Memory and Recall

[Sheepherder]

I should clarify, in case anybody took it the wrong way, he was joking and not serious when he said that.  He was a hilarious old smart ass ex minor league baseball player who was one of the only openly liberal teahers in my very conservative town.  He actually used that line to comically goad the dumb preppy chicks in the back of class, who made everybody well aware they hated history and the teacher, into taking part in the discussion on womens rights.  It was rather funny watching them unable to articulate exactly why they deserved the right to vote (and kind of scary).

Freshman year of high school, the mandatory grade nine history class, first day: our teacher has a special guest: the head of the history department.

He walks in with his fucking ridiculous combover, and eccentric mannerisms.  He introduces himself, has every student's name memorized, and asks what everyone's parents have done after graduating from his classes.  Not in general.  He knows the name of every fucking student's parents, when they attended high school, and can recount details about them.  Effortlessly.  We were shitting motherfucking bricks.

Dude was even more fucking serious about history.  He knew it.  All of it.  And he kept current.  And every day he'd segue seamlessly from twin towers to fucking Mongols somehow.

[Ironwood]

If there was something I'd give my right arm for, it'd be a photographic memory.

[Nebu]

Ah... the good old days.  When people did what they were passionate about rather than what paid the most.  

That's one of the beautiful things about working at a University.  I see many more people pursuing their passions than chasing a dollar.

If there was something I'd give my right arm for, it'd be a photographic memory.

I agree.  I went to medical school with my ex wife and her brain was amazing.  The woman could memorize a 600 page textbook effortlessly right down to the captions on the figures.

Shit was amazing to behold.

[Cyrrex]

Wow, you would really have to watch what you said around someone like that.

"I never said that"

"actually, let me tell you everything you said last Thursday before lunch time, verbatim..."

[Nebu]

Wow, you would really have to watch what you said around someone like that.

[ghost]

He did say "ex wife".   

[apocrypha]

Having a truly photographic memory would be more of a curse than a benefit I suspect, unless you managed to develop a really good set of internal controls for organising the memories.

Read "Funes the Memorious" by Jorge Luis Borges, if for no other reason than that it's really good!

[MuffinMan]

The correct term you are looking for is "eidetic memory."

[Ironwood]

I know, but I wasn't gonna be a cunt about it.

[bhodi]

Memory is something I've always found very interesting, mostly because mine is lousy (which started me researching) and because I also noticed a wide disparity in how well people recall things that doesn't seem to correlate with anything else.

There has been a lot of research done in techniques for improving memory and recall, though the bulk of the research was "completed" in the 15th century and has been in a decline ever since, ending with only stage performers and self-help books actively using the techniques that were pioneered in that age.

You probably remember Silence of the Lambs with Hannibal mentioning his Memory Palace, which is one of the things taught.


It's all mystifying to me, since it's something everyone uses every day of their life. I looked into it a bit, and apparently some aspects are still being taught in 'learning to learn' college prep classes, but that's about it. As far as I know, there hasn't been any real scientific study on the efficacy of any of the techniques in the last 50 years. Which is, as I said, strange. It seems like codifying a system for the 20th century would be really beneficial.

It would be for me, since I struggle even after doing all the research and practice. Also I am splitting this off because I can.

[Lantyssa]

I can give a goldfish a run for its money.  Unfortunately goldfish tend to not have a lot of cash.

[MuffinMan]

I know, but I wasn't gonna be a cunt about it.

[MahrinSkel]

If there was something I'd give my right arm for, it'd be a photographic memory.

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the ass it is to remember a conversation from 1-2 years earlier verbatim, and have someone not only *not* remember it, but be absolutely positive you have to be making it up?  Trust me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Although my memory isn't literally photographic (not even visual, really), I've always had a quirk for remembering conversations.  Even when I can't remember the name of the person that I had it with.  I hate to think of how cluttered my mind would get if you threw pictures in there, too.

--Dave

[Ironwood]

I have no idea.

But I'd like to find out.

I'm like Lantyssa these days.  I've learned so much, I am almost 100% sure that things are falling out my brain.  Like Mr Sayle, I'm one day worried that I'll learn a new IP Address only to find I've forgotten how to walk.

[Ironwood]

I know, but I wasn't gonna be a cunt about it.

No, but if you don't mind I'm going to keep that picture.

[Ghambit]

I have a memory audiobook from the world's best "memory man."  His techniques are pretty much the most effective as last I've checked (though I'm sure there's newer); leading to himself being ousted from the world championships (the best use his techniques).  I do recommend getting an audiobook rather than text for something like this as the whole system works better when learned aural and visually.
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Memory-Power-Improve-Champion/dp/0743528662

You then supplement with workbooks to exercise your skillz.

I find I have fairly strong subjective recall but the classical 'photographic memory' isnt there.  Really, there likely is no such thing in any human that isnt a perceptual savant.  'Eidetic memory' means the person literally can recall any mental image in exact detail and context; not just lists or basic context of imagery or subject (which can be trained).  Literally, eidetic means you can take a pile of random dots on a screen and rebuild them years later in exactitude.  So yah, doesn't really exist.

Memory really works in 'chunks' of info. rather than brute force exactitude.  You recall a face fuzzily, maybe a funny nose, then strange clothes, maybe the weather, and so on until you fill in the entire scene.  Any scene you can turn into a list, which can then be parsed creatively, is a scene you can remember w/o fear of blowing up your brain.

Eventually you'll develop a dBase of stuff that generally applies to most everything and you just link the features creatively.  This way you dont need to remember each separate instance of everything in exactitude... you're only remembering similar pieces that are put together differently. Managed code for the mind so to speak.  

[Ironwood]

  You recall a face fuzzily, maybe a funny nose, then strange clothes, maybe the weather.

Well, yes, but I drink heavily.

[Ingmar]

It seems to me that even if you thought you had perfect recall you could never really be sure you were right. I mean, I've had conversations with my dad, his brother, and his sister, where they all 3 vividly remember the same incident from their childhood in 3 different contradictory ways, and they're all utterly convinced that their memory is the correct one.

[Ironwood]

Marge Simpson: You liked "Rashomon".
Homer Simpson: That's not how I remember it.

[01101010]

It seems to me that even if you thought you had perfect recall you could never really be sure you were right. I mean, I've had conversations with my dad, his brother, and his sister, where they all 3 vividly remember the same incident from their childhood in 3 different contradictory ways, and they're all utterly convinced that their memory is the correct one.

Sounds like a hell of a game of Clue.

[Yegolev]

Marge Simpson: You liked "Rashomon".
Homer Simpson: That's not how I remember it.

Excellent.

[Ghambit]

It seems to me that even if you thought you had perfect recall you could never really be sure you were right. I mean, I've had conversations with my dad, his brother, and his sister, where they all 3 vividly remember the same incident from their childhood in 3 different contradictory ways, and they're all utterly convinced that their memory is the correct one.

I supposeyou could checksum yourself by maintaining the same memory in different ways.  For instance I could change your appearance into a creative number list and a then perhaps just use the words themselves in a story.  If both yield the same result, voila.

You could even insert one memory within the other as a self-check.  Maybe in the story the number list (representing the same image) pops up.  And so on.

[01101010]

I supposeyou could checksum yourself by maintaining the same memory in different ways.  For instance I could change your appearance into a creative number list and a then perhaps just use the words themselves in a story.  If both yield the same result, voila.

You could even insert one memory within the other as a self-check.  Maybe in the story the number list (representing the same image) pops up.  And so on.

I am way too lazy for that shit. Just reading your memory stuff makes me want to take a nap.

[Ghambit]

I've been trying to get my little brother to develop these habits before he gets too old.  It's a lot like learning another language.
He reacts the same way.  Nap or "hey, let's play HALO!"   

I guess having what amounts to a 'superhuman power' (that'll eventually land him in any college he wants if applied right) isn't enough.

[Nebu]

Memorization is all that most college students can do.  Thinking is fast becoming a lost skill.

Want to help your little brother?  Teach him to think and use common sense.  He'll outshine everyone. If he develops a work ethic, he'll be in the top 2%

[Ghambit]

 The type of memorization you're talking about that 'most college students' can do is typically pumping themselves full of coffee and Adderall, cramming, and then spewing out info. just before a test... in between tweets and wikitrolling. Totally different animal, but I feel ya.

[01101010]

I always found my students learned and recalled much better when I let them think up scenarios and examples of types of crime and deviance that I would explain with the theories I was teaching in that section. Of course that meant white board only teaching... and it seems some of these instructors and profs fall to pieces without a PowerPoint presentation and cruise control lectures.

I actually got the influence to teach like this from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhbqIJZ8wCM

[Nebu]

I always found my students learned and recalled much better when I let them think up scenarios and examples of types of crime and deviance that I would explain with the theories I was teaching in that section. Of course that meant white board only teaching... and it seems some of these instructors and profs fall to pieces without a PowerPoint presentation and cruise control lectures.

It helps that you teach a subject where that works. 

Try using scenarios when teaching quantum mechanics or group theory. 

[Yegolev]

I was purposely taught to not memorize math outside various axioms and principles.  Basically I was taught to remember how math works instead of whateverthefuck seven times nine is.  Of course, that makes me look like a dumbass when I can't answer what seven times nine is, but I look pretty smart in other situations.

Some things I have learned about memory include the fact that there is a finite amount of it, and that you modify a memory whenever you recall it.  If you want to be sure, use a recording device.

[Selby]

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the ass it is to remember a conversation from 1-2 years earlier verbatim, and have someone not only *not* remember it, but be absolutely positive you have to be making it up?  Trust me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Exactly.  It is quite annoying.  My mom and dad always used to tell me that I was just making things up, growing up being told that just because you "think" you remember something vividly from when you were 3 or 4 doesn't mean you really do when I know I did is aggravating.

[Viin]

I've actually been looking into memory stuff lately too. Started using Lumosity (http://www.lumosity.com/), which has some pretty interesting "games" to help with your memory. The ones I'm bad at make me want to stop though, which is the wrong reaction.   The face/name puzzle is probably the best one for me to be using.

I have a fairly photographic memory (I can recall most things I've seen .. text, figures, pictures or scenes) and so I'm good at faces but awful at names. (There's no name floating over everyone's head! wtf!) But lately I've found myself forgetting times/dates of upcoming events or what I specifically said yesterday on topic Y.

My mom is convinced that the aspartame/etc in diet soda is terrible for your brain, so I've cut that out and it seems to be helping after a couple of weeks of little to no diet crap.

[Ghambit]

Any sugar-based crap will ruin your concentration.

[Hammond]

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the ass it is to remember a conversation from 1-2 years earlier verbatim, and have someone not only *not* remember it, but be absolutely positive you have to be making it up?  Trust me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

--Dave

Gah I know exactly how much of a pain in the ass this is. I have gotten to the point that I just have to bite my tongue if people steer the conversation in a different direction.  People do not like to be reminded that they remembered things different than the way I do.  I can remember conversations, emails, books and faces but for the life of me I cannot remember peoples names. 

[Jeff Kelly]

There is a drawback to eidetic memory, a similar drawback that absolute pitch and other memory and recall related tasks have.

Since the brain of the person is that good at being exact (remembering exactly, hearing exactly etc.) it's less good at things that aren't exact or have to be inferred by reasoning or inferrence . It's great at absolutes less so on relatives. The capability for reasoning and for drawing conclusions, especially reasoning by analogy or similar mental tasks are somewhat diminished.

Basically like certain types of pupils in school those brains are so great at remembering and recalling things exactly as learned or experienced that they neglect the part that is responsible for inference and reasoning by analogy. E.g. putting those absolute values into a relative context or inferring relationship rules from those absolute values.

With absolute pitch studies have shown for example, that people with this mental knack have more difficulties than other people when the relationship between the tones stays the same but the absolute values change (when you transpose a song for example) since the brain relies on the actual pitch more than on the relationship between the sounds.

Having perfect relative pitch is actually much more useful. It's a similar thing with a truly eidetic memory.

[Strazos]

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the ass it is to remember a conversation from 1-2 years earlier verbatim, and have someone not only *not* remember it, but be absolutely positive you have to be making it up?  Trust me, it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

--Dave

Yes, to the point where I sometimes have to ask myself why I remember these seemingly useless bits of information...though it's been failing a bit in places lately. Perhaps it's the mefloquine, or just fatigue.