Gentle Peoples Bets on Launch Numbers

[Merusk]

Not really about color, color was fine. But for a series heralded for its fidelity of the time ( Do to rendered assets ), D3 does not really do justice to the look and feel expected when transitioned to full 3d assets.  I feel Poe has advanced in that category, is is more of the evolution expected. IMO. Especially with the resources available to them.

D3 uses small undetailed textures, little modern rendering, and woefully small polygon counts. Its not a bad looking game taken for what it is. The lack of the ability to set a comfortable zoom level is a result of those choices however. I can also play with 15 of my friends in POE.. There is just so much about this title that does not seem forward thinking or features for a title with the Diablo name and blizzard as its maker.

Look at the system reqs. Blizzard has the "playable on even old systems" mantra. Does PoE?  Considering there's people out there that will be trying on POS systems built in 2004/5 I'll wager that's part of the lack for modern rendering and low polys.

I'll never expect innovation from Blizzard.  Never. If it happens, be happy but in the end they've always used polish and wide access as their key selling points.

[Mrbloodworth]

Look at the system reqs. Blizzard has the "playable on even old systems" mantra. Does PoE?

D3 Min:

Windows® XP/Vista/7 (latest service packs) with DX 9.0c
Intel Pentium® D 2.8 GHz or AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 4400+
NVIDIA® GeForce® 7800 GT or ATI Radeon™ X1950 Pro or better
1 GB RAM (XP), 1.5 GB (Vista/7)
12 GB available HD space
DVD-ROM (required for retail disc versions only)
Broadband** Internet connection
1024x768 minimum resolution

POE Min:

Graphics Card with Pixel Shader 3.0 or higher, and a CPU that supports SSE2. At least 2GB of RAM is recommended, and older Integrated Graphics Cards will not run well.

Note: NVIDIA® GeForce® 7800 is Pixel Shader 3.0.

Speaking of polish, in D3 one of the first things I noticed was that there were two mayors standing in town. polish is another area that D3 gets lower than expected marks for a ten years development title. Also, unlike D3, POE IS an MMO.

[Mrbloodworth]

I suppose this was more accurate than just comparing a crypt from all 4 games, huh?  

No, but less time consuming.

[Ingmar]

I really hate how zoomed-in POE is.

[Mrbloodworth]

I really hate how zoomed-in POE is.

It has Variable Zoom. Scroll in to what you like, it holds up at all levels. Little things like this are forward thinking.

[Sjofn]

Could you please explain to me how you think D3's screenshot is "wrong" for ... whatever it is you want? Because I seriously am not really seeing it ... possibly because I don't even know what I'm looking for. "It doesn't look right  " is not the most useful of art critiques.

[Paelos]

I thought we weren't shitting here.

[Mrbloodworth]

The stylization is some sort of halfway between D2 and torchlight. The Fidelity of the texture, and models are more akin to Wow requirement, and have less details like Torchlight, but heavy stylization on the most important parts. It does not follow the Diablo line, or carry over from what was one a title heralded for its high fidelity ( Due to its per-renderd assets ) for its time. One would have thought, that they would continue the tradition of high quality, realistic graphical style when they converted to full 3D. This is more than simply targeting low system requirements, this is a chosen, at the design level, stylization for a fan base brought up on another title they own. There is no other reason for it. Is it a shitty looking game? No, I never said that. Does it fit inline with its predecessors, not really.

Not sure how much more I can explain it, and I said this already, no where did I say: "It doesn't look right  Heartbreak", I was rather clear the first time.

Edit: Clarification.

[Ratman_tf]

Diablo 1 & 2 were "Darker" because your imagination filled out the holes in the shitty 600x800 res 32-bit graphics & 4-color palette.  High-res 1950x1080 with 32 million colors causes quite a different look.

Folks who don't like it can bitch all they want about it, it's foolish. I'm not sorry they decided there's more to a color palette than black brown white and red.

Tru dat. Also, the story was better because there was less of it. All this angels versus demons animu bullshit is crap compared to the intro to D1, with the crow pecking an eye from a corpse, and some demons growling in a crypt. Though the brightly colored succubi with their titties out, shooting red and blue photon torpedoes were really dark and gothic.  

