Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 08, 2019, 03:59:00 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Shop: Amazon
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Diablo 3  |  Topic: Finding Legendary (And Set) Items 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Finding Legendary (And Set) Items  (Read 13844 times)
Salamok
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2731


Reply #70 on: July 09, 2012, 12:15:18 PM

That (again) is a carry over from vanilla D2. The highest dps weapons possible were blues because rares couldn't roll the maximum modifier for certain mods including damage.  Seems like they wanted the same aspect here where blues rolled perfectly were better than average yellows.

That plus what is the friggen point of a yellow that only has a damage modifier attrib and nothing else.
statisticalfool
Terracotta Army
Posts: 159


Reply #71 on: July 09, 2012, 12:47:47 PM

Right. The difference is that everything scales off weapon damage, so perfectly rolled damage weapons are better than everything.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #72 on: July 09, 2012, 12:57:40 PM

That (again) is a carry over from vanilla D2. The highest dps weapons possible were blues because rares couldn't roll the maximum modifier for certain mods including damage.  Seems like they wanted the same aspect here where blues rolled perfectly were better than average yellows.

Not just vanilla D2.  I must've rerolled Colossus blades hundreds of times going for a good "Cruel" role for my Barbarian in LoD - even after the expansion they could roll better damage than the well itemized uniques.

The real problem is that a lot of the unique/set weapons aren't just a little worse, they are a LOT worse.  While the top end items are out of sight, even merely above average rolled weapons end up being better than most of the uniques.

I'm actually more or less fine with it being like this at the very top end, it makes rare/magic drops continue to be interesting even if you have lots of uniques/sets.  But that isn't what is going on here - what is going on is terrible itemization on the huge majority of these items to the point where they are almost never better.  And that is just silly.
Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652


Reply #73 on: July 09, 2012, 01:08:51 PM

It's like they itemized unique and set weapons before they decided to make weapon DPS far-and-away the most important stat.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #74 on: July 09, 2012, 01:16:07 PM

They've said several times they deliberately made rares better than uniques so that gearing at cap wasn't a matter of everyone chasing the exact same uniques.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
01101010
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10989

You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #75 on: July 09, 2012, 01:21:16 PM

They've said several times they deliberately made rares better than uniques so that gearing at cap wasn't a matter of everyone chasing the exact same uniques.

Just the exact same stats.  Ohhhhh, I see.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
statisticalfool
Terracotta Army
Posts: 159


Reply #76 on: July 09, 2012, 03:09:51 PM

They've said several times they deliberately made rares better than uniques so that gearing at cap wasn't a matter of everyone chasing the exact same uniques.

I mean, this is fine and all. But it's a matter of degree. I think, at least a few weeks ago, that Stormshield was considered the second best tank shield, behind a well-rolled Sacred Shield? That feels about right.

I think the idea that Legendaries/Uniques are a sort of "add this cool effect, but sacrifice raw power" feels fine. But for weapons especially, legendaries/uniques aren't even in the running for useful.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #77 on: July 09, 2012, 03:27:23 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the choice - just pointing out that the several posts conjecturing that it was an accident or a matter of what order they designed things in were barking up the wrong tree.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678


Reply #78 on: July 09, 2012, 03:42:26 PM

I dunno, I think the above comment about the uniques being itemized before weapon dps was made godly (or maybe without realizing how good weapon dps was, which seems inconceivable) seems accurate to me.  Or at least it definitely feels like that, even accounting for the fact that they intended near-perfectly rolled rares to be the best items ever.  As Malakili said, it isn't that the uniques aren't the best weapons, it's that they aren't even good weapons.  Even if you aren't using the AH at all, you'd have to have really good luck with finding unique weapons and extremely bad luck finding rare weapons to EVER find a unique weapon worth equipping.  That's so incredibly stupid that it forces you to think there's got to be some sort of explanation as to how that got put into the game other than just choosing numbers badly.

