Spec Talk

[Morfiend]

Since the other thread got taken over by OMG fanbioz talk, ill move the spec talk here.

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Camouflage   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Initiative   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 1
Preparation   Rank 1
Subtlety Total:   22
Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge   Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Improved Backstab   Rank 3
Combat Total:   8
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 1
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:

I have to say again that if you are planning an assassination rogue you really should get Improved Sap. It is a GREAT skill. It allows you to CC one player, and still have stealth for a big ambush crit, or a Cheap Shot.
As for Master of Deception, thats more of a "I have extra points" talant. 5 points makes you 3 levels higher, but at level 60, its kind of pointless, for some of the other talants you could get (improved sap maybe?).

You havent said (i dont think) if you are going to be planning on using Daggers or Swords. Since Im a combat rogue, I use swords (or maces) and my main damage output comes from auto attack, sinister strike, and eviserate. While a dagger rogues main damage comes from Ambush, backstab and eviserate.

My 15 assassination (leathality, Crit talant), 31 Combat (blade fury, Adrenaline Rush) and 5 Sub (camoflague) is sort of a max sustained damage build. I do a TON of damage with my sinister strikes, and while lacking the big hits from backstab, I do really good damage. I crit 25% of the time, and my sinister strikes hit for around 150 to 200 with my crits being avarage of 350 and my eviserates hitting for 600-800 with crits of 1200-1500. I do a lot better in PVE, casue of my sustained damage, than a dagger rogue.

I really have fun with my build, but some times it feels a bit simplictic. Once I hit 50 and start pvping even more, I am going to consider respeccing to Assassination/Sub for the high burst damage in PVP.

[Threash]

I'm using pretty much the same build you are, cept i gave up camo and adrenaline rush for cold blood.  The three minute recycle and go-from-half-health-to-dead hit it gives me seemed more usefull than adrenaline rush.

[Rasix]

I'll be going dagger once I can get a good enough one to make an ambush build viable.  Like I said, wiggle room is there.  I might as well drop the 5 points in MoD (since it really only helps if you're going to duel a rogue) and put them into improved ambush and sap.   

I do however plan on being a tad more of a sword/ss spammer until I get closer to the end.  One of the main reasons is that I got a Bloodrazor for free off a friend.  That's 37 dps available at level 45.  45-50 will be a damn blur.

[Threash]

I do however plan on being a tad more of a sword/ss spammer until I get closer to the end.  One of the main reasons is that I got a Bloodrazor for free off a friend.  That's 37 dps available at level 45.  45-50 will be a damn blur.

I hate you, im 60 and still using a thrash blade.  Lost the stupid roll on the dal'rend tribal charge :(

[WayAbvPar]

As for Master of Deception, thats more of a "I have extra points" talant. 5 points makes you 3 levels higher, but at level 60, its kind of pointless, for some of the other talants you could get (improved sap maybe?

How does it work at 60? Does it make you undetectable by other 60s (effectively 63rd level stealth)? If that is the case, I can see its uses. I use it now since i am only midlevel (lowish for PvP), so anyone I fight in PvP is going to be higher level generally. I may respec out of it when I get to 60 if it doesn't work against other 60s though.

[Threash]

Not undetectable but people will have to be closer to you to be able to see you, you are still never going to sneak right in front of someone's nose so as long as you aproach from behind its not necesary.

[Morfiend]

As for Master of Deception, thats more of a "I have extra points" talant. 5 points makes you 3 levels higher, but at level 60, its kind of pointless, for some of the other talants you could get (improved sap maybe?

How does it work at 60? Does it make you undetectable by other 60s (effectively 63rd level stealth)? If that is the case, I can see its uses. I use it now since i am only midlevel (lowish for PvP), so anyone I fight in PvP is going to be higher level generally. I may respec out of it when I get to 60 if it doesn't work against other 60s though.

Basically it raises your stealth level, so people have a harder time seeing you. The only time it is REALLY worth it is if you are fighting another rogue, and your both in stealth.

[chinslim]

I keep trying to tell friends that rogues aren't that great, except for maybe instance farming.  Of course, my main is a priest. 

Oh well, continue with your theorycraft.

[stray]

I keep trying to tell friends that rogues aren't that great, except for maybe instance farming.

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you. Unless, of course, something has drastically changed about the game since I left?

[Jayce]

I keep trying to tell friends that rogues aren't that great, except for maybe instance farming.  Of course, my main is a priest. 

