" exploit that may vary on a case by case basis. But that does not stop it from being exploiting a mistake when you say, get charged for 3 cans of soup when you clearly have 4 in your bag and choose not to say anything to the cashier about it. Or when you go to a vendor and see something listed for 21 karma when every other vendor selling equal quality and level items next to it are 1,000 karma and in 70 levels of gameplay you've never seen an equippable item listed for less than 250 karma. The question at that point is clear for the player:

Bug report it and move on
Buy yourself the weapons you can use and move on
Buy thousands of the weapons and resell them to vendors for cash

Group A wins the ethics award and goes on with their lives
Group B exploited a bug, but did not get punished
Group C was either temp or permanently banned based on the severity

I have zero problems with making it quite clear to people that the behavior they would prefer is Group A. Just like any store would appreciate when you see $0.08/gallon gas listed on their pump, that you inform the cashier immediately so they can correct it.

Your fundamental assumption is that it is the consumer's job to determine that there was a mistake.  Perhaps, in obvious cases, you may think it clear that there was a mistake.  But I totally disagree.  For example, the price for premium goods may have been brought down below the price for 'average' goods.  How would the consumer know?  Should they just guess, and then decide that based on a certain differential of profit that they are immoral?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 03:27:03 AM by trias_e »
trias_e
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Reply #111 on: September 07, 2012, 03:28:32 AM

I don't understand the whole getting offended on behalf of a bunch of cheating exploiters thing.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Because, for instance, Krip never cheated, and only exploited if you also exploited by farming the most efficient money spot in WoW.
Wasted
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Reply #112 on: September 07, 2012, 03:39:54 AM

No-one gives a shit about those that abused this bug to extreme levels.  Its the way that Anet phrased their reproach that triggered many slippery slope warning signs.  Yes this particular bug on the face of it was pretty obvious but what about those that aren't so obvious in the future?  Am I still going to be labeled a dirty exploiter and possibly banned because a good farming site I found was 'obviously' spawning mobs to quickly, or a certain mob was 'obviously' dropping too much loot or countless other scenario's.
Phred
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Reply #113 on: September 07, 2012, 04:40:15 AM

Yeah I make sure not to harvest anything in overflow because when I get into the realm I can harvest the same nodes over again and don't want to get banned because it is an obvious exploit.  Ten nodes of strawberries instead of five pfft ban them all.

Same thing with events, once I finished a defense event in overflow then got into my realm and the same event was happening.  It was obviously an exploit so I just sat there not doing anything so that I didn't get banned.  Unfortunately an aura I had on got me bronze credit so I was sure to report myself for that exploit and just sat around doing nothing until I estimated I would have earned the illegal 867 xp by questing.  I also deleted the 68 copper and bought a karma item and destroyed it to get rid of the karma I earned.  Apparently that karma vendor was bugged so I got a 72 hour ban anyways, I should have been more careful.

One time, I completed a zone to 100% and instead of all green items I got a gold.  That was obviously an error on our Arenanet lords so I reported myself and deleted the item.  Then I got extra vigilant and decided maybe I wasn't supposed to get green items either so I deleted them too.  Now whenever I get anything higher than blue I just delete them.

This other time, I received a rifle as a drop but get this - I got it off a spider I killed.  Hahahha, spiders obviously don't carry guns around (lol imagine that!) so I deleted the item and reported myself like a good little peon.

Yesterday I did a world event and at the end of a long chain we killed this shaman dude.  Everybody was happy but then this chest appeared - out of thin air mind you - and everybody rushed over to open it.  The chest was almost as big as the shaman himself so it obviously couldn't have been carried around by the shaman.  I reported as many people as I could who looted from this bugged chest but I don't think I got all of those filthy cheaters.

Being able to get full xp off of any mobs other people are fighting with just one hit is also obviously an unintended mechanic (why should I get all that xp for only doing 1% of the damage lol) so I reported the bug and now I don't use 70% of my class abilities because they are all AoE and I fear hitting a mob someone else is fighting and getting credit where none is due.