I also think it would be fine if the ideal weapon was a perfectly rolled, once-in-a-blue-moon rare.  But clearly if you're looking at character that's only used the AH occasionally and hasn't been in Inferno for a hundred hours, it should certainly be the case that if a legendary weapon drops that is right for their class, it is frequently going to be a significant upgrade, and, failing that, a minor upgrade or utility-based sidegrade, and on some rare occasions not useful at all.  Sure, eventually you may outgrow them, but for the average player they should be things to get excited about.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 09:38:23 PM by Abelian75 »
statisticalfool
Terracotta Army
Posts: 159


Reply #79 on: July 09, 2012, 07:45:59 PM

They changed the whole itemization system several months before release.

I think that explains just about everything.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #80 on: October 05, 2012, 10:25:21 PM

So, I finally beat Inferno today (after taking a couple months off from the game until this week).  I can say that I have found 0 end game uniques or sets having played through this far.  I have 2 of them (found by friends).   I have found roughly 4-5 legendaries as of today, but they are ranging from level 30-50s and are basically useless.  All I can say is that I am glad 1.0.5 is upping the drop rates!

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 12:57:52 PM by Malakili »
Xanthippe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4778


Reply #81 on: October 06, 2012, 12:38:03 PM

So, I finally beat Inferno today (after taking a couple months off from the game until this week).  I can say that I have found 0 end game uniques or sets having played through this far.  I have 2 of them (found by friends).   I have found roughly 4-5 legendaries today, but they are ranging from level 30-50s and are basically useless.  All I can say is that I am glad 1.0.5 is upping the drop rates!

Wow. That is even more broken than I imagined.
Ragnoros
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1015


Reply #82 on: October 11, 2012, 07:57:13 PM

Seeing as this was recently bumped: have a nice dissertation length examination of the drop mechanics and odds in Diablo 3. Warning: It is long, but awesome.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

Things of note: Chance of a Legendary/Set is 1-in-2000. For comparison, clearing out act 3 gives about 500 drops. Putting that into prospective, sitting at around 200mf with NV bumps you up to about a 50% shot at a legendary after 500 drops. Which jives with my experience of an orange drop every couple runs or so.

Edit: Here is the conclusion, which mostly deals with rares.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 08:14:10 PM by Ragnoros »

Owls are an example of evolution showing off. -Shannow

BattleTag - Ray#1555
Tebonas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5958


Reply #83 on: October 12, 2012, 01:29:10 AM

1 in 2000? These are not video game probabilities, that is a slot machine.
Mosesandstick
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2349


Reply #84 on: October 12, 2012, 02:05:54 AM

You've clearly never played Diablo 2  awesome, for real. The drop chance for higher level runes was unbelievably small.
Tebonas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5958


Reply #85 on: October 12, 2012, 02:08:59 AM

Which were a small subset of the overall loot. This is for ALL Legendary items...
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #86 on: October 12, 2012, 07:10:00 AM

The other problem here is that we are talking about farming Act 3.  While that is the norm now, the fact is that most people quit the game LONG before they got there because they were discouraged with the loot they got.   At launch the itemization was god awful, but by the time 1.0.4 came out and fixed it, I think most of the people here had already quit.  Furthermore, a full Inferno clear of Act 3 is not something most people can do in an hour, even the people who CAN do the content, you're talking about a relatively small segment of the population who can get anywhere near that. I've done a LOT of runs - farming Act 1 to get to Act 2 level loot, farming Act 2 to get to Act 3. I did FINALLY get one legendary earlier this week (turned out to be a decent monk helm).