Oh well, continue with your theorycraft.

There's the official Blizzard boards for off the cuff dismissals like that.

[chinslim]

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

But rogue pvp beyond easy-pickings of low-levels is really not that easy at 60.  Both mages and priests usually have their way with rogues.  Warlocks 'in the field' are probably the easiest to take on, but that's because they're farming or leveling with the wrong pet out.

And I think you should put points in Master of Deception if ganking is your thing.  I spent some free time last night punting around 2 rogues who had really poor stealth(all 3 of us being level 60), which allowed me to DOT and DD before they could react.  The popular builds at 60 seem to be improved sap for instance raid utility or high combat for efficient solo SM farming.

[MrHat]

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

But rogue pvp beyond easy-pickings of low-levels is really not that easy at 60.  Both mages and priests usually have their way with rogues.  Warlocks 'in the field' are probably the easiest to take on, but that's because they're farming or leveling with the wrong pet out.

And I think you should put points in Master of Deception if ganking is your thing.  I spent some free time last night punting around 2 rogues who had really poor stealth(all 3 of us being level 60), which allowed me to DOT and DD before they could react.  The popular builds at 60 seem to be improved sap for instance raid utility or high combat for efficient solo SM farming.

Being a L60 rogue, I never expected to be easy at the end.  The current interation of pvp, and battlegrounds I would assume, thrust the rogue into the roll of picking off stragglers. 

Priests do have their way with me, but only because I didn't choose Undead for my race.  "Have their way with me" should be rephrased to stalemate, since I don't get killed by priests, we just go back and forth.  Mages are easy because they're horribly predictable.  Stun them out of stealth, immeadiatly start running to where they would blink to, meet them there with another stun and drop the hurt on them.

Stealth is a blanket.  You get to chose when to attack and who to attack.  However, I do feel kind of useless in 35yd pvp.  But that's why I have imp. sap.  Lets me get behind the enemy and sap with abandon, I love the confusion and panic it causes.

I agree with the warlock statement, they're easy as ass to kill if you get the drop on them.

Currently working up a mage (40) and a hunter for BG, because range is good when there's lots of confusion.

Edit: As I've mentioned before, I've tried all sorts of Rogue builds and come to two must have skills to be successful at WoW:  Cold Blood (for pvp and pve) and Imp. Sap (mostly for PvE).  Cold Blood lets you choose when you want to dump 1.7k damage.  And Imp Sap is nice for the situation above, as well as being beautiful in instances.  I do plan on trying the infamous Seal Fate bug in the next week or so, waiting to get a pair of decent daggers first.

[stray]

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

No, actually it wasn't what I had in mind. I was more interested in a frontlines rogue like Morphiend (as an alternative to what I really wanted to play -- a Warrior), but saw that, ultimately, it wasn't playing to the Rogue's strengths. So I gave up. Stealth and gank isn't really my playstyle.

Btw, WotF for teh win.

[Morfiend]

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

No, actually it wasn't what I had in mind. I was more interested in a frontlines rogue like Morphiend (as an alternative to what I really wanted to play -- a Warrior), but saw that, ultimately, it wasn't playing to the Rogue's strengths. So I gave up. Stealth and gank isn't really my playstyle.

Btw, WotF for teh win.

Yeah, my rogue is a in your face type rogue, relying on stuns and ss + eviserate to kill. Unfortunatly, as I just hit 60, and didnt do much high end instance raids (I soloed to 60. IN YOUR FACE BRUCE.) I have a bit below avarage gear. And a in your face rogue needs some good gear.

I am also playing my Warlock who is lvl 36 and has full rested exp. I will be leveling him when im not helping guildies or doing instance runs. The thing is, the battlegrounds are going to sell gear baised on your honor rank, and this gear is just as good (and better) than the high end instance stuff. So Im not going to kill myself trying to get the ubber drop in a 3 hour instance, im going to be mellow, and help guildies and play my 'lock, and do a bit of farming, so that when BGs are release the end of next month, I can just buy a bunch of really good gear.

[Shockeye]

so that when BGs are release the end of next month, I can just buy a bunch of really good gear.

Put the crack pipe down. Seriously.

[MrHat]

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

No, actually it wasn't what I had in mind. I was more interested in a frontlines rogue like Morphiend (as an alternative to what I really wanted to play -- a Warrior), but saw that, ultimately, it wasn't playing to the Rogue's strengths. So I gave up. Stealth and gank isn't really my playstyle.

