New Patch. Bonus: Comes with free violin for paladins.

[Rasix]

I'll come back to WoW when they nerf the holy hell out of all shaman melee buffs.  How you can get off saying that SoC was overpowering but Windfury/Flurry is just fine?

I've fought many shaman that outdamaged any warrior and were almost up there w/ rogues in melee alone and when you add in shocks or god forbid insta cast lightning jesus the burst dps is stupid.

*shrug* pld healing or melee needed a nerf, no doubt about it, but I'm still waiting for all the racials but undead to get a boost and those shaman nerfs, any year now.

You've got to be kidding me.  If I stand toe to toe with any warrior or rogue or fuck, even a paladin, I'll get my ass handed to me in short order as long as they're not a complete fucking moron.  I only charge either of them for melee when I'm part of a larger attacking force. 

Any shaman that's building himself up flurry/windfurry is still going to get his ass kicked in melee and is going to be gimping himself when it comes to fighting casters or actually trying to be competitive with pure meleers or druids.   Instacast lightning is coming from nature's swiftness and that's 21 points in restoration (which they should get anyways) and it's going to be on a 3 minute timer.  Also any shaman that goes for a shock/ns/cl combo is going to be blowing his mana wad and get destroyed by the next person that engages.   Windfurry is just so highly sporadic that it's not something you overly rely on, but when it hits the results can be fantastic.   

I'm not sure what you can really nerf on a shaman.  I suppose you could take it to task with the melee buffs, but we're not strong enough casters to make up for it (lowering mana costs would help, it'd make it more of a rebalance than a nerf).   You can nerf some totems, but I'm not sure what you can do more to them (they're 5 hitpoints, ladies).  You can nerf damage on shocks but they're already some of the most mana inefficient spells we have.   Something sensible might be to lower the snare time on frostshock to something less than the cooldown time.

I dunno, I don't find myself overly powerful.  The class just feels.. right.   A well played anyone can take me down from experience, but a bad player is just going to get humiliated in short order against a shaman.

[Rasix]

I disagree with a lot of the stuff you said there Ras. I myself am a combat rogue, with a 15/31/5 build, and I do pretty damn well in PVP/PVE. With lots of agi gear and the crit talant in assassination I have a 25% chance to crit. I do not have cold blood. I use blade fury and adrenaline rush from the combat tree along with ss and evis.

Well, what I was posting was mostly to illustrate the two main rogue camp's debate.  I don't think they're the only way to go as you're showing that the a more combat oriented rogue without heavy assassination is also viable.  I don't think I'd ever pass up cold blood though.  A crit shot eviscerate is just fucking nasty damage.  It would be nice to have that my disposal whenever I wanted.  Of course, I have no actual experience (pvp) with this, this is all what I've read and played out in my mind.  Like playing my shaman, I could end up coming to a different conclusion.  Early with my shaman I was more of a melee shaman then realize that would just be a nice way to get mauled later on.

I would argue against splitting trees to much, there are some skills that are to good to pass up. If you are going to use a dagger, you need cold blood, casue crits are VERY important. Then you should also get improved sap, which is KEY for assassin rogues, casue you can sap some one from any side, and stay in stealth, that way while they are sapped, you can line up your ambush much easer. Also with assassin/sub spec you can some times hit ambush for 3 combo points, hit gouge for 1, then backstab for 1, then 5 point cold blood evis, all in about 4 seconds. its a REALLY nasty combo.

My build is going to be based upon getting 2 abilities, preparation and cold blood.  8 points in the middle for improved gouge, backstab and improved SS.  There's some wiggle room in this build.  I'll have to think more about how I want to adjust it based on actual experience with it.  Right now it's a 22/8/21 (well, when I get there).  I don't like really one tree heavy specs in any character I've played.  Being more balanced has really worked out well for my shaman (rest/ele with 10 in enhance).

Anyhow, here's what my current planned ambush build is. I like it because it's flexible and there's some points to play around with in subtlety.  I think assassination and combat are really where I like them.

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Camouflage   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Initiative   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 1
Preparation   Rank 1
Subtlety Total:   22
Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge   Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Improved Backstab   Rank 3
Combat Total:   8
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 1
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:

Combat rogues are much more geared to take out other melee classes, while assassin rogues are better at soft targets.

Feel free to PM me if you want to hop on my vent server and talk about rogue speccs some time.

With mine I want to be able to take down the soft targets fast but also have some added flexibility.    Maybe I'll hop on the vent server, but again, must of my speculation is merely that.  I'm primarily a shaman and have pvp'd with that character exclusively.   Not sure what I have practically to add to the conversation.

Sorry for geeking out a tad too much in this thread. Pallies suck.

[Hoax]

Rasix I can only speak from my experiences which involve wearing cloth...

But let me tell you, calling Windfury + Flurry sporadic is just horseshit imo, thats the excuse all shaman give me for the rediculous dmg output I can post ss after ss of.   Now I might be bitter because purge > priests and I was uber rigged vrs any other class (pld included) in a 1v1 fight.  But I'm going to keep bitching because its fun and it makes me feel good.  I'd like to meet a mana efficient class in WoW untill the current spirit mana regen rule is re-worked EVERYONE runs out of mp its just a question of how fast and what can you do when its gone?

Aimed shots critting for 1600+ = rare
Cold Blood evis critting for 900+ = automatic almost
WF + Flurry shaman dealing great melee dmg comprable to a warrrior if not a rogue (oh and did I mention shock spells are incredible?) = 50/50 AT WORST, I refuse to give you less then that, and frankly on Archimonde it was more like 75/25 from my experiences.

Now any time your not setting out to test this sort of thing my speculation is worth about as much as a Blizzard rep saying "information has been forwarded to the dev team" but I still find it rediculous that people act like the Palladin melee damage was so unheard of when Shaman most definately do just as much and it comes in burst form which is 20 times more usefull then sustained dps in pvp.

Now nobody likes the class that is the "paper" to their "rock" but I have seen shaman put some rediculous freaking numbers on me.  Of course I'm off the opinion the weakness of blizzard's class balance comes from the fact that crits are like EVERYTHING in pvp... 

I'm done w/ my rant, just come on, next your going to tell me that healing wave is useless, I'll trade you heal or great heal for it...   

[Rasix]

I'm done w/ my rant, just come on, next your going to tell me that healing wave is useless, I'll trade you heal or great heal for it...   

Healing wave kinda sucks unless you have nature's swiftness. With it, it's an instant 1500 heal that crits for well over 2200. 

Lesser healing wave is golden though.  75% of not being interupted, 1.5 sec cast time and will crit for over 1500. 

And yah, Windfurry on a cloth caster is brutal.  I think somehow the crit rate on windfurry is a bit broken, because quite often I'll crit or double crit on it.  But even if not, the two attacks are coming in with some massive attack power added on.  Add on that I can interupt a caster with earth shock, absorb a spell with grounding totem, purge their buffs, etc.  A one on one situation is not something a cloth wearer generally wants to get in with me.

[Dren]

I'm beginning to feel that if DE's were able to become Paladins, Rasix would piss blood.

[Toast]

Nerf-retaliation threads do not really jibe with the spirit of this board and community. Paladins got what everyone knew was coming. I don't see how Shaman or rogue balancing entered the picture

It stings, yes, but resist the urge to lash out at other classes.

[schild]

Toast is right. You don't want to be labeled fanbois? Do you?

[murdoc]

HEAVEN FORBID

[MrHat]

I've tried all sorts of different builds but found that:

Cold Blood:  Being able to control when to unleash 1500 damage is key to pvp.
Imp Sap:  Awesome skill for PvE.  Really helps out groups and lets you feel like something other than damagebotsupreme.  For PvP I've found the skill to be excellent to draw masses of people away from your retreating troops.  I like to imagine the chat window when the priest gets sapped and everyone runs back to find out what the hell is going on.
Preperation:  I was fine as a rogue when I didn't have it.  But this coupled with the skill that reduces your timers makes you much more versatile.

I mainly use cheapshot in group PvP because there's an element of lag that prevents me from landing ambushes reliably.  3 combo points from CB, ss, and drop a CB Evis and then vanish and repeat and you can kill anyone you want pretty quick.

Watch out for priests though, insta fear = death for a rogue.

[schild]

HEAVEN FORBID

This was the last time fanbois invaded f13. I was but ONE of the people crucifying them. Sure, WoW is already out, but same story, blah blah blah.

[WayAbvPar]

HEAVEN FORBID

This was the last time fanbois invaded f13. I was but ONE of the people crucifying them. Sure, WoW is already out, but same story, blah blah blah.

Sweet baby Jesus, I had forgotten what a True Believer Preston sounded like. And then admits on the 2nd page that he has never played it. Heh.

[Strazos]

I don't have a lot of hate for Warlocks or Rogues, especially when it comes to PvP. Sure, they solo tons better than my Warrior, but I would expect that. In PvP though, things even out a lot. I would consistently rape Warlocks, especially after I got Intercept.

How did you get past chain fear?

Big nasty 2hders, Charge/Intercept, Beserk, and Shield Bash (using CosmosUI for quick gear swapping really helps). Also, I was an Arms warrior, with (I believe) maxed-out criticals and maxed-out Gouge (or whatever the warrior DoT was). Warlocks and Rogues have paltry  HP and AC.

[Rasix]

HEAVEN FORBID

This was the last time fanbois invaded f13. I was but ONE of the people crucifying them. Sure, WoW is already out, but same story, blah blah blah.

You know, we could easily throw this back at everyone over the perenial hardon some of you have for CoH. 

Really, if you don't like the game, you don't have to read this forum.

[murdoc]

It'd be terrible to have "fanbois" here

[schild]

It'd be terrible to have "fanbois" here

Arguing against a system that I've BOUGHT and beaten over 80% of it's releases is a little different. I've bought my right to bitch and moan. And if the PSP turns out to be total shite, I'll bitch and moan about that too. Probably even more considering it costs 65% more - for the system alone.

[Rasix]

Que?

[Strazos]

Puerdo ir al Bano, Por Favor?

[Hoax]

Hey I liked WoW enough to level to 54 (I dont even play on weekends so thats an accomplishment in my book).  I haven't been able to stand a level based game enough to get past 40 prior (AO - played at release, was a pistol adv | EQ - played on e'ci 2 yrs in, played a shaman, Lake of Ill Omen = quit, DAOC - I played a blademaster, nuff said).

So yeah I like WoW, the way they tricked me (because I wanted to believe) into thinking they would have a true pvp system has hurt my feelings. But I'll get over it and go back eventually for sure.

I just get confused when people say "oh yeah, pld's now there was a class that needed a nerf" and yet shaman run around critting me 4 times in 3 weapon swings and casting the best insta nukes in the game.  I saw the pld nerf as blizzard saying hybrid classes should do less melee dmg, we're not going to touch their spells or their armor but they are all going to do more druid level damage in melee.  Then I looked at my ss's of WF+Flurry pain, then I thought about it, then I said "wtf" and posted.

I not fanboi or anti w/ WoW to my understanding of the terms.  I accept the reality that its the most well made persistent world, but it only does well the things they bothered to try. In that department Blizzard failed to take even a tiny step outside the box.  If anything they did things the american way and just made the EQ clone even more idiot proof...

[Calantus]

The Paladin nerf (if it was a nerf, they say it's a bug fix but I don't care enough to decide what I think) wasn't an indication that they want hybrids to do less damage. Paladins are the defencive hybrid, shamans are the offencive hybrid. Druids are the middle-of-the-road hybrid I guess.

Also, don't ever base nerf calls on 1v1 battles. The classes are horribly, horribly imbalanced in 1v1 PVP and Blizzard knows it. This is why they supposedly have a policy that they will not balance for 1v1 PVP which is a damn good idea IMO because it's just too hard to balance 1v1 PVP and not fuck with group-based PvE in a big way. Shamans for instance are very close to an anti-caster, priests in particular have alot of trouble with them. Alot of Paladin nerfs came from warriors, rogues, and healers. The fact is that Paladins are basically melee killers. You can beat them, but they really have the advantage. As for healers they bitch because paladins last forever and can't finish the fight either so the fights last forever. Then the whole free horse and everybody-else-is-doing-it sets their mind afire for nerf calls.

Personally the only way I've found to beat Paladins is to fear them out of the arena. In reality they have no real way to combat it. I've yet to meet a paladin that can kill me fast enough, and if they stay in the middle I just MC them closer to me as I stand at the edge. All it takes is a few attempts and eventually they "run" from me. Many a paladin has blown up in anger when I do this to them, but it's their fault for starting one of the most boring-ass duels in WoW. I guess it might be possible to kill a paladin, but I'll be damned if I'm going to try for 10-15 minutes like other healers supposedly do.

Also, duels are a stupid diversion. If you like them that's fine, but people take them way too seriously and think that the whole game should be rebalanced so they can duel anyone and have at least a 50% chance to win against an equally skilled opponent.

[Riggswolfe]

One of my characters is a Paladin and I will tell you right now:

Unless you play a warrior or rogue you will not lose to a Paladin if you're a smart player. Period. If you play any other class and you lose to a Paladin, pre or post nerf you will be laughed at by competent players. So stop the whining about God mode and all that bullshit. Paladins are awesome in PvE, (Though mindnumbingly slow) but they are horrible in PvP. All they can do is try to outlast their opponents. Warriors are gimped so we can beat them. Rogues are soft so we can beat them. Any class with range can beat a Paladin down without breaking a sweat if the player has a single brain cell. Even Priests. (Actually, alot of paladins I know live in fear of priests in PvP.)

[Calantus]

I have exactly 0 talents in doing shadow damage (I specced shadow for silence), which means that while I may be able to eventually win I will not be doing so any time soon and I really cbf'd trying. Really it's the same for any healer/healer hybrid. If they aren't a retard the fight is gonna last a while and I just don't have the patience. The Paladin is especially bad because it's practically impossible for me to screw up and get myself killed. Hence the fear tactic.

I've also had a Paladin so don't think I don't know how it is. I do however hate the shield. I'd rather have an ability like sprint to get away from bad PVE battles as then I'd have something that could get me away from PVP, or get me to the enemy. I'd rather have something like nature's swiftness for the ability to instantly heal. I'd rather have some more variety in offencive abilities and some appreciable burst DPS. As an opponent to a Paladin I'd rather they just fricking die so I'm not stuck in the damn fight for so long. All round it's an ugly, ugly ability for anything other than group PVP and there I think I'd still prefer NS.

[Kageru]

My rogue alt is 16 at the moment, and I'm really glad I got my warrior to 60 before I started it. The rogue class is active, deadly and the talent system is packed full of goodness begging to be a part of some synergistic combo of doom. And they're actually pretty resilient too, as a warrior I've been lugging around boots with +1 dodge. Having a class with a 26% base dodge and lots of ways to pump it up is delightftul. I feel powerful.

Paladins did need a fix, some of the DPS numbers I've seen posted for SotC are just way out of wack with what a tank class should be doing. Especially a tank class with substantial group utility outside of melee tanking. However I understand it must be a terrible shock for them to drop down to where a lot of warriors have been since release. A relatively passive class that feels slow and sluggish as a soloist.

To me the real test will be the next "real" patch (www.patchtimer.org). That will be the one that might give an insight into what their class balancing strategy will e like.

[Margalis]

I hate it when people say they are fixing bugs. Or as Blizzard says "blah was not working as intended."

Intentions are meaningless. Once you release it, you are changing the behavior. Whether or not that is a fix of a technical bug, or a logical problem, or whatever, it doesn't really matter.

That isn't just true of game software. At my company we've gotten into trouble once or twice by doing things we thought were CLEARLY bug fixes and then having customers tell us they relied upon or like the old behavior.

Once it's in the hands of the customers, it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

I would also say that most MMORPG have as many logical bugs as technical bugs anyway.

[Riggswolfe]

Paladins did need a fix, some of the DPS numbers I've seen posted for SotC are just way out of wack with what a tank class should be doing. Especially a tank class with substantial group utility outside of melee tanking. However I understand it must be a terrible shock for them to drop down to where a lot of warriors have been since release. A relatively passive class that feels slow and sluggish as a soloist.

Except the DPS numbers were bugged. Especially if you were getting them from that POS Cosmos. There were large threads with comprehensive testing done that showed the actual damage wasn't what the DPS numbers showed but was below it. These were ignored of course. I don't much care. I just switched to Seal of Command. I just get tired of the whining and blatant lies put forth by those wishing to nerf Paladins.

[Threash]

I don't understand the paladin hate, ive played both horde and alliance to fairly high levels and i never thought they where all that powerfull.  If there is a class with godmode in this game its shamans closely followed by shadow priests.  I would put paladins fourth after those two classes and rogues in the pvp power scale.  A class with no range attack or snare is a class you don't ever have to worry about losing too.

[Rasix]

I think they're talking about the shield + insta full health thing when they mention GODMODE.  You know, having 8 people beat on you in pvp, hitting an instant ability and PRESTO: out of trouble and full health.  It's quite the bitch in large scale pvp, to the point that I have to casually remind people to let the paladin and his pathetic damage output wait until more of the soft targets are down.  I can imagine it's pretty much equates to near invincibility in pve, although at a rather boring clip.  I never found paladins overly powerful, just overly fucking annoying. 

Shaman, godmode? HAH.  I'd have to HAH at shadow priests only (due to shredding some in pvp).  I lose my fair share in PVP (people need to learn how to play their damn classes though, jesus) and quite frankly in some of the higher level instance situations I'm finding myself less than optimal.  Try solo healing Iron Highway in BRD as a shaman. LOTS OF FUN.  Just pray you don't have an idiot in your group, you'll be wiping on every other dwarf pull.

EDIT: I think we need to give the game a bit more time to mature before we start with the PVP/PVE nerfs/rebalance.  First they need to fix the bugs with the classes (some have serveral).  Let people play for a while so player skill somewhat matures.  Maybe even introduce the battlegrounds. Then start the rebalancing act.  A lot of the gripes I see are just people not knowing how to play their class (here's a hint asswipes, don't fight me like a mob) or obvious bugs that still haven't been fixed (Seal Fate bug with rogues, this seal snafu with paladins). I'm just eagerly awaiting nerfs to the two classes I play based on knee jerk reactions based upon a facet of the game that just hasn't fully matured yet.

[Threash]

I don't think shamans are meant to be main healers any more than paladins are, it sure helps to have one backing a druid or priest though.  I don't see why anyone would bother with the iron highway in brd after their first time there, that fire guy has shitty loot and thats the most annoying part of the zone before the lycaeum.  I see what you meant about godmode though, i still think shamans and priests and rogues where more powerfull in pvp than paladins pre nerf(fix).  I play a rogue and while i don't feel overpowered i can admit im in the top 3 pvp classes.

[Rasix]

Yah, I know that about BRD. I tried to explain it to the group but they got a tad pig headed over it.  For me though, it was just an illustration of the limits of my class. Where a priest or perhaps druid could solo it even with a few hiccups, but a shaman's just on the razor's edge the entire time.

Shaman, played by a competent player is probably the best class in PVP.  Hands down.  Solo, it can come down to serveral factors (many classes can beat us), but in a large or group situation they can just destroy.  Paladins just raw survivability though is unmatched and unfettered by anything anyone can do (outside of just ignoring the paladins and saving them for mop up time).  It'll probably get looked at some point or another, which will be unfortunate. Who knows, with this current fix maybe they're right at where they're supposed to be in the eyes of Blizzard. 

[Calantus]

Yeah I hate the nerf calls because people suck too. I have not lost a single duel to anyone but my brother (and only him now that he has anti-fear abilities) and a number of times I just know that I would have lost if my opponent had the skill required. Infact, I'd go so far as to say we've never lost an even battle and have won a number of uneven ones as well. It just pisses me off sometimes, I like PVP for the thrill of beating something smarter than a mob and instead get to beat up on people who don't know shit about how to PVP despite being on a PVP server. Then I think how they're the ones who try to call nerfs and it just makes me mad.

[Riggswolfe]

  Paladins just raw survivability though is unmatched and unfettered by anything anyone can do (outside of just ignoring the paladins and saving them for mop up time).  It'll probably get looked at some point or another, which will be unfortunate.

See this is what pisses me off so badly about the Paladin haters. Most of them when they are being honest don't say Paladins destroy them. Or that Paladins own in PvP. What they say is Paladins are annoying because they are hard to kill. Here's a hint, when you leave a class to kill last because it's just an annoyance, it's not over powered and it sure as  hell doesn't have a Godmode.

[stray]

Before I quit, I was in the process of making a Holy/Protection paladin, knowing retribution would be nerfed sooner or later. Is there anything in the patches from Jan-Feb that would ruin of my chances of that working OK (sorry if it's been asked before, I haven't kept up)? I liked priests, but a near indestructible healer is much more appealing, regardless if his heals are weaker or not

On a sidenote, such a character is pretty useless without a dependable guild or group for PvP, and definitely no fun xping alone with. Who's playing Alliance characters these days (on a PvP server)?

[Kageru]

It was a fix until some paladin actually shows some parsing indicating otherwise. The intent was +40% haste balanced against less damage per swing with any overall DPS bonus coming from the ATK boost. It's roughly equivalent to the warrior skill of battle shout but a lot less annoying to keep up. However blizzard stated it was adding +40% haste and a damage bonus per attack.

The godmode thing is blizzard screwing up their PvP/PvE balance. In PvE I don't see it as an issue because the paladin will, I assume, lose aggro if they shield which acts as a dis-incentive to use it since they're one of the more durable classes. Of course in PvP where aggro is irrelevant and focused range fire is the primary danger it's massively powerful. Even the few battles I've observed it's been obvious how much freedom it gives the paladins to be agressive with pushing the enemy, unlike warriors where doing an aggressive push recreates something a lot like a light cavalry charge into entrenched machine guns. Nor do I see some simple way for blizzard to balance it so that it is useful but not overpowering in both modes.

The patch will be intriguing.... eventually.

[Samprimary]

Shaman, played by a competent player is probably the best class in PVP.  Hands down. 

I believe this to be true, as the functionality that they have in PvP as part of groups is insane.

The two buttons that get the most action out of me in group PvP are the eversnare (L1 Frost Shock) and purge.

And Chain Lightning has a sinister side: one night we joined five shaman in a group at a huge battle at Tarren Mill just because we wanted to have fun with all five of us hitting the same target with Chain Lightning at once, and see how cool it looked with five arcs spreading inside the enemy lines. It turned out to be way more devestating than one would expect. Five strikes in, the Alliance group which outnumbered and outleveled us found itself getting routed.

And any alliance rout finds itself accompanied by frost shock. Plus, purge is ever-helpful as a 30yd instacast that brings a target back into combat mode and prevents mounting, as well as being capable of purging all but ONE of the Paladin's invul. shields.

[Jayce]

On a sidenote, such a character is pretty useless without a dependable guild or group for PvP, and definitely no fun xping alone with. Who's playing Alliance characters these days (on a PvP server)?

I'm playing with a group of friends on Sargeras Alliance. Bonus: if you join us, at some point you may be killed by Morphiend (Horde on the same server).

PM me if you are interested in joining our merry band.

[stray]

Heh, I had (have) characters on Sargeras that were in Morphiend's guild. You sure you'd want to accept a traitor? 

Seriously though, I didn't stay on Sargeras long, but I think it was one of the only servers that I had Horde characters. I might as well keep 'em there. Thanks for the offer though.

EDIT: Anyways, how common are Holy disc Paladins these days? I figured a backlines healer like that would be the shit. Is there something I'm missing?