[Ingmar]

I live in a world where people crapped all over D2's graphics (why is it only 640x480! why isn't it full 3D!) when it came out, so I really don't get where you're coming from, Mr.B.

I also look at those screenshots you post and think to myself 'D3 looks so much better than POE' though. Everything I've seen of Torchlight 2 looks better than POE, for that matter. POE is just straight-up ugly. It has no character.

EDIT: I guess I can kind of see that maybe it is a little more stylized than before in the actual player models themselves? I don't think 'realistic' was ever something that leapt to mind for D1/D2 graphically and I definitely don't see the environments being more stylized than before.

[Sjofn]

Well, Bloodworth, one of the things you said was the "atmosphere" was wrong, and I just ... don't see it. At all. But this may be because I don't give a shit about polygon counts when assessing an atmosphere? I don't know. When I look at those screenshots side by side, looking for what the "atmosphere" is, I am not really seeing LOL WOW in the D3 one. I am seeing a prettier version of "creepy ol' dungeon."

I never played the first Diablo and I played D2 long after it came out (and thus it was old and creaky looking by the time I got to it) though, so perhaps I just don't have the ROOTS to see the very subtle ways the art for Diablo 3 is too "WoW-y."

[Rasix]

This thread is giving me the ultra-bad idea of installing this on my work PC. 

[Mrbloodworth]

I wasn't talking my personal preference, but about the over all fidelity and technique and chosen style, and I already said D3 is not an ugly game.

Anyway, clearly the Nostalgia Haze is kicking in here, anything I say will be taken just as Sjofn responded. Not reading what is being said, but taking it as a slight to the latest installment of a long loved franchise.

EDIT: Sjofn, I did say atmosphere, Because I believe its not in keeping with the title. Its more cartoon stylization than it is realistic dungeon, and I believe Xuri  had it right. Its the juxtaposition of the Toons and mobs stylization on a more, but not quite, realistic world. Does it work as a whole? Yes. Does it fit with the rest? no so much.

[Ratman_tf]

Well, Bloodworth, one of the things you said was the "atmosphere" was wrong, and I just ... don't see it. At all. But this may be because I don't give a shit about polygon counts when assessing an atmosphere? I don't know. When I look at those screenshots side by side, looking for what the "atmosphere" is, I am not really seeing LOL WOW in the D3 one. I am seeing a prettier version of "creepy ol' dungeon."

I never played the first Diablo and I played D2 long after it came out (and thus it was old and creaky looking by the time I got to it) though, so perhaps I just don't have the ROOTS to see the very subtle ways the art for Diablo 3 is too "WoW-y."

I think Merusk hit it on the head. Nostalgia glasses seem to be effecting people's memories of D1 and D2.

[Ingmar]

If I say I didn't really care for D1 in general and never thought D2 was anything better than passable graphically does that help? The only nostalgia haze I have is for the gameplay of D2, I'll admit that straight-up.

[Sjofn]

Well, I could dismiss you as having nostalgia for D2's art being well received or lauded for ... stuff (I seriously do not remember such a thing, but again, I was mostly oblivious to it when it first came out). But you said "atmosphere." That is a nebulous arty thing, not a technical thing. I know fuck all about the technical shit, because I do not care about it so long as it looks good, so I am going with the more arty bullshit of "the atmosphere."

The problem with those earlier Diablo screenshots is that while they do, of course, have an art style, they're also fucking old as shit and couldn't do as much to hammer their artistic vision into your eyeballs. I also don't see what they were shooting for in D3 (we are doomed, we love giant pillars, and a gloomy haze) being that much different artistically from the previous two.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes, that's why its hard to get my point across, the age of the times they were created. Anyway.. We all have more time to spend with it.

[Merusk]

I live in a world where people crapped all over D2's graphics (why is it only 640x480! why isn't it full 3D!) when it came out, so I really don't get where you're coming from, Mr.B.