Holy retarded failing to get the point
Miasma
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Reply #114 on: September 07, 2012, 10:40:58 AM

I was making a point.  You didn't get it.
kildorn
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Reply #115 on: September 07, 2012, 11:58:47 AM


Your fundamental assumption is that it is the consumer's job to determine that there was a mistake.  Perhaps, in obvious cases, you may think it clear that there was a mistake.  But I totally disagree.  For example, the price for premium goods may have been brought down below the price for 'average' goods.  How would the consumer know?  Should they just guess, and then decide that based on a certain differential of profit that they are immoral?


I do in fact make the fundamental assertion that we as customers should have the critical thinking skills required to say "hey, this behaves nothing like I've been told it should behave. I should ask someone why."

If I see a Prius priced at $40,000, then I see a brand new Porsche priced at $10,000, I can employ the critical thinking skills required to say "huh, that's not right", the same as seeing a gallon of milk for 1/10th the price of the ones next to it without a giant SALE sign attached explaining the reason.

The consumer can make an educated guess that something seems wrong, or too good to be true, and inquire with someone who would be in a position to know (the sales staff) to verify the odd information. The immorality comes from recognizing the error and deciding to capitalize on the mistake. That's the "haha, you fucked up, SCORE ONE FOR ME!" mentality that is immoral. Now, it may be entirely encouraged in our economic environment (if this happened on the stock market for example, a company would quickly be out of business due to people pouncing on it), but I tend to hold Humans to a higher ethical standard than Stock Brokers.

Buying one blatantly obviously mispriced $0.01 gallon of milk is exploiting an error. It makes you an exploiter. However, the severity of the punishment is pretty much based on the volume and forethought. Bought 1? You exploited, but it was our mistake. Oh well. Bought 10? Dude, not cool, take a time out. Bought 14,000? Hi, you're the kind of person they'd rather not have in their private shopping community.

In all these cases they were exploiting a bug. Hell, watch the Xcom stream and for whatever reason it gave one side in a multiplayer match two turns in a row. The person simply passed their second turn because taking advantage of the obvious bug would be EXPLOITING and CHEATING. You may take offense at the words, but I'm very sorry to inform you that they're appropriately used. Someone who runs across the street is technically breaking the law. Most of us don't care, but it does mean that calling us lawbreakers in a statement about jaywalking would be accurate.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #116 on: September 07, 2012, 12:20:11 PM

Did anyone we know or even remotely believe and or give a shit about get banned for 'exploiting' one item? I have a feeling the answer is no, but hurf durf.

Tmon
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Reply #117 on: September 07, 2012, 01:48:29 PM

Did anyone we know or even remotely believe and or give a shit about get banned for 'exploiting' one item? I have a feeling the answer is no, but hurf durf.

No but it's more fun to act like that's what happened.
kildorn
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Reply #118 on: September 07, 2012, 02:30:16 PM

The last two pages have made me think I have something broken in my brain because I understand the cashier making a mistake and seek to correct it. Is this not what I'm supposed to do in life?
cmlancas
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Reply #119 on: September 07, 2012, 02:37:30 PM

The last two pages have made me think I have something broken in my brain because I understand the cashier making a mistake and seek to correct it. Is this not what I'm supposed to do in life?

Politics thread >>>> 50 mi.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Miasma
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Reply #120 on: September 07, 2012, 07:21:52 PM

The last two pages have made me think I have something broken in my brain because I understand the cashier making a mistake and seek to correct it. Is this not what I'm supposed to do in life?
Yes, you have something wrong in your brain because that's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about the cashier fucking up, giving you twenty five cents too much change which you didn't notice because only old ladies check that they receive the rights coins, and then she calls you a filthy cheat who tried to short change her.

Is it really that fucking hard to understand?  Nobody in the God damn thread is defending people who knowingly did this.

Again, imagine you unintentionally bought an item that was underpriced and then read what arenanet calls you:
Quote
Please note that anyone who used the exploit has been flagged. If you used it 1 time or 1,000 times, you have cheated items or wealth in your inventory.

You must delete all gold and items gained through the use of the exploit now, or immediately upon the expiration of your suspension, or immediately upon account reinstatement after you have filed a formal appeal and after your account has been reinstated.

If you gained items on a small scale and were not suspended, consider this episode a very firm warning. Delete the items and gold immediately no matter how many or how few.
calapine
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Reply #121 on: September 07, 2012, 07:38:09 PM

Sooo, if Amazon priced a notebook for 10 instead of 1000$ dollar by mistake it would be an "exploit" to say 'great' and order 20 of them? 'Cause that's what I would do.

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
kildorn
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Reply #122 on: September 07, 2012, 07:50:55 PM

The last two pages have made me think I have something broken in my brain because I understand the cashier making a mistake and seek to correct it. Is this not what I'm supposed to do in life?
Yes, you have something wrong in your brain because that's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about the cashier fucking up, giving you twenty five cents too much change which you didn't notice because only old ladies check that they receive the rights coins, and then she calls you a filthy cheat who tried to short change her.

Is it really that fucking hard to understand?  Nobody in the God damn thread is defending people who knowingly did this.

Again, imagine you unintentionally bought an item that was underpriced and then read what arenanet calls you:
Quote
Please note that anyone who used the exploit has been flagged. If you used it 1 time or 1,000 times, you have cheated items or wealth in your inventory.

You must delete all gold and items gained through the use of the exploit now, or immediately upon the expiration of your suspension, or immediately upon account reinstatement after you have filed a formal appeal and after your account has been reinstated.

If you gained items on a small scale and were not suspended, consider this episode a very firm warning. Delete the items and gold immediately no matter how many or how few.

And.. I have no issue with that statement.  If you have those items in your inventory, they were obtained improperly. They should be deleted.

I'm saying there is no punishment being handed out for doing this NON maliciously, just a warning. And that is entirely fucking appropriate.

This isn't "lady gave you 25c too few", it's "I bought 18 bags of groceries and was charged $7." The price was not off by a bit, the items were cheaper than any other item on any karma vendor in the game, to the tune of costing 2% of their appropriate cost. Think about that: the price was wrong by NINETY EIGHT PERCENT. If you can't figure out that the pricing being 98% cheaper than everything else on the vendor for identical items seems wrong, you need to get your head checked.

Which pretty much means everyone who purchased these knowingly did so with the wrong price attached. And happily walked away with their shiny new item and wasn't punished in any way beyond a stern letter that makes UN stern letters seem mean.


I think the entire disconnect in this thread is a giant gulf of what is appropriate behavior from people. When something is blatantly obviously mispriced (not 5% off the equivalent item next to it, but 95% off of the equivalent item next to it) it's pretty hard to say "how should I have known!", and it's very hard to say "hey, how DARE you give me a minor warning that I shouldn't exploit obvious bugs!" without seeming like your end goal is to provide a framework that you should indeed be allowed to exploit bugs without punishment. Exploiting bug = bad. End of story. This would only be a bad thing for ANet if they were banning people for using the bug once with some stupid zero tolerance rule. Instead what they're doing seems entirely reasonable. The only appropriate action when you discover a bug is to report it.

and Calapine: yes, if Amazon priced a brand new laptop computer at $10, it would be exploiting their error to buy it. It's kind of one of the the definitions of the word. The context in which it's being used is: "to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends"

When you buy that mispriced item for $10 when it's supposed to be $1000, you're costing SOMEONE $990 for your own personal gain. That's the unethical part. It's entirely legal (they listed it, they have to sell it, at least in the US), but it's decidedly 100% unethical.
calapine
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Reply #123 on: September 07, 2012, 07:58:28 PM

Well, we clearly have different opions about exploit. For me examples of exploits are: using Hacks, usings bots/macros if forbidden, duping items, using game mechanics in a way that is explicitly forbidden (eg. it's stated you mustn't attack melee mobs from a location they cant reach you. If not forbidden I'd list that under creative use of mechanics).

I'd personally never cheat in a multilayer game, a) out of fairness b) would not risk a ban. But, if there was a situation like you descibed: A vendor selling an item extremly cheap, I'd buy tons of it, and neither would I feel "guilty" nor would I expect to be banned for this.

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
Ingmar
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Reply #124 on: September 07, 2012, 08:20:57 PM

"Creative use of mechanics" is exactly the same thing as an exploit. Exploit to me always carries the hidden modifier of "a loophole". Buying all those items is exploiting a loophole. It's just what the word means.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Minvaren
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Reply #125 on: September 07, 2012, 08:26:35 PM

They should roll back all transactions on that item at that price if it's such a big deal.

They claim to have the logs, just do it and be done with it.  It was their pricing error, let them fix it to teach their QA people how NOT to do things in the future.  Insulting people for buying one item is pointless.

(edit: caps, wharrrrgarbl)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 08:31:45 PM by Minvaren »

"There are many things of which a wise man might wish to remain ignorant." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ingmar
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Reply #126 on: September 07, 2012, 08:35:43 PM

Yeah I don't know why they didn't just do that in the first place, the 'just delete the items guys' thing is the part that strikes me as unprofessional. I guess it means they can't actually do that kind of mass rollback, which, yikes.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
calapine
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Reply #127 on: September 07, 2012, 08:36:43 PM

Well, the dictionary meaning of exploit gives:

"to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers." which doesn't make any sense in a computer-game context. (A guildleader could exploit the guildmembers, but that's nothing bannable.) IMHO exploit regarding games has a similar meaning to 'illegal' in real life. Something breaking the law / EULA. Of course there is a grey area, but it has to be clear to the player. Example: A broken buy-back feature that gives you back the item you sold, but doesn't deduct the funds received. Pretty easy to guess that's a bug.

Actual example: Bug in Fusang (TSW) that lead to everyone being rewarded twice as much tokens on capturing a facility for a few days. Should players that made sure to PVP extensively during that time be banned? What about players (like me) that didn't even notice the rewards were off?

Edit (didn't see replies): Yes, a rollback would be fair. Both in GW2 and the TSW example I just listed.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 08:41:06 PM by calapine »

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!
proudft
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Reply #128 on: September 07, 2012, 08:39:55 PM

Yeah I don't know why they didn't just do that in the first place, the 'just delete the items guys' thing is the part that strikes me as unprofessional. I guess it means they can't actually do that kind of mass rollback, which, yikes.

It came off to me as more of a "you know what you did, you fix it" decree rather than something that is technically not feasible for them.
Ingmar
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Reply #129 on: September 07, 2012, 08:41:23 PM

Re: the TSW thing, I think there's a big difference in player culpability between a bug that happens as a result of normal gameplay, where you'd have to actually not play the game to avoid it, and one that only comes into play when you take a specific action, from a specific merchant, etc., as the GW2 one did.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Wasted
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Reply #130 on: September 07, 2012, 08:49:34 PM


When you buy that mispriced item for $10 when it's supposed to be $1000, you're costing SOMEONE $990 for your own personal gain. That's the unethical part. It's entirely legal (they listed it, they have to sell it, at least in the US), but it's decidedly 100% unethical.

There is a reason these laws exist.  Its because customers have to be able to trust that an advertised price is real.  The obligation is on retailers to double check their prices or suffer for their lax practices.  Similarly players should be able to expect that the variables the game presents are real.

But the example is getting stupid, anyone that thinks its unethical to cost a npc vendor thousands of karma is way too deep in their role-playing.
Genev
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Reply #131 on: September 07, 2012, 08:57:55 PM

The problem with the removal of the items is that the people dont Have those items anymore, except for the people who bought them to use them, only boguht a few of them or so

Everybody else turned those weapons into mats, into other stuff using the forge, i don't even know all the things that are possible.... So it's not just "delete these identities from accounts" it's slightly more complicated than that. Issuing a rollback would affect much more than the specific items, regardless of how careful they'd go about it tbh.
So you want to screw everybody over because a few (well, a few thousand) people were greedy assholes?
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #132 on: September 07, 2012, 09:11:44 PM

I hate this thread, everything after the funny reddit part.  One of the funding drive levels should be the ability to nuke a thread from orbit.  I'll give another $50 on top of the $75 I already gave if any mod dens this pig.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 09:13:24 PM by Miasma »
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


WWW
Reply #133 on: September 07, 2012, 10:26:46 PM

I hope everyone heavily into the hurf of the durf has deleted the game from their hd. Because this is the dumbest complaining I've seen in a year of dumb complaints around here.

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