Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Nayr]

Robin Sachs (Zaeed) died on Friday. It was just announced on his website.

http://robinsachs.com/

Yeah, I saw Chris Priestly tweet about that earlier today.

It's a damn shame. Sachs was a great voice actor.

[tmp]

Friends don't necessarily immediately get over the fact someone is a) actually alive after two years of thinking they were dead and b) working for an organization they know was doing some fucked up shit and have precisely zero reason to think they've changed. I can't blame Ashley or Kaidan for being all "uh, wtf?" about it, as I am pretty sure I would be too.

For that matter it's not even like they can know for sure whether that's a real Shepard miraculously brought back to life or some other sort of fucked up Cerberus experiment wearing Shepard skinsuit. For that matter even Shepard him-/herself can't be entirely sure it's not both

[Nayr]

Yeah that's one thing, after all the crazy evil shit Cerberus did, it's not hard to not blame someone for not wanting to get mixed up with them.

Akuze and Corporal Toombs.

Jack and Gillian Grayson

Murdering Admiral Kahoku.

Trying to enslave Rachni and Thorian Creepers

Experimenting with Dragons Teeth.

Having Paul Grayson kill Charles Saracino's competitor for head of Terra Firma Party so he would get elected

And lots of other miscellaneous bad deeds including detonating eezo tankers over cities to create biotics at the cost of hundreds of casualties, murdering a Pope to get a replacement who supported human militancy, and kidnapping Asari to use for biotic experiments to apply to Subject Zero/Jack, and using several media franchises as fronts for their pro-human propaganda.

[Ingmar]

I think people's reactions to that must be mostly informed by how much ME1 undersells Cerberus. They only appear in very under-polished side missions, don't have their trademark 'look' yet, don't have any named important individuals to associate with them. A lot of people don't even do the side missions in ME1.

Also, if you start with ME2, then the clues that Cerberus is Really Really Bad are not very extensive. You have Tali's story about the fleet, and you have all the built-in distrust in Shepard's dialogue, but no grounding in why.

[Nayr]

I think people's reactions to that must be mostly informed by how much ME1 undersells Cerberus. They only appear in very under-polished side missions, don't have their trademark 'look' yet, don't have any named important individuals to associate with them. A lot of people don't even do the side missions in ME1.

Also, if you start with ME2, then the clues that Cerberus is Really Really Bad are not very extensive. You have Tali's story about the fleet, and you have all the built-in distrust in Shepard's dialogue, but no grounding in why.

That's because, according to Drew Karpyshyn, Cerberus was a throwaway group for side missions originally. There was no look or Illusive Man originally, that was added in after ME1 when the decision was made to use them again.

"Tali's story" is also covered in the Ascension novel. Where Cerberus does some very despicable things(Prazza and Tali described Ascension's plot quite nicely in a few words,) then is followed up in Retribution where they do even more despicable things. The thing in Retribution, I might add, couldn't have been done without Shepard(they used Reaper tech salvaged from the Collector Base that Shepard destroyed/spared.) Not to mention Cerberus is generally publicized as a terrorist organization to the public, like Al Qaeda, or to a worse extreme, the Nazis.

And Mac Walters' comic, Mass Effect Evolution, shows that the Illusive Man was exposed to Reaper tech which augmented his mind and made him highly intelligent. Meaning ol' blue eyes has probably been indoctrinated from the very beginning.

[Nayr]

Disregard. Accidental double post.

[Ingmar]

Bleh, don't ever bring in the novels (or other random tie-in stuff like comics). Not only are they bad (very, very bad, and yes, I've read them), they're useless for informing a discussion of what the average gamer will be able to understand about what is going on in a game, because the average gamer doesn't read tie-in novels, and dare I say, gets angry at the idea that they have to to understand what is going on. It really makes a lot of people mad that you have to read Warcraft novels to understand why you're going on a raid, for example.

[Nayr]

Bleh, don't ever bring in the novels (or other random tie-in stuff like comics). Not only are they bad (very, very bad, and yes, I've read them), they're useless for informing a discussion of what the average gamer will be able to understand about what is going on in a game, because the average gamer doesn't read tie-in novels, and dare I say, gets angry at the idea that they have to to understand what is going on. It really makes a lot of people mad that you have to read Warcraft novels to understand why you're going on a raid, for example.