I remember that being one of my issues with the game.  Despite this "pre-rendered assets" thing, when I tried playing I remember thinking it looked like ass.  Like they'd put all this work into models but didn't have the balls to pull the trigger on making it 3d and instead turned those into sprites.

This was the same year that the first Sims was released.  It looked a hell of a lot better and had more options for graphic resolutions.  Icewind Dale, also the case if you want to stay in the RPG genre.

I certainly don't have any beloved D1 & d2 nostalgia I'm fighting.  I never played D1 at all and picked-up D2 because of the IT guy at that office recommending it.  I was sorely disappointed at the hype he'd sold me. 

I'm comparing the whines of D2 fans at how color 'ruined' the franchise and 'it doesn't look like Diablo' to my memory of it being a shitty aesthetic in the first place and, hey, it's 2012 that aesthetic isn't going to cut it in the first place.

[apocrypha]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. I did not say atmosphere wise Torchlight is more like the original Diablo, I said it has more character. As to the skills, there is a line where streamline becomes simplification for no real reason for me. Also, I will always, ALWAYS vote in favor of less linear progression. In this regards POE has spoiled me greatly. I don't think I can ever play a game like this and not be able to have such flexibility. Roll your own class has to great a pull for me.

This skill system seems like I have been given a pair of safety scissors, in the same way there are no longer any bad picks in Wow.

Not making any comment on the aesthetics discussion since I believe it's entirely subjective. However your comments about the skill system are simply wrong and sound like the things people were saying about the skill system 6 months ago before anyone really understood it.

Diablo 3 has possibly the most flexible, varied and complex skill & character progression system I have ever seen. Each class has something like 22 skills, each of which can be modified by 5 different runes, many of which greatly change the skill. You can pick ANY of those skills in any combination you like and you can respec at any time, for free. Plus you can pick 3 out of 16 passive skills. The sheer number of viable builds dwarfs that available in Diablo 2 for instance, and this flexibility is being mistaken for "dumbing down" since it is much, much harder to pick badly. And if you do, hey, free respec.

If you want a system where you can gimp your character and the only way to know how to spec is to read external websites where people have made spreadsheets and run simulators and done maths then yeah, Diablo 3 isn't for you. I think this system is far more fun and flexible and accessible.

edit: typos.

[Phred]

Diablo 3 has possibly the most flexible, varied and complex skill & character progression system I have ever seen. Each class as something like 22 skills, each of which can be modified by 5 different runes, many of which greatly change the skill. You can pick ANY of those skills in any combination you like and you can respec at any time, for free. Plus you can pick 3 out of 16 passive skills. The sheer number of viable builds dwarfs that available in Diablo 2 for instance, and this flexibility is being mistake for "dumbing down" since it is much, much harder to pick badly. And if you do, hey, free respec.

If you want a system where you can gimp your character and the only way to know how to spec is to read external websites where people have made spreadsheets and run simulators and done maths then yeah, Diablo 3 isn't for you. I think this system is far more fun and flexible and accessible.

Exactly. The real fun for me atm is discovering the synergies in the skills. The barbarian totally rocks for this, with stuns that pull all the mobs in to one spot where he can hit them with his size reduced, dmg buffed hammer strike.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. I did not say atmosphere wise Torchlight is more like the original Diablo, I said it has more character. As to the skills, there is a line where streamline becomes simplification for no real reason for me. Also, I will always, ALWAYS vote in favor of less linear progression. In this regards POE has spoiled me greatly. I don't think I can ever play a game like this and not be able to have such flexibility. Roll your own class has to great a pull for me.

This skill system seems like I have been given a pair of safety scissors, in the same way there are no longer any bad picks in Wow.

Not making any comment on the aesthetics discussion since I believe it's entirely subjective. However your comments about the skill system are simply wrong and sound like the things people were saying about the skill system 6 months ago before anyone really understood it.

Diablo 3 has possibly the most flexible, varied and complex skill & character progression system I have ever seen. Each class has something like 22 skills, each of which can be modified by 5 different runes, many of which greatly change the skill. You can pick ANY of those skills in any combination you like and you can respec at any time, for free. Plus you can pick 3 out of 16 passive skills. The sheer number of viable builds dwarfs that available in Diablo 2 for instance, and this flexibility is being mistaken for "dumbing down" since it is much, much harder to pick badly. And if you do, hey, free respec.

