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Topic: Blizzard's Community Relations (Read 81487 times)
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Miasma
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5283
Stopgap Measure
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That thread is almost 300 pages long in under two hours.
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statisticalfool
Terracotta Army
Posts: 159
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I think #4 is kind of best to me. (and a lot of the poll seems to be going there and #1, which I admit, has its own appeal)
#2 just introduces the "kite the monster for X time while you wait for your MF gear to work"
Three minutes seems long enough that you'd avoid kiting (because that's long enough to hit another pack easy), and it's also pretty clean as a mechanic. Swap gear, lose your MF. The end.
And honestly? How often do 60s find upgrades on the ground?
I think #5 (lose NV stacks) is just there because so many people have mentioned it, and just to acknowledge that that bad idea is there.
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Mrbloodworth
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15148
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Indeed. The AH is the biggest thing to consider; the impact it has on the whole game and how you would design the whole game, is monstrous.
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Tarami
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1980
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Jesus, it's getting old.
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- I'm giving you this one for free. - Nothing's free in the waterworld.
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Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678
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I think #4 is kind of best to me. (and a lot of the poll seems to be going there and #1, which I admit, has its own appeal)
#2 just introduces the "kite the monster for X time while you wait for your MF gear to work"
Yeah, you won me over, I think #4 wins.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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#4 seems the most logical, which means they will probably cap it and piss everyone off.
This is an example for me that falls under "stupid shit that is not fun, but gives an advantage" mechanics. Those shouldn't be encouraged. Yet again, however, it points out that their difficulty curve / itemization isn't close to right.
I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678
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I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.
I would play the hell out of that. Though I don't see why achievements and linking and such would be out, unless you mean literally that the game would be in offline mode. Be cool if I could have a private "world" with just me and my couple of friends that I play with, with no items coming from the outside world. But that's probably getting a little too weird.
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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Torchlight 2 can come out any fucking millennium now.
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596
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Be cool if I could have a private "world" with just me and my couple of friends that I play with, with no items coming from the outside world. But that's probably getting a little too weird.
Just agree with them to do it?
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Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678
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Just agree with them to do it?
Well, yeah, there's that. :) Seriously, though, there definitely is an effect from having an option available to you, even if you decide not to use it. Using that same logic, you don't actually need there to be a hardcore mode built into the game. Now, I agree that the weird multiplayer-limited thing I was babbling about is probably a little too complex a concept to build into a game mode, but I'm not sure the "single-player" mode is.
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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I tried to login to reply, "cap it! ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:
"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition: This game license has expired or been cancelled."
henh? oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.
Check what you're logged in as. If you're using one of your old WOW characters as your avatar you'll get that error. Make sure you've got D3 chosen. Someone here let me know that during beta.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025
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I tried to login to reply, "cap it! ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:
"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition: This game license has expired or been cancelled."
henh? oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.
I had that too. You are trying to use a WoW character account without it being active. Use the switch character panel to select a D3 char and you can post fine.
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Typhon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2493
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Thanks Merusk and Phred! (was using WoW char)
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Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025
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#4 seems the most logical, which means they will probably cap it and piss everyone off.
This is an example for me that falls under "stupid shit that is not fun, but gives an advantage" mechanics. Those shouldn't be encouraged. Yet again, however, it points out that their difficulty curve / itemization isn't close to right.
I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.
How about number 6. Stop trying to force us to play the way you want us to?
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Sure thing. You just defend gear swapping as fun game play that would exist without the magic find incentive, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, its stupid and needs to go.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Magic find was always kind of retarded anyway.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Magic find was always kind of retarded anyway.
Agreed. I would remove the stat, but i think there is a legit point for some finding it fun
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Tebonas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6365
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Not as fun as raising drop rates across the board and be done with that stat, I presume.
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Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025
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Sure thing. You just defend gear swapping as fun game play that would exist without the magic find incentive, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, its stupid and needs to go.
How about I define gear swapping as retardedly anal and you defend retardedly anal play as fun play and I'll agree with you? I, unlike you, don't care if these morons switch gear in and out and wish they'd stop bitching about the "need" to do it. You on the other hand appear to side with the retards.
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 08:40:16 AM by Phred »
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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You think if you did not care you would just ignore it. Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596
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Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.
Every game in the world has wonky optimizations you can do if you really care about that sort of thing. It just doesn't seem to me to be worth a lot of effort when it isn't game breaking in any way.
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Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025
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You think if you did not care you would just ignore it. Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.
I'd love to ignore it but these nerfs are overbroad and affect the way I like to play. Like the container nerf. Currently when I play I run about 100mf and don't swap but some of the suggestions to improve things for the anal poopsockers would negatively effect my experience.
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:59:52 AM by Phred »
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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I am against the container Nerf. Its too broad and the Mf cap is broad. The 3m thing is not. If they go that way it will be fine
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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waffel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 711
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anal poop  I find it a tad bit sad that they're spending so much time on this. A blog with multiple ideas? Asking the community for their opinion? There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on. And honestly, how did they not have the foresight to see this coming? Finding high MF on gear that is also high in useful stats is rare. High MF causes higher quality loot to drop. Farming higher quality loot is what this game is all about. It isn't a huge leap to think "Hmm, players are probably just going to swap in high MF gear right before the final blow" The lack of foresight with this game is astonishing, especially considering they had a fucking template to look back on in D2. Now we have the community divided over a stupid fucking 'issue'
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 11:14:21 AM by waffel »
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Lightstalker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 306
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So much for optimizing your gear for specific damage types and playstyles to tackle different classes of opponent (Gear or Weapon Swap). Ok, I know D3 isn't exactly quite the same game as D1 in that respect where you'd need a particular damage type to get through the immunities, but that's where gear swaps play. Of course, the stupid NV drop also kills the incentive to skill swap to handle specific encounters as well. It is like they forgot why they were putting a pile of damage and resistance types into the game. The dislike of swapping (skills or gear) pushes the game towards "One Set To Rule Them All" character and gear design and that's just dumb in this kind of game.
MF and GF was harmless in a world where my behavior has limited repurcussions on other players. Via the AH this is mitigated somewhat. What they should really do it put back the 10k gold limit per inventory slot (100k? whatever) and force folks to drop that gold on the ground at the start of their run. An actual opportunity cost for hording cash would nip a lot of this in the bud and we'd be back to a more robust SoJ based economy in no time.
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on.
I seriously doubt it.
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Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678
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I am against the container Nerf. Its too broad and the Mf cap is broad. The 3m thing is not. If they go that way it will be fine
Yeah, I agree, and very much agree that the MF cap is fundamentally different than some of the other changes. If you don't gear swap (as I myself do not), a couple of those changes will not have any real effect on you.
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Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025
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There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on.
I seriously doubt it. Ya it's not like they could poll about how to make the game more fun or anything like that.
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Ice Cream Emperor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 654
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And honestly, how did they not have the foresight to see this coming? Especially since I remember doing this in Diablo 2, though only with those two high MF weapons that you could swap in for your barb for the last part of boss fights.
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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Ya it's not like they could poll about how to make the game more fun or anything like that.
"How to make Diablo 3 more fun" or alternatively "Why Diablo 3 isn't fun and how to make it fun" compromises 90% of discussion on both this sub-forum and the official forums. I get the impression that the Blizzard CMs probably have a pretty good idea of what long-term changes players who visit the forums want to see at this point, assuming they have checked the forums once or twice since Diablo 3 released. "How to make the game more fun" also isn't as well-suited to a poll because many changes they could make would be months (if not years) out and players aren't expecting only one outcome from the available options. They might want every change listed in the poll. The Magic-Find changes are simple mechanical changes compared to something like "Add new sets and uniques to Normal-Hell", "Make uniques more interesting", or "Add more randomized end-game content". Asking the community what MF changes they'd prefer out of a very specific list seems like a great idea for a poll/discussion, and a perfect use of CM's time. Speaking of CMs... We recognize that the item hunt is just not enough for a long-term sustainable end-game. There are still tons of people playing every day and week, and playing a lot, but eventually they're going to run out of stuff to do (if they haven't already). Killing enemies and finding items is a lot of fun, and we think we have a lot of the systems surrounding that right, or at least on the right path with a few corrections and tweaks. But honestly Diablo III is not World of Warcraft. We aren't going to be able to pump out tons of new systems and content every couple months. There needs to be something else that keeps people engaged, and we know it's not there right now.
We're working toward 1.0.4, which we're really trying to pack with as many fixes and changes we can to help you guys out (and we'll have a bunch of articles posted with all the details as we get closer), and we're of course working on 1.1 with PvP arenas. I think both those patches will do a lot to give people things to do, and get them excited about playing, but they're not going to be a real end-game solution, at least not what we would expect out of a proper end-game. We have some ideas for progression systems, but honestly it's a huge feature if we want to try to do it right, and not something we could envision being possible until well after 1.1 which it itself still a ways out.
Thank you very much for this informative and honest answer. Though to be honest what this answer really reveals is "we didn't have a real end game ready or in mind and aren't sure how to retain customers, the game was released before it was quite ready, possibly because of the giant outcry from the fans"
Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose, but we believed pre-release that the item hunt would be far more sustainable, and would work to be a proper end-game for quite a while. That didn't turn out to be true, and we recognize that. I appreciate the truthful answer but this is really not the sort of thing a CM should be saying in public. There are already articles popping up with headlines like "Blizzard Admits There's Not Enough Content in Diablo 3". Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates. 
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waffel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 711
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Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates.  Really? It allmost seems like they might have pulled some WoW devs off WoW to work on another Blizzard product that just released.... hmm....
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Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
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Or maybe all the WoW devs are working on MoP 
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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I appreciate the truthful answer but this is really not the sort of thing a CM should be saying in public. There are already articles popping up with headlines like "Blizzard Admits There's Not Enough Content in Diablo 3". Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates.  I disagree. It's EXACTLY the thing I'd want to see from my CMs. What these companies need to learn is that telling the truth doesn't hurt you in the long run. Insulting the intelligence of your fans and leaving them in the complete dark on your direction does hurt your company. What exactly does that do if Bashiok says that? For one thing, it vindicates the detractors to a degree, and admits that they made mistakes with the projects. Honestly, there is almost nobody in the D3 community that didn't already believe this game has been mismanaged and seems rudderless. Telling them what they already know does nothing except make the customers feel more involved in your commitment to fix the issues. Trying to pretend there are no issues or saying nothing gets you into the boat of Bioware with the ME3 ending.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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It may discourage other people from buying the game. Though it's already sold millions of copies, headlines that make it seem like even Blizzard thinks Diablo 3 didn't have enough content could turn people off who were otherwise planning on buying it. Blizzard games usually continue to sell well long after their release month, so it's a consequence worth considering.
More important to the discussion: in this case what I think it does is add more fuel to the fire of complaints. Now complainers have been vindicated by Blizzard itself. It's no longer a debate about whether the game launched with enough content, working itemization, or balanced difficulties: there answer straight from the source is that it didn't. What good comes from saying this now when the changes people want to see are realistically 1-2 years away given the speed your company moves?
Similarly, in Bioware's situation, if they came out and said "We agree our ending was awful, our bad." but did not announce any concrete plans to change it, would that really have silenced players asking for a changes or would it just have encouraged them to continue asking?
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Admitting there's a problem is the hardest step in anything. It gets the gears turning in the direction to fix it instead of simply ignoring the issue.
It's one of the things they didn't do with Cataclysm until it was BEYOND too late. I think there's no downside to their sales because the forums and websites are already beating them to death. If the people out there are ignoring the media/talk about the game, then Blizzard saying anything doesn't affect the sales. What it does do is place an importance on Blizzard delivering a patch and then spurring sales. It creates a situation where people that were unlikely to buy the game because they heard so many bad things, now look to buy the game when and if Blizzard dishes out the fixes.
Also, admitting fault doesn't add more fuel to the fire. Speculation is always what adds fuel to fire. The unknown adds fuel to the fire. Truth about the process just stops arguments about what the company does and doesn't "get" about their game.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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