The reason Diablo 2 worked is because it gave pretty much everyone a reasonable shot at some decent end game loot by the time they got towards the end of nightmare.   There really isn't an equivalent to that in Diablo right now.  Yes, the chances were small, but the end game loot progression felt very different.  Even chances of uniques/legendaries/sets aside,   you didn't have to farm for bad loot/money to buy bad loot, so you could upgrade to be able to farm for slightly better loot, so then you could farm for the REAL end game loot.   It is that process that I think turned people away from Diablo 3.  I really feel that it isn't just about drop rates and math, it is about the way it FEELS to progress through Diablo 3's end game that got people frustrated enough to put the game down.  We all remember the tiny drop chances on truly exceptional loot in Diablo 2, but it felt possible on every run that it could be THE run where it happens.  Diablo 3 doesn't capture that feeling at the moment unless you are a very high end player.

Luckily, I do genuinely think that patch 1.0.5 is addressing this issue by nerfing Inferno and upping drop rates. 
Salamok
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2731


Reply #87 on: October 12, 2012, 09:56:04 AM

The slot machine is more like a lottery ticket, I am actually fine with a 1 in 2000 chance of a legendary or set drop, it is the 90% chance that the legendary or set that dropped will suck ass that I have issues with.  I've probably found 25 or so legendary or set items, out of those 25 only 1 was "omfg i'm rich bitch!" and maybe another 3 were worth a few million, the rest all ended up as brimstone.  Part of this is my fault as I farmed act 1 for too long but even in act 3 most of the legendaries I have found have been unsellable.  Much of the blame also lies in the whole "arms race" thing that gear has become, I scrap unsellable shit now that I would have considered godly 3 months ago.

I still think there is some voodoo elite gamer wankery going on with the loot system.  For example if I am having a bad run with many deaths I can pretty much count on resplendent chests dropping only blues.  If I am having a good run and no deaths the resplendent chests always seem to have rares and occasionally have legendaries.  Also the drops are so streaky as to be almost dependable, if I get through 1/3 of my act 3 run and the drops are fewer and lower item level I have gotten to the point where I just ditch the run and start over.  On the flip side if I get a set or legendary drop I farm the crap out of that game.  I would also not be surprised at all if there was a bug or some over compensating inferno nerf of treasure shrines, I have gotten to the point where I refuse to click on them as the thousands of times I have clicked on them immediately resulted in the next elite pack dropping as few yellows as possible.

I'm probably showing some serious tinfoil hat here but I can totally see Jay Wilson checking my death count for the game upon opening a resplendent chest and saying fuck that loser no loot for you.
ezrast
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2060


WWW
Reply #88 on: October 12, 2012, 11:05:40 AM

Honestly, I don't think the real problems with the game have anything to do with drop rates or the auction house. The game just isn't that fun. Playing it feels like a slog. Combat isn't as mobile and dynamic as it should be. Quests get in the way. The storyline gets in the way. The tag-along characters get in the way. Being crowd-controlled is annoying. Items are boring. If every time you booted up the game, 2 joyous hours slipped by without you noticing like they did in D2, the epeen rewards, or lack thereof, wouldn't be nearly the factor they are.

But maybe I'm just weird. I never understood why so many people here keep saying "ARPGs are about the loot." Loot is an afterthought in my view. ARPGs are about left-clicking on things.
Salamok
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2731


Reply #89 on: October 12, 2012, 11:12:28 AM

Yes getting vortexed into a freeze then desecrated and jailed is pretty unfun.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #90 on: October 12, 2012, 11:13:16 AM

I think Diablo 3's combat is fine actually and it is definitely the thing that has kept me playing regularly in spite of the fact that my luck has been so poor.  How far did you get ezrast?
ezrast
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2060


WWW
Reply #91 on: October 12, 2012, 11:51:50 AM

Monk and Witch Doctor into Act 1 Inferno, Wizard somewhere in late Nightmare. Admittedly I haven't played the high-level characters since Inferno got nerfed into reasonability, but leveling up the wizard is just so bland and by-the-numbers. I also hate being railroaded and miss being able to just say "fuck off" to quest-givers and do my own thing if I wanted to. That might be my biggest thing, actually.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #92 on: October 12, 2012, 12:28:37 PM

Monk and Witch Doctor into Act 1 Inferno, Wizard somewhere in late Nightmare. Admittedly I haven't played the high-level characters since Inferno got nerfed into reasonability, but leveling up the wizard is just so bland and by-the-numbers. I also hate being railroaded and miss being able to just say "fuck off" to quest-givers and do my own thing if I wanted to. That might be my biggest thing, actually.