If you want a system where you can gimp your character and the only way to know how to spec is to read external websites where people have made spreadsheets and run simulators and done maths then yeah, Diablo 3 isn't for you. I think this system is far more fun and flexible and accessible.

edit: typos.

You should really look at POE's skill ( Gem ) system and passive skill system. Your second paragraph is not what I was talking about at all.

Anyway, I picked this up last night to play with friends for the next month or so, so you guys can add a +1 to your estimates.

[Fabricated]

D3 doesn't really feel like D2 at all to me. Not even close. It's a pretty polished ARPG set in the Diablo universe. At least that's what it feels like. It's still pretty fun however, which is all that matters. There is literally no way to recapture all of our nostalgia for D1/2. It's just not doable.

As for the graphics; they're mediocre if you ask me. I actually like the brighter overall feel; but I feel like I have to squint at the game. It just looks blurry as fuck to me.

[K9]

I find the opposite, to me D3 is D2 with immense amounts of polish.

I'm not buying the "needs more grimdark" opinion either.

[Ratman_tf]

I agree about the blur. Everything looks hazy, especially outside. I wonder if that's intentional, since I'm still in Act 1, maybe it's supposed to be mist?

[Paelos]

I find the opposite, to me D3 is D2 with immense amounts of polish.

I'm not buying the "needs more grimdark" opinion either.

Me either. My grimdark skull is staring at my on my desk with the USB soul stone.

[apocrypha]

You should really look at POE's skill ( Gem ) system and passive skill system. Your second paragraph is not what I was talking about at all.

Anyway, I picked this up last night to play with friends for the next month or so, so you guys can add a +1 to your estimates.

I'll give POE a look at some point, although I actually hate the graphical style of the screenshots I've seen - it seems characterless to me, leaves me cold. Totally subjective.

[Ingmar]

The environments are really, really varied. For every slightly cheerful looking highlands I've run through there's been a horrible dark mine I can't see more than 3 feet away from myself in. This is IMO a very good change from the prior games, even D2 isn't really close on the number of different looking environments. Also as you get farther into the game the GRR GRIMDARK gets ramped up.

Also, vivisected cow altars. 

[schild]

Bloodworth, I can't hear your complaints over the sounds of my Barbarians fists PUNCHING A SKELETON OUT OF A FLESHY THING.

Go play your fucking indie knockoff.

[murdoc]

More than 3.5 million first day, currently 6.3.

http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/press/pressreleases.html?id=4662221

[Paelos]

It's basically already wiped the SC2 sales off the map in the first week.

Once again proving that the idiot who wrote the article comparing this game to SC2 was, in fact, an idiot.

[Musashi]

THIS is the game Bloodworth picks to be critical of?  /boggle

[FieryBalrog]

D3 doesn't really feel like D2 at all to me. Not even close. It's a pretty polished ARPG set in the Diablo universe. At least that's what it feels like. It's still pretty fun however, which is all that matters. There is literally no way to recapture all of our nostalgia for D1/2. It's just not doable.

As for the graphics; they're mediocre if you ask me. I actually like the brighter overall feel; but I feel like I have to squint at the game. It just looks blurry as fuck to me.

You should turn off the shitty in-game AA and force MSAA through your vidya card, if you have that option.

[Malakili]

It's basically already wiped the SC2 sales off the map in the first week.

Once again proving that the idiot who wrote the article comparing this game to SC2 was, in fact, an idiot.

Which article was that?  But yeah, this isn't surprising at all, RTS just isn't a popular genre these days. 

[Paelos]

It's basically already wiped the SC2 sales off the map in the first week.

Once again proving that the idiot who wrote the article comparing this game to SC2 was, in fact, an idiot.

Which article was that?  But yeah, this isn't surprising at all, RTS just isn't a popular genre these days. 

It was This Article from the stocks and bonds general discussion.

[Cheddar]

6.66 million

Paelos WINS!