You don't need to read the tie-ins to enjoy the games. But they do provide deeper insight into characters and events. The games do a good enough job of explaining the novels events through dialogue(Anderson in ME1 explained Revelation, Prazza/Tali explained Ascension, and Anderson and the audiologs at Sanctuary explain Retribution and Deception, and James explains Paragon Lost)

[Lantyssa]

Since I do 100% completion, never read the novels, and am one of the strongest voices decrying how Kaiden/Ashley were handled in ME2, I'll put forth they didn't do as good a job as you think.

I give Stormwaltz hell over Ashley's depiction in ME1, but she was still believable there, and ultimately on the right side of things no matter your initial perceptions of her.  ME2 just throws out all that personal history.  Maybe if they were some normal civilian it'd work, but they were there, with Shepard, through all of ME1 and beyond.  Skeptical?  Fine.  Need to earn their trust?  Sure, no problem.  Flat out telling you to piss off?  No.  It doesn't work.  There'd be a mix of emotions, not just pure revulsion.

[Nayr]

Since I do 100% completion, never read the novels, and am one of the strongest voices decrying how Kaiden/Ashley were handled in ME2, I'll put forth they didn't do as good a job as you think.

I give Stormwaltz hell over Ashley's depiction in ME1, but she was still believable there, and ultimately on the right side of things no matter your initial perceptions of her.  ME2 just throws out all that personal history.  Maybe if they were some normal civilian it'd work, but they were there, with Shepard, through all of ME1 and beyond.  Skeptical?  Fine.  Need to earn their trust?  Sure, no problem.  Flat out telling you to piss off?  No.  It doesn't work.  There'd be a mix of emotions, not just pure revulsion.

Like I said, I liked Ash in ME1. Chris L'Etoile's job on her made her really enjoyable for the most part.

And like I also said, I get why she and Kaidan are angry in ME2. Shepard doesn't outright say "I died. And Cerberus rebuilt me." The most he can say is that he was in a sort of coma. But they're most offended by the fact that Shepard didn't bother to contact them to let them know he is alive(I imagine a romanced VS is supremely pissed about that) and to see Shepard palling around with the enemy(They remember Admiral Kahoku and the sick experiments from ME1) makes them question whether or not Shepard is even the same person. Or if he's being fooled by Cerberus into doing their dirty work(which, ironic as hell, he was.)

But a romanced one, in ME2, has the change of heart and sends Shepard an apology. Which makes it okay for me. I get it, they were upset and didn't handle it as well as they could have.

But in Mass Effect 3, it's like they have a total lapse of common sense on Mars - Kaidan thinks Shepard is a mind control puppet, Ash thinks you aren't even really Shepard. Kaidan lets go of it at the hospital for the most part. But Ashley acts skeptical, and furious if Shepard cheated with Miranda or Jack(but surprisingly, she's okay with Tali who she's come to think of like a sister.) And she stays mistrustful of Shepard all the way until the standoff during the Cerberus Coup.

[Sjofn]

Misplaced anger is just not that unbelievable to me, especially coming from Ashley (Kaidan less-so, but Kaidan is so clearly Shepard-sexual, I blame that for his temper tantrum). She thought you were better than this, because she was there. And here you are, not better than that at all, as far as she can tell. She's coming out of a stressful situation, sees someone she thought she was close to is actually alive (and you didn't even call her, you asshole!), hanging out with a group of terrorists. My goodness, why would she be angry and lose her temper?

Now, there should have been more to soothe Horizon than a single email, yes. I would've traded that crappy "bridging" DLC for a Shadowbroker-like DLC that dealt with the Virmire survivor in a heartbeat for sure. But I'm not going to hold gameplay decisions against the characters. The moment on Horizon feels in character to me, it's the lack of resolution to it (until ME3, although that isn't the most satisfying moment either) that hurts it overall.


EDIT: Also, I am totally sad to hear about Zaeed dying. :(

[Nayr]

Misplaced anger is just not that unbelievable to me, especially coming from Ashley (Kaidan less-so, but Kaidan is so clearly Shepard-sexual, I blame that for his temper tantrum). She thought you were better than this, because she was there. And here you are, not better than that at all, as far as she can tell. She's coming out of a stressful situation, sees someone she thought she was close to is actually alive (and you didn't even call her, you asshole!), hanging out with a group of terrorists. My goodness, why would she be angry and lose her temper?

EDIT: Also, I am totally sad to hear about Zaeed dying. :(

Yeah. Not to mention, Shepard, a Council Spectre and Alliance Commander, is gallivanting around the Terminus systems causing trouble. Something that was a no-no in ME1 because "it could start a war."

But Shepard's distance from the VS is likely attributed to Cerberus wanting to keep Shepard away from the Alliance as much as possible. Redemption and Paragon Lost(despite a couple of flaws) show that the Alliance knew about the Collectors, had an antitoxin for the seeker swarm venom(which is how Kaidan/Ash got unfrozen, which was unanswered in ME2,) and Cerberus knew about the Collectors and the Human Proto-Reaper before Shepard even woke up(which is why he asked Shepard to spare the base, he had it planned from the get-go. Human Reaper is a mountain of salvage of Reaper tech to experiment with.) Meaning for the breadth of ME2, Shepard was a puppet with the Illusive Man's hand up his ass.

Paragon Lost also explains why the Alliance thought Cerberus was behind the missing colonies. Because Messner, a Cerberus agent, sold Fehl Prime to the Collectors in exchange for an opportunity to gather information.

As I've said about a half a dozen times tho, but I will reiterate again. The VS' actions on Mars was completely moronic. If Shepard was a fake/puppet who was working for TIM, he wouldn't be killing his soldiers in droves and undermining his attempts to steal the Crucible's blueprints. That's just common sense.

[Sjofn]

Eh, Kaidan is pretty much over it by the time you finish Mars, really. He sort of assumes you know why Cerberus is on Mars, you tell him to stop being a moron, he scowls, then the only other thing he really says regarding you and Cerberus is when you find the reaper'd Cerberus corpse and he gets concerned Cerberus put horrible implants in you, too, which I don't think is an inappropriate question for him to ask. Anyway, you get all NO and he's like well okay and then he gets beat up by a robot.

Honestly, I didn't even find Ashley that bad on Mars itself (her fishlips still haunt my dreams, though), but I haven't actually talked to her in the hospital yet. If she's still all RABBLE RABBLE CERBERUS for much longer, though, I may shoot her out of the airlock. 

[rk47]

You do have option to go 'Are we in this together, Ash?' in the 2nd hospital visit.
I did. I felt yeah, fine. It's all cool now. Ash is out of the fight anyway. Then comes the Udina Conspiracy.
Shattered my faith in humanity right there.

[Shrike]

If she's still all RABBLE RABBLE CERBERUS for much longer, though, I may shoot her out of the airlock. 

Better warm up the airlock. She never lets it go.

It's why she hit the curb in my PC playthroughs. Like I said, you know who your friends are in ME2. She falls to bar room acquaitence.

[Koyasha]

Ash in ME2 I could forgive, Ash in ME3 just dragged it on too far.  The thing is there were 6 months between the two games.  She was mad about Shepard not having called, but then she sent an email to apologize.  Okay, I'll buy that.  And Shepard was a bit too busy to meet up and talk things over during ME2.  However...why didn't she call while Shepard was in detainment or whatever happened between the games?  This should have been worked out by then!  If anyone has a right to be angry at that point it's Shepard, who's been hanging around in detainment or something on Earth, and Ash doesn't even visit, once?

[Sjofn]

This just goes to show that Kaidan is actually the right choice for who to save on Virmire. 

[Nayr]

Eh, Kaidan is pretty much over it by the time you finish Mars, really. He sort of assumes you know why Cerberus is on Mars, you tell him to stop being a moron, he scowls, then the only other thing he really says regarding you and Cerberus is when you find the reaper'd Cerberus corpse and he gets concerned Cerberus put horrible implants in you, too, which I don't think is an inappropriate question for him to ask. Anyway, you get all NO and he's like well okay and then he gets beat up by a robot.

Honestly, I didn't even find Ashley that bad on Mars itself (her fishlips still haunt my dreams, though), but I haven't actually talked to her in the hospital yet. If she's still all RABBLE RABBLE CERBERUS for much longer, though, I may shoot her out of the airlock. 

I guess Eva knocked some sense into him. lol

Well you can kill Ashley during the Cerberus coup, just avoid using any Charm/Intimidate speech options(and Paragon interrupts) and be kinda dickish to her during Mars and the Hospital. Then there's a Renegade interrupt where you can shoot her in the gut during the standoff between you two

On a serious note: It should be obvious to Ash/Kaidan that I'm not the same as the soldier on Mars. Biggest piece of evidence, I don't look like a husk. Second biggest piece, I'm killing the half-husk troopers in droves, not fighting alongside them.

[tmp]

I have vague recollection of ME3 at this point, but essentially Ash committed to both my Shepard's side and to the broader idea of "species co-operation first" when she trusted what Shepard was telling her and defended alien members of the Council against Udina. Hardly what i'd call "never lets it go" or actions worth an airlock trip.

[Nayr]

I have vague recollection of ME3 at this point, but essentially Ash committed to both my Shepard's side and to the broader idea of "species co-operation first" when she trusted what Shepard was telling her and defended alien members of the Council against Udina. Hardly what i'd call "never lets it go" or actions worth an airlock trip.

That one scenario is dependent on circumstance.

If you romanced Ashley, didn't cheat on her in ME2, and treated her nicely throughout Mars and the Hospital scenes(tell her that you didn't cut all ties) then take the Paragon interrupt and drop your weapons, then she sides with you.

Otherwise you need to do a Charm/Intimidate speech check. And if you don't do that, she sides with Udina and dies. Either because Shepard shoots her her/himself, or one of the squadmates does it when Shepard goes on without doing it(Kinda like when Ash killed Wrex on Virmire, ironically)

Also to start a new subject, since it seems the Ashley argument is going around in circles.

What the hell is up with Udina's hair in ME3? He decide to celebrate his success with getting it dyed or something?

[Sjofn]

Random aside: You don't cheat on Ashley or Kaidan if you romance someone else in ME2, and I resent the game insisting otherwise. Any sane person would take what happened on Horizon as a "OK, we are definitely broken up," even if for some reason they think fucking dying doesn't count as one.

[Fordel]

Sounds like something a cheater would say!


I just stared longingly at a portrait of Liara. 

[Nayr]

Random aside: You don't cheat on Ashley or Kaidan if you romance someone else in ME2, and I resent the game insisting otherwise. Any sane person would take what happened on Horizon as a "OK, we are definitely broken up," even if for some reason they think fucking dying doesn't count as one.

Except when you get the email where they apologize for how they acted and open up about how it felt losing Shepard.



Both emails are very heartfelt apologies.

My problem is that ME3 treats them like they never existed.

[Ingmar]

The emails don't change the other circumstances, though. Those relationships are clearly over. The Liara one is the only one where there's a case to be made to call it cheating.

[Sjofn]

Both of those emails read to me like "yes okay we aren't a THING any more since you, like, died, but I kinda hope that maybe we can get together sometime and work it out after all this bullshit with the collectors" rather than "YOU ARE STILL MY SWEETUMS." Which, even if Kaidan is braindamaged enough to think I am still his girlfriend, at no point during ME2 did I reaffirm any sort of commitment. There was no commitment made. Yet the dialogue still says I cheated on him, and fuck you whoever wrote that. And! At the same time! OTHER dialogue expects me to be cool with the shit Jacob pulls, which is WAY closer to "cheating."

Like Ingmar said, Liara is really the only one who would have call to be legitimately pissed (especially once LotSB came out), and even she is like "Can we still maybe be a thing?" rather than assuming you guys have been in an actual relationship since ME1. The cheating dialogue makes no fucking sense and I would really like to kick whoever decided it did in the shins, right after I kick whoever came up with the Jacob stuff right in the balls.

[Nayr]

The emails don't change the other circumstances, though. Those relationships are clearly over. The Liara one is the only one where there's a case to be made to call it cheating.

Well in most relationships, the first fight doesn't equal to a break up.

Kaidan and Ash are mad, they vent, storