First Impressions

[Spiff]

Guardians aren't what you'd call a straight forward dedicated healer, but they have the ability to negate a lot of damage on quite a few people.
Mostly through boons of course, it's all about the boons.

So while you might not be standing there spamming heal 1 - heal 2 all the time, there are actually pretty powerful support options.
Of course it requires a bit more teamwork than it does in most MMOs (positioning is key here as well, as is 'comboing').

I can imagine the fact you can't just press a button and see teammate A's health shoot up, might annoy/confuse people that usually fill a more classic healing role, but I've seen a few slightly more coordinated mini-battles and most of the time the group with a decent healing guardian/elementalist was the one still standing at the end.

[Zetor]

Yea, I watched some videos about high-end tournament games and healing makes a huge difference in pvp. In pve it seems to be more COH-y in the sense that you either bruteforce your way through incoming damage [healing], debuff and control the enemy so much less healing is required [blind, daze, snares/roots, etc], or buff the party so they take less damage / kill the enemy faster [regen, toughness, might, fury].

In fact, most of the healing seems to come from (ab)use of combos, specifically using 'blast' and 'whirl' attacks inside water fields.. that way the responsibility is more on the person needing the healing to make use of the field. There are a few oddball builds, like a warrior built around shouts that has pretty ridiculous group healing. Guardians also get an elite that gives them some insanely powerful heals.. for 30 seconds every 180 seconds (with the right traits).

[Spiff]

I can hardly imagine that guardian elite to make it live or at the very least not get nerfed in the first few weeks, because that actually DOES turn them into direct healers that can shoot up someone's health with a few clicks.

Elite skills in general need a good looking at imo; some can change the outcome of a battle and some (like the engineer's for instance) I'd rather just take a 5th regular skill even.

[tmp]

I agree 100%.  Given the choice I'd rather have fights hinge on the strength of healing and control than on the ability to rapidly assist your DPS train.

That's presuming "assisting the DPS train" is actually viable approach in the game, when it doesn't have to be -- turn on collision detection and friendly fire, have attacks work as suitable variant of aoe rather than tab-target, and suddenly placing more than 2 people on one without them murdering one another in the process instead of their target can become a problem. And the fights may somewhat naturally break into individual scale encounters.

(gives all-ranged units advantage as long as they can actually stay at range, obv. but then it becomes a matter of maneuvering/tactics)

[Nebu]

Collision detection is a griefer's paradise.  You have to be VERY careful if you're going to include collision detection in your pvp model.

[Ingmar]

Collision detection is a griefer's paradise.  You have to be VERY careful if you're going to include collision detection in your pvp model.

I like how you picked collision detection out of that rather than friendly fire as the griefer mechanic. 

[Segoris]

I can hardly imagine that guardian elite to make it live or at the very least not get nerfed in the first few weeks, because that actually DOES turn them into direct healers that can shoot up someone's health with a few clicks.

I don't see it as being too out of place though. Besides the very long cooldown, there are some major requirements in a fast paced tPVP game such as the guardian cannot move at all while casting the heal, and is likely already somewhat low on HP when casting it. Even if they're full on HP when casting it and casting just to heal others, the guardian can actually be burst down before getting that spell off (this is with a full tank/support guardian btw).

Compare that to a nice stun on a 45s cooldown from thieves, or a pet that does as much damage as another player from Elems, etc.

Some elites need looking at, but this one actually is in line more than people realize, I think so anyways.

[Amaron]

DPS battles get pretty dull, pretty quickly.  I think that dedicated healers and debuffers bring flavor to pvp. 

That's no excuse to not remove them in at least one game.  By removing them they can start developing a more interesting system.

[Evildrider]

DPS battles get pretty dull, pretty quickly.  I think that dedicated healers and debuffers bring flavor to pvp. 

That's no excuse to not remove them in at least one game.  By removing them they can start developing a more interesting system.

So basically an FPS?  Where you die, respawn, and run back constantly?  Lack of healing really showed in WvW for me.  Even with everyone being able to rez it's not something you can do easily in siege conditions.  Basically what was happening was that I'd get to a location and if I died I'd wait to see if it was possible for my group to rez me, if they couldn't it was respawn and spend 10 minutes getting back to the action.

[tazelbain]

I don't see how spawn point zerging is related to healing.

[Zetor]

Besides, like I said a few posts above, healing IS important... watch the Super Squad vs Team Paradigm videos from the last BWE, healing/support from that staff elementalist is a key factor in them winning.

I like more interactive healing in general. The 'lance of mitra' in freakin' AOC was another good example - it was a targeted line/cone attack you had to aim, and it damaged enemies / healed friendlies in its way... same with the paladin 'healing ability that works like cone of cold, only with green numbers' ability they added in cata (or maybe wotlk).

[Nebu]

I like how you picked collision detection out of that rather than friendly fire as the griefer mechanic. 

Friendly fire is much easier to document and ban for. 

[Kageru]

What Zetor said. There are lot's of healing and damage reduction powers in the game. Just about the last thing you could accuse it of is "just DPS" when every class has powers with all sorts of interactions. The difference is they're limited, you can't rely on just healing to blunt an attack.

[Amaron]

So basically an FPS?  Where you die, respawn, and run back constantly? 

That's actually a flaw with the downed mechanic.   The fact that you can't get resed by group mates if you're killed is going to be really lame in WvWvW.

[Trippy]

You can't? I was rezzing people and people were rezzing me, though I was playing on the map where you only had access to the skills and unspent skill points you entered with.

[Ard]

You can always raise others.  There are even map markers for it, and multiple videos showing how nasty it is in WvWvW from the defenders side, since if you win, you nearly immediately have a fully defended keep again after you repulse them.

[Feverdream]

Even Ranger pets can rezz in WvW if you spec them for that ability!

[kildorn]

Yes, even someone who is "stomped" can be rezzed, it just takes longer (if you're on the map looking for a respawn marker, it will notify you that you're being healed), and there are a few skills that will rez people. The earth elementalist glyph is pretty mean looking (rezzes 3 nearby people)

[Modern Angel]

That's actually a flaw with the downed mechanic.   The fact that you can't get resed by group mates if you're killed is going to be really lame in WvWvW.

Amaron, you do this thing about once a month where you start talking about a thing that you don't actually know about as if you know a WHOLE FUCKING LOT about it. You're kind of doing it now with GW2. Pause, take a breath, read, pay attention. Then start typing.

You can be rezzed if you're killed killed.

[Threash]

I think that's basically all he does.

[Amaron]

You can be rezzed if you're killed killed.

I got confused then because he said he had to run back.  I don't know much about GW2.   It was a conversation regarding PvP in general and not GW2 from my point of view.  I've only really talked about two things regarding GW2.   The new user exp is bad and the lack of dedicated healers is good in general.   Neither of those things requires much knowledge about the game.

[raresnake]

ok first of all long time lurker here,let me begin by telling you english is not my native language so bear with me,i played every mmorpg since asherons call,i played this last BWE and my impresion is that from a gameplay perspective is much beteer than wow and more accesible to everyone(dont have to run back to quest giver,no need to go to the bank,etc)its the first game in a LONG time that i feel is doing something truly new and is truly revolutionary ,so there you have it ,better than wow ,and no im not a troll ,i feel this is the game that will move the genre forwards,i know its a diku,but you all know sandbox is niche and wont sell except eve and i dont think they got half a million subs.

[Chimpy]

Periods are your friend.   

[Xuri]

i know its a diku,but you all know sandbox is niche and wont sell except eve and i dont think they got half a million subs.

Please. When was the last time a quality sandbox MMO was made? Never, that's when.

Also, copypasta from Wikipedia about Minecraft, with stuff bolded by me:

In September 2010, after an impromptu free-to-play weekend, the game had a spike in sales of over 25,000 purchases in 24 hours.[72][73] On January 12, 2011, Minecraft passed 1,000,000 purchases,[74][75] less than a month after reaching Beta. At the same time, the game had no publisher backing and has never been commercially advertised except through word of mouth[76], and apparently unpaid mention in popular media like Penny Arcade[77]. By April 2011, Persson estimated that Minecraft had made €23 million (US$33 million) in revenue, with 800,000 sales of the alpha version of the game, and over 1 million sales of the beta version.[78] On July 1, 2011 Minecraft passed the 10 million registered users mark.[79][non-primary source needed] As of November 7, 2011, Minecraft had over 16 million registered users, and over 4 million purchases.[80]

The Xbox 360 version of Minecraft became profitable within the first hour of release.[81][non-primary source needed] Within the first 24 hours of the game's release, Minecraft broke the Xbox Live sales records, with 400,000 players online.[82] Within a week of being on the Xbox Live Marketplace, Minecraft sold upwards of one million copies.[83] It was announced in July 2012 that Minecraft has sold over three million copies since the game debuted on Xbox LIVE Arcade in May 2012. This brings the total projected sales for Minecraft over seven million over all platforms in its lifetime.[84]

Sandbox isn't niche.

[Nebu]

Please. When was the last time a quality sandbox MMO was made? Never, that's when.

UO

SWG

ATitD

All very decent sandbox MMO's. 

[Rasix]

"Quality" is highly debatable for all 3.

[Nebu]

"Quality" is highly debatable for all 3.

Quality is subjective.  I had more fun playing those 3 games than I ever did playing WoW. 

[Ingmar]

Quality isn't really subjective. Fun is (and for a lot of people is independent of quality.) I don't think you could argue that Cyanide's version of Blood Bowl has a lot to offer in the quality department, but we still have fun.

I supposed defining what we mean when we say quality (and applied to which bits of the game) is important though.

[Nebu]

Quality isn't really subjective.

Since we're not comparing motor oil, quality is subjective.  How does one measure the quality of an MMO?  Metrics would vary with each enthusiast you asked. 

[Ingmar]

Technical execution, is what I would generally think of first. But yeah granted, you may not be using quality the way I would.

[Tmon]

Quality isn't really subjective.

 How does one measure the quality of an MMO? 

I bet it involves charts.

[Sky]

Quality isn't really subjective.

 How does one measure the quality of an MMO? 

I bet it involves charts.

Pronounced 'sharts'.

[raresnake]

i want to know in which planet minecraft is an mmo.

[Kageru]

Better to just measure popularity in terms of player retention since that translates into money, which is what the developers are after.

The what is an MMO delineation wars are a fun old chestnut. But a persistent, multi-player world is my baseline so I have no problem with Minecraft being considered one.

[Sir Fodder]

WvW in GW2 video.

Whoa, this just went from off the radar to must try. Some chaotic PvP action in there with lots of effects going on, magic and robots, looks like some sloppy fun. Hope there is some opportunity for character definement and spice.