Ah, I'd agree with that.  The game is a fair bit more linear than Diablo 2 was.  There were some optional quests in Diablo 2, and the story bits would just sort of happen when you got to them regardless of whether or not you did all the previous parts (with some exceptions, assembling the horadric cube, assembling the flail in Act 3).  The fact that a lot of the outdoor areas are not randomized hurts a lot, and even when they are randomized, it isn't to the degree to which they were randomized in Diablo 2.  This does cut down on exploration a lot.  I suppose part of it is limitations in the engine/3d graphics, but it certainly does make the game feel like less of an adventure.  Even to this day when I play Diablo 2 and start a new character, wandering out into the Blood Moor feels kind of inspiring, I'm a hero going on an adventure.  In Diablo 3 it feels much more like I am just starting a book which I have, at this point, already read a dozen times.

Also, I think the game gets considerably more fun when you really start to gear up and can blast through monsters.   I certainly remember those days of having to kite every elite pack around for 5 minutes to kill them, and that was tedious, but it becomes somewhat less so.  I think part of the problem is also that leveling up the loot is somewhat nondescript.  I've mentioned this before here, and I think others have as well, that in Diablo 2 you'd sometimes find pieces of (low to mid level) loot that would inspire you to create an entirely new character and level them up.  Or you'd find a piece of loot while leveling up that would influence how you decided to build that character.  There are some signature pieces in the end game (Act 3 inferno basically), that are really awesome like that (Skorn, Sever) but I think it isn't as present when leveling up which makes it just seem like a process of replacing one uninteresting piece with another.
Salamok
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2731


Reply #93 on: October 12, 2012, 12:51:01 PM

Also, I think the game gets considerably more fun when you really start to gear up and can blast through monsters.   I certainly remember those days of having to kite every elite pack around for 5 minutes to kill them, and that was tedious, but it becomes somewhat less so. 
Bleh I have advanced from kiting to just standing there and letting my AC/resists/LoH keep me alive while I keep the chain lightening pressed to chip away at elite health, I can sort of maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel if I can triple my DPS to 130k or something I can see where it would be a bit more exciting.  At least I am at a point where I can slog through 6 or so zones of act 3 with 375mf in relative safely at 90minutes per run and have a decent shot of an occasional awesome drop.  This is far preferable to farming ACT 1 at a faster pace and setting my hopes on a sell-able low end legendary.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10591


Reply #94 on: October 14, 2012, 10:50:13 AM

Also, I think the game gets considerably more fun when you really start to gear up and can blast through monsters.   I certainly remember those days of having to kite every elite pack around for 5 minutes to kill them, and that was tedious, but it becomes somewhat less so. 
Bleh I have advanced from kiting to just standing there and letting my AC/resists/LoH keep me alive while I keep the chain lightening pressed to chip away at elite health, I can sort of maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel if I can triple my DPS to 130k or something I can see where it would be a bit more exciting.  At least I am at a point where I can slog through 6 or so zones of act 3 with 375mf in relative safely at 90minutes per run and have a decent shot of an occasional awesome drop.  This is far preferable to farming ACT 1 at a faster pace and setting my hopes on a sell-able low end legendary.

Yeah, this is precisely why 1.0.5 is going to be really nice.  It is going to really speed up the pace of farming for people in your DPS range.  I'm not drastically higher myself, but a fair bit, and I have a bit of a slog through parts of Act 3 (fuck the battlefields).   
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6710

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #95 on: October 25, 2012, 03:35:47 AM

Just got a set item drop (Natalya's Sight) from.... a barrel!   awesome, for real

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Diablo 3  |  Topic: Finding Legendary (And Set) Items  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC