NFL 2012

[ghost]

It just took the right coach and the right talent around him to get there.

And a seriously badass defense.

[ghost]

Good god the refs are terrible in this Broncos/Falcons game.  Matt Ryan looks like the real deal tonight though. 

[Paelos]

I'm having a hard time taking this game seriously. There's been no momentum because the refs can't get out of the way.

[ghost]

Did you see that pass interference call on Denver where the guy wasn't even within 3 yards of the guy from the Falcons?

The NFL just needs to get over their shit and get the real refs back on the field.

[Paelos]

Or the 4 mis-spots. Or the time they threw a flag on John Fox and picked it up. Or having to take 2 fucking hours to get through a half. OR NOT KNOWING DEFENSIVE HOLDING ISN'T 10 YARDS IN THE NFL.

I mean if this doesn't do it, nothing will.

[Viin]

OR NOT KNOWING DEFENSIVE HOLDING ISN'T 10 YARDS IN THE NFL.

Heh, its not? I had no idea.

[ghost]

We should sign you up to ref.  You'd fit right in.   

[cmlancas]

The thing that drives me crazy is I'm going on six years refereeing rec football and *I* know the fucking rules better than them.

God forbid of something crazy like first touching happens.

/soapboxoff

I will say pressure can make even good officials stumble every now and then.  I've choked up a time or two when I knew the rule but wasn't able to articulate it quickly.

That being said, I'd like to see the TB game replayed with refs that weren't miserable.  The no call on the blatant helmet to helmet on Vincent Jackson was unreal and the reversal of the Williams catch when he braces himself for a hit was just insane.

[sickrubik]

OR NOT KNOWING DEFENSIVE HOLDING ISN'T 10 YARDS IN THE NFL.

Heh, its not? I had no idea.

It's 5 yards and an automatic first down.

[01101010]

The thing that drives me crazy is I'm going on six years refereeing rec football and *I* know the fucking rules better than them.

God forbid of something crazy like first touching happens.

/soapboxoff

I will say pressure can make even good officials stumble every now and then.  I've choked up a time or two when I knew the rule but wasn't able to articulate it quickly.

That being said, I'd like to see the TB game replayed with refs that weren't miserable.  The no call on the blatant helmet to helmet on Vincent Jackson was unreal and the reversal of the Williams catch when he braces himself for a hit was just insane.

More telling is the players and coaches manipulating the game for their benefit. Win the game on the field, not debating with the officials. Integrity has to come first, and right now... that is THE flashpoint. If I am a coach and see that all I have to do is debate a call and use the official to pick up the flag or throw one, then the rules become arbitrary.

[ghost]

Yeah, the refs have been quick to succumb to complaining/whining by the players.  It's rather pathetic.

[Paelos]

I can't watch this product.

I turned off the game after the opening of the second half because it was so stupid. There's a reason the NFL standings are so bizarre right now, and it has very little to do with the play on the field. Anybody with terrible corners and offensive lines are winning games because holds are going completely uncalled. Anybody who lacks large receivers and TE's is getting murdered. Speed offenses are getting held up by slow calls and reversals and reviews.

[naum]

I can't watch this product.

I turned off the game after the opening of the second half because it was so stupid. There's a reason the NFL standings are so bizarre right now, and it has very little to do with the play on the field. Anybody with terrible corners and offensive lines are winning games because holds are going completely uncalled. Anybody who lacks large receivers and TE's is getting murdered. Speed offenses are getting held up by slow calls and reversals and reviews.

It not just that -- the ref huddle-ups after every other play. The auto-reviews of every scoring play and turnover (yes I know it is theoretically a sound notion, but the NFL overlords need to make it a snappier process). The touchbacks and extended commercial breaks (now so evident that I do not subscribe to DirecTV NFL package).

I tuned in to watch the Steelers at 1:30PM and there was 20 minutes later that I got to see the doubleheader game -- as the preceding game, without OT, went for 3:45. Simply ridiculous. The Steeler v. Jet game 1st quarter was almost expired.

Even the regular refs are plagued with inconsistency. Touching Brady or Manning after they release the ball is almost an automatic roughing call but it's not called so much on the rest of the NFL QB field. Receivers and defensive backs jockey all along the route, but it rare that interference/holding is called.

And the helmet hitting is going to spoil some good games as if it is called as it happens, it going to happen a lot, even when a defensive player has no intent whatsoever to plant a helmet hit. It just a consequence of the speed of the game that being agressive and trying to make a play is going to result in helmet application on some occasions, no matter the caution (and if too much restraint is employed, that diminished agression is certainly going to mean a much less effective defense).

[ghost]

Yeah, when you're playing with that intensity and at that speed there will be unavoidable issues like helmet-to-helmets and facemasks.

After watching last night's game I think I'm probably not going to watch any more until the real refs come back.  It's just too painful to sit through.

[cmlancas]

And the helmet hitting is going to spoil some good games as if it is called as it happens, it going to happen a lot, even when a defensive player has no intent whatsoever to plant a helmet hit. It just a consequence of the speed of the game that being agressive and trying to make a play is going to result in helmet application on some occasions, no matter the caution (and if too much restraint is employed, that diminished agression is certainly going to mean a much less effective defense).

I am shocked that you believe this true.  There is a strike zone, if you will, for hits.  The speed of the game doesn't factor into this.  Go watch the helmet to helmets that incur fines from the league.  Watch the hit on Sunday on Vincent Jackson.  It's so blatant and intentional that Troy Aikman and Joe Buck practically shit themselves.  Watch the hits from James Harrison.  They are clearly leading with the helmet.

Look, you lead with the shoulder and helmets knock together?  Speed of the game and all that.  But, a less effective defense?  If so, you're a dirty team looking to take someone out of a game. We're talking concussions and permanent life-altering events here.   

[Paelos]

A lot of why I enjoy the NFL is the that games feature faster players with better schemes going against tougher defenses. I also enjoy betting on the games that don't have a team I regularly watch so I have some interest in the outcome. I can't do either of those things with the reffing situation right now, which means I'm done watching until it gets resolved.

[cmlancas]

Yeah, when you're playing with that intensity and at that speed there will be unavoidable issues like helmet-to-helmets and facemasks.

Facemasks sure, helmet-to-helmet, no.  Helmet to helmet is only a penalty as described here:

http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12/27/definition-of-a-defenseless-player/

We're talking about defenseless players here, folks.  A hit like that is never unavoidable.  You're lying to yourself if a MLB or S coming over the middle doesn't think SportsCenter when a WR goes over the middle.  And, to be completely honest, they should.  Because, if they make a legal form tackle, they can really lay a good lick on a guy. 

[ghost]

I've seen several called recently that weren't "defenseless players". 

[naum]

And the helmet hitting is going to spoil some good games as if it is called as it happens, it going to happen a lot, even when a defensive player has no intent whatsoever to plant a helmet hit. It just a consequence of the speed of the game that being agressive and trying to make a play is going to result in helmet application on some occasions, no matter the caution (and if too much restraint is employed, that diminished agression is certainly going to mean a much less effective defense).

I am shocked that you believe this true.  There is a strike zone, if you will, for hits.  The speed of the game doesn't factor into this.  Go watch the helmet to helmets that incur fines from the league.  Watch the hit on Sunday on Vincent Jackson.  It's so blatant and intentional that Troy Aikman and Joe Buck practically shit themselves.  Watch the hits from James Harrison.  They are clearly leading with the helmet.

Look, you lead with the shoulder and helmets knock together?  Speed of the game and all that.  But, a less effective defense?  If so, you're a dirty team looking to take someone out of a game. We're talking concussions and permanent life-altering events here.   

First, have you ever played tackle football?

Second, even it was just helmet on helmet we were referring to, there still would be some inadvertent instances -- the speed of the game is such that a defensive player can be moving rapidly to make a play and, not on intention, still bang helmet on helmet because the receiver/ball carrier was situated at a fortuitous vertical mark. But that not the bulk of what I was alluding to -- any helmet to "defenseless" player is being called (not every hit, but this is part of my point -- it subjective, in that if the offensive player elicits a reaction). It impossible not to have helmet impact, given the speed of the game, and the gear players don.  Without ability of inhuman level of intuition, impossible to predict how an offensive player will swerve and turn, and thus there will always be probability of a helment hit on a tender part of the body.

[HaemishM]

The refs totally utterly fucked that game last night. It's not the first game they've done that to this season, but it was certainly one of the most obvious and high profile. As I tweeted last night, the NFL ought to be fucking ashamed of this shit. I complain about the regular refs - and I think I have valid complaints about them as well as the current interpretation of the rules - but fuck me, this is goddamn amateur hour. In a sport with an annual revenue of almost TEN BILLION FUCKING DOLLARS, you're going to call in scrub refs because you can't agree with the regular refs over a collective bargaining agreement? Is it going to take someone getting injured for the season during one of these cluster fuck dick-waving contests that the refs can't seem to get a grip on before the NFL realizes shit needs to get done? The sports radio tone went from "yeah, they messed up but for the most part it wasn't terrible" after the first week's games to "this is absolutely disgraceful" after this week's games.

I don't blame the replacement refs. They are doing the best they can but they are the JV team getting put up against a Super Bowl champion. They simply can't handle the pressure and the league is giving them no help. It's fucking Keystone Cops out there between missed calls, taking forever just to spot a goddamn ball, to calls that were just out and out WRONG. The fact that John Fox had to blow a challenge flag on that tipped ball to get the defensive interference call overturned is insane. Plus, it could have meant robbing his team of a legit TD if that Thomas pass in the endzone had been outside of 2 minutes and thus only reviewable by challenge. There's simply no excuse for reffing this bad in a game making this much money.

As for the game, really hard to watch. Manning looked awkward and ordinary for 3 quarters. Denver's defense didn't show up until 3 quarters in as well. The Falcons may be a better team than I initially thought (beating KC is not a major accomplishment). I didn't realize Mike Nolan was their new D coordinator. He's certainly got them looking solid, but he's always been good at setting up tough defenses. Amazingly, Atlanta's offense is still a bit of a concern. They missed opportunities for touchdowns with some short fields in the first half, and though they moved the ball, didn't really put Denver down for the count when they could have. Still, a win's a win. With the Saints shitting the bed, this may well be Atlanta's division to lose.

[naum]

As for the game, really hard to watch. Manning looked awkward and ordinary for 3 quarters. Denver's defense didn't show up until 3 quarters in as well. The Falcons may be a better team than I initially thought (beating KC is not a major accomplishment). I didn't realize Mike Nolan was their new D coordinator. He's certainly got them looking solid, but he's always been good at setting up tough defenses. Amazingly, Atlanta's offense is still a bit of a concern. They missed opportunities for touchdowns with some short fields in the first half, and though they moved the ball, didn't really put Denver down for the count when they could have. Still, a win's a win. With the Saints shitting the bed, this may well be Atlanta's division to lose.

Seeing Peyton Manning in a Bronco jersey conjures up images of Joe Namath in a Rams uniform, Franco Harris in a Seahawks jersey, and though it before my time (and the first two examples, I was just a kid), Johnny Unitas in Charger blue…

[Paelos]

I agree with your assessment of the officials, Haemish.

Colin Cowherd is still doing his traditional contrarian thing on ESPN Radio, meaning he's saying the refs are fine. Then every single guest he brings on totally disagrees with him. I've yet to hear from one person that we can't tell the difference between questionable calls and the insult to our intelligence that was last night. Fuck you NFL. If the only way you'll stop this shit is for me to stop watching, I'll do it, because the product on the field is pathetic.

[WayAbvPar]

How does Cowherd still have a job? He is not only clueless, but clueless in a dull, pedestrian way. I can't stand listening to him. Or any nationally syndicated sports radio, honestly. Sports Radio needs to be homegrown- the national stuff is too homogenized to be interesting.

[01101010]

As for the game, really hard to watch. Manning looked awkward and ordinary for 3 quarters. Denver's defense didn't show up until 3 quarters in as well. The Falcons may be a better team than I initially thought (beating KC is not a major accomplishment). I didn't realize Mike Nolan was their new D coordinator. He's certainly got them looking solid, but he's always been good at setting up tough defenses. Amazingly, Atlanta's offense is still a bit of a concern. They missed opportunities for touchdowns with some short fields in the first half, and though they moved the ball, didn't really put Denver down for the count when they could have. Still, a win's a win. With the Saints shitting the bed, this may well be Atlanta's division to lose.

Seeing Peyton Manning in a Bronco jersey conjures up images of Joe Namath in a Rams uniform, Franco Harris in a Seahawks jersey, and though it before my time (and the first two examples, I was just a kid), Johnny Unitas in Charger blue…

Joe Montana in a Chiefs uni? or Jerry Rice in Raider black? Favre in a Vikings uni.. I believe they are calling it the twilight uniform.  

[HaemishM]

Colin Cowherd is still doing his traditional contrarian thing on ESPN Radio, meaning he's saying the refs are fine.

Cowherd is very rarely right and/or listenable, but for the most part is just a complete and utter douchenozzle of the highest order. I do not understand why he has a radio show. You might as well pair him up with Bayless and have a "The Two Jizz Moppers" radio show.

As for nationally syndicated sports talk, I actually like some of it. Mike and Mike is fun, I like Scott Van Pelt too. I can't listen to the local stuff because it's wall to wall SEC talk with the occasional Saints filler and high school stuff in the middle, and I don't really give much of a shit about college ball.

[Paelos]

Anybody can be in national sports radio and be successful. Here's the formula:

1 - Find something that the fans traditionally do not like.
2 - Express your love of said thing fans do not like.
3 - Cherry pick stats to support this statement, ignore other stats.
4 - Talk over callers and ask them to provide explicit details, while providing none of your own
5 - PROFIT

[cmlancas]

Look, you lead with the shoulder and helmets knock together?  Speed of the game and all that.  But, a less effective defense?  If so, you're a dirty team looking to take someone out of a game. We're talking concussions and permanent life-altering events here.   

First, have you ever played tackle football?

Second, even it was just helmet on helmet we were referring to, there still would be some inadvertent instances -- the speed of the game is such that a defensive player can be moving rapidly to make a play and, not on intention, still bang helmet on helmet because the receiver/ball carrier was situated at a fortuitous vertical mark.

  Apparently reading is hard.  I clearly said this and agreed with you.

But that not the bulk of what I was alluding to -- any helmet to "defenseless" player is being called (not every hit, but this is part of my point -- it subjective, in that if the offensive player elicits a reaction). It impossible not to have helmet impact, given the speed of the game, and the gear players don.  Without ability of inhuman level of intuition, impossible to predict how an offensive player will swerve and turn, and thus there will always be probability of a helment hit on a tender part of the body.

I still reject this argument.  Watch the VJ play, fourth quarter, around the six minute mark.  I see a lot of "helmet impact, given the speed of the game" plays, but this one isn't one.  This is a guy aiming high and smashing a defenseless receiver near the head.  It's so blatant that the announcers are surprised VJ pops right up and are happy he's not injured.  I already posted the rule above, so here's the related video:
http://www.giants101.com/2012/09/17/video-new-york-giants-kenny-phillips-unloads-on-vincent-jackson/

If you think that's good for the NFL then we have a difference of opinion.  If you think this is legal as defined by the current ruleset, you're wrong.

[Paelos]

I don't like those type of hits for one reason. They aren't tackles. It's the same type of non-wrapping-up bullshit I'd like to get out of the league. It's not fundamental, it's not a shot to the middle of the body and it's not an attempt to take a guy to the ground. It's a guy flying cannonball style at another player. It's stupid, and it's a bad way to tackle.

[ghost]

There's a clear difference between a guy spearing someone and bumping helmets in the act of wrapping someone up.  

Addendum-  Sounds like the coaches and players aren't too happy with the ref situation either. 

[Trippy]

R.I.P. Steve Sabol

[naum]

I still reject this argument.  Watch the VJ play, fourth quarter, around the six minute mark.  I see a lot of "helmet impact, given the speed of the game" plays, but this one isn't one.  This is a guy aiming high and smashing a defenseless receiver near the head.  It's so blatant that the announcers are surprised VJ pops right up and are happy he's not injured.  I already posted the rule above, so here's the related video:
http://www.giants101.com/2012/09/17/video-new-york-giants-kenny-phillips-unloads-on-vincent-jackson/

Nowhere did I mention a specific play and not going to justify this one. It's not my point, and apology for not making myself more clearer -- point is, helment on body (and even helmet) happens even when the intention is not to play dirty due to game speed. In a theoretical universe, tackles would always be "wrapping" up at consistent collisions but real live play bodies fly and helmet collisions happen. Unless defenders become overly cautious and restrained, which means they will also be far less effective. So, that makes it a crap shoot at times, a key penalty that can decide the game.

But don't take my words for it, listen to any top notch defensive player, that speaks candidly on the matter.

[WayAbvPar]

R.I.P. Steve Sabol

 

[Draegan]

As I tweeted last night, the NFL ought to be ..

Thank god you're letting us know the when you're tweeting and what you're tweeting.

R.I.P. Steve Sabol

RIP.  :( :(

[HaemishM]

As I tweeted last night, the NFL ought to be ..

Thank god you're letting us know the when you're tweeting and what you're tweeting.

Don't be glib. My tweets are SRS BZNESS.

[Paelos]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/Vince-Young-Broke-Out-of-NFL-170334706.html

Vince Young's broke. Raise your hand if you DIDN'T see this one coming.