Btw, WotF for teh win.

Yeah, my rogue is a in your face type rogue, relying on stuns and ss + eviserate to kill. Unfortunatly, as I just hit 60, and didnt do much high end instance raids (I soloed to 60. IN YOUR FACE BRUCE.) I have a bit below avarage gear. And a in your face rogue needs some good gear.

I am also playing my Warlock who is lvl 36 and has full rested exp. I will be leveling him when im not helping guildies or doing instance runs. The thing is, the battlegrounds are going to sell gear baised on your honor rank, and this gear is just as good (and better) than the high end instance stuff. So Im not going to kill myself trying to get the ubber drop in a 3 hour instance, im going to be mellow, and help guildies and play my 'lock, and do a bit of farming, so that when BGs are release the end of next month, I can just buy a bunch of really good gear.

Same thing here Morph.

My rogue is 60 and I can't be bothered with raiding at all.  I just spent all my money buying all my friends mounts.  Cerrano is semi retired until BG comes out.

I have a 40 Mage and a 25 Hunter that I'll be playing off and on.  I really really enjoy this game and am thinking about getting a shaman up just to bounce rest exp between them.

[Righ]

I know this thread is essentially a rogue love-fest, but if anybody cares to look over my hunter beastmaster spec, you'll find it here. Basically, its the required 31 points for spirit bond in uber aspect/pet mode, beastial swiftness, concussive/lethal/aimed from marksmanship and precision/dodge from survival. I primarily use Deathmaw as he's a 1.2s attack pet with good all-round abilities (medium health/armor/damage). I'm hoping that I can pick up a Spire Spiderling (1.0s attack, higher damage, lower health and armor) soon for pure dps situations. Some better armor wouldn't go unused either. :P

[MrHat]

I know this thread is essentially a rogue love-fest, but if anybody cares to look over my hunter beastmaster spec, you'll find it here. Basically, its the required 31 points for spirit bond in uber aspect/pet mode, beastial swiftness, concussive/lethal/aimed from marksmanship and precision/dodge from survival. I primarily use Deathmaw as he's a 1.2s attack pet with good all-round abilities (medium health/armor/damage). I'm hoping that I can pick up a Spire Spiderling (1.0s attack, higher damage, lower health and armor) soon for pure dps situations. Some better armor wouldn't go unused either. :P

My hunter just hit 25, and I'm planning going marksman first.  How has beastmaster been treating you so far?  How do you fair in PvP?  PvE?

[WayAbvPar]

Is beastmaster the 'uber' template? I have a lowbie hunter, but I was leaning towards speccing him Marksmanship instead. I hate pets for the most part, but I like the ranged abilities of the hunter.

[MrHat]

Is beastmaster the 'uber' template? I have a lowbie hunter, but I was leaning towards speccing him Marksmanship instead. I hate pets for the most part, but I like the ranged abilities of the hunter.

As I understand it, if you have a kick ass pet, you can kill stuff non stop pretty much.

[Righ]

Absolutely go marksman first. Beastmaster is all-or-nothing, so you need 31 points to throw at it. Personally, I didn't bother until I had enough for aimed shot and spirit bond (42 points). Since I was using Snarler at the time, I should have waited the extra couple of levels to get Deathmaw. That slowed me down a peg.

Beastmaster is the ultimate PvE build. Spirit bond has an agro management trick which makes it more than just >40dps of damage mitigation. Send your pet to attack and tank a mob, and if you get an add while killing it, you can let the mob chew down some of your health to keep your pet alive, then turn on spirit bond just before you kill the first mob. The agro from the pet heal will cause the second mob to come off you and move to your pet, who is in bow/gun range. By the time you finish the add off, you'll be healed too. Just first aid the pet and repeat. Love.

PvP is interesting too. People nearly always try to take down the hunter and ignore the pet. There are good reasons to do that - the pet doesn't exist when the hunter is dead, and the hunter has higher dps than the pet. If you have spirit bond every hit your pet makes (at level 60) is healing you 40 points of damage. Since the attack speed is so high, the crit rate is so high, and the pet always frenzies for 8 seconds on crit, it is nearly always 30% faster. For a 1.2s pet, you'll be cancelling out 44dps from pet alone. All the while, the pet is putting in pretty serious damage itself. The only downside for hunter PvP is the loss of scatter shot. However, hunter really isn't the class for 1v1 duel type action. In group conflict, played intelligently, you're an extreme menace though.

Edit: I should also point out that with bestial swiftness (there is a point to my having it) and King Bangalash (elite white tiger from SV) you can have your pet chase down a running player on an elite mount. Yeah, the 900g ones. You cannot run away from a beastmaster with the right pet. On anything. Of course, King Bangalash is too gay and elfie looking for most occasions.

[MrHat]

Absolutely go marksman first. Beastmaster is all-or-nothing, so you need 31 points to throw at it. Personally, I didn't bother until I had enough for aimed shot and spirit bond (42 points). Since I was using Snarler at the time, I should have waited the extra couple of levels to get Deathmaw. That slowed me down a peg.

Beastmaster is the ultimate PvE build. Spirit bond has an agro management trick which makes it more than just >40dps of damage mitigation. Send your pet to attack and tank a mob, and if you get an add while killing it, you can let the mob chew down some of your health to keep your pet alive, then turn on spirit bond just before you kill the first mob. The agro from the pet heal will cause the second mob to come off you and move to your pet, who is in bow/gun range. By the time you finish the add off, you'll be healed too. Just first aid the pet and repeat. Love.

PvP is interesting too. People nearly always try to take down the hunter and ignore the pet. There are good reasons to do that - the pet doesn't exist when the hunter is dead, and the hunter has higher dps than the pet. If you have spirit bond every hit your pet makes (at level 60) is healing you 40 points of damage. Since the attack speed is so high, the crit rate is so high, and the pet always frenzies for 8 seconds on crit, it is nearly always 30% faster. For a 1.2s pet, you'll be cancelling out 44dps from pet alone. All the while, the pet is putting in pretty serious damage itself. The only downside for hunter PvP is the loss of scatter shot. However, hunter really isn't the class for 1v1 duel type action. In group conflict, played intelligently, you're an extreme menace though.

Great, thanks for the heads up.  So the different pets have different attack speeds as well?  I thought just their armor changed.  Good to know.

[Righ]

Great, thanks for the heads up.  So the different pets have different attack speeds as well?  I thought just their armor changed.  Good to know.

Fast attack speed pets

[Morfiend]

so that when BGs are release the end of next month, I can just buy a bunch of really good gear.

Put the crack pipe down. Seriously.

Right now the battlegrounds are just about finished. They are working on the problem of major lag when over 50 or so people gather in one area. Which they tried to patch yesterday, and didnt go so well.

[MrHat]

Right, do you have that crazy cool Track Humanoid mod?  The one that pings humanoids and gives all their info?

What's it called and where do I get it?

[Sky]

I can't stick to a pet, I am trying new ones every few levels to find one that fits best with my playstyle. I'd like a tank pet, since I'm Marksman-heavy, but I tend toward cats. Really, if I were to do it over, I'd probably use a worg from Shadowfang for pve, since I've not seen a big difference between most common pets in combat. My current pve pet (which I haven't used in several levels) is Crabzilla, a blue crabbie. Thinking about a scorpid as a tank pet, dunno.

For my pvp pet, I have a longtooth runner. It took me a while to stop laughing when I send in the runner. Their 'pursuit' speed is amazing, and I find it funny how ridiculously fast they engage when given an attack order. I opened my 3rd stable slot for King B, who everyone raves on about. He is fast, but ghey looking (need matching sequins for my armor, Roy!) Not sold on King B yet, I want to race my Longtooth against him first. I haven't done much pve with King, either, so I'm not sure how ridiculously fast his closing speed is compared to the ridiculously fast longtooth runner. Player-wise, I've confirmed King B smokes a normal mounted player, haven't gone up against an expensive mount yet. Ok, so I spend a lot of time using eyes of the beast and cruising around as my pet...

Talent-wise, I'm going mostly marksman. I started on the Beast tree, for extra pet hit points and then for the two run speed buffs (mine and pet's), and I think I took 5 in improved Aspect of the Hawk just to qualify for the run speed stuff. I forget. I don't think I'll get the top tier ability from any line, though. Mostly take a melange of stuff that's useful in both pve and pvp until I get toward the end of the treadmill and then just focus on a pvp build.

I totally love the hunter, decent amount of flexibility, and it complements my outdoorsy style of gameplay. The only thing that bugs me about the class is that it's unpopular with grouptards. I just added in this last bit because I just made up the word grouptard.

[Righ]

Right, do you have that crazy cool Track Humanoid mod?  The one that pings humanoids and gives all their info?

What's it called and where do I get it?

I think you might mean TrackerAssist - not just for humanoids, but what it's best for.

[Righ]

I haven't done much pve with King, either, so I'm not sure how ridiculously fast his closing speed is compared to the ridiculously fast longtooth runner.

Continuing the workout of Irth's big bag o' hunter links:

Pet closing speeds

If you want health and convenience of feeding, pick a bear. If you want armor and decent health, it's scorpids or turtles. Turtles are preferable since the claw nerfing (takes too much focus now) as they support bite. If you want to maintain decent damage (cats and raptors are relatively frail) while still having decent tanking, go with a wolf/worg.

[Sky]

Hmm. I knew all the other stuff, just unclear on closing speeds, thanks for that link (which is the only one I think I didn't also have, heh). Looks like I'm stuck with Bang or levelling up a Swamp Jag, maybe, for a pvp pet. I wish the Runner had a better attack speed. I'll probably stick with him for rp reasons.

If only I had kept Rake or Humar! Too much BS to level them to 44, imo....

[Rasix]

I'm trying to come up with a good build for a non dagger rogue that includes improved sap and cold blood and I'm coming up blank.

Here are the points that I know for sure:

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 1
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:   21

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Combat Total:   2

Anyone got any ideas?  A if I had a decent dagger waiting in the wings, it would be a lot easier for getting improved sap due to getting the ambush skills.  And I'm not sure now that I even want to go ambush/backstab as I'm doing OK without them currently and I like using cheapshot.

[MrHat]

Here you go Rasix:

Instead of focusing on the big frontload, you instead on focus on what makes the rogue so shifty (blind, vanish, cheapshot, kidney shot):

Assassination Talents (26 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 50%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Your finishing moves have a 1101004800% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Improved Expose Armor - 3/3 points
Increases the armor reduced by your Expose Armor ability by 45%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 points
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Improved Kidney Shot - 3/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Kidney Shot ability by 5 seconds.

Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 10.

Subtlety Talents (23 points)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.
Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1.5 minutes.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Gives you a 100% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Master of Deception - 2/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. 10
Preparation - 1/1 points
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 20.
I used this build for a quite a while, and rather enjoyed it.  But I've switched my L60 to a super grind build (remorselessness + ambush).


Having 3 1/2 min timers on your abilities plus a get the fuck outta dodge card with preperation really lets you shine as a pvp rogue.  If griefing is your thing, ambush for teh win.  Improved Cheap Shot and Kidney shot will really let you widdle down casters as you then ALWAYS have something up that can interrupt spells (gouge, kick, and blind being the others).  And don't knock Imp. Expose Armor till you try it -- it actually lets you attack warriors and paladins with a hope of winning (also useful for big raids).

[Threash]

Improved kidney shot is really not that usefull, the timer on kidney shot as it is makes it so you avoid the dimishing results if you wait 1 second to use it again, reducing the recycle by 5 secs just makes it so it only stuns for half the time, then 25% then inmune.

[MrHat]

Improved kidney shot is really not that usefull, the timer on kidney shot as it is makes it so you avoid the dimishing results if you wait 1 second to use it again, reducing the recycle by 5 secs just makes it so it only stuns for half the time, then 25% then inmune.

You're thinking too small.  I just did pvp for 2 hours and I can guaruntee that even having KS up for a 1s stun is completely worth it.

[Ironwood]

My Plan :

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception
 Rank 5
 
Camouflage
 Rank 5
 
Subtlety Total:
 10
 
Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
 Rank 2
 
Lightning Reflexes
 Rank 5
 
Deflection
 Rank 5
 
Precision
 Rank 5
 
Riposte
 Rank 1
 
Improved Kick
 Rank 2
 
Dual Wield Specialization
 Rank 5
 
Blade Flurry
 Rank 1
 
Aggression
 Rank 3
 
Combat Total:
 29
 
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
 Rank 3
 
Malice
 Rank 5
 
Ruthlessness
 Rank 3
 
Relentless Strikes
 Rank 1
 
Assassination Total:
 12
 
Total
Total Points Spent:
 51
 
Level Required:
 60
 

 

[MrHat]

Ironwood, I would really take 2 points out of MoD and get Adreneline Rush.  It's a top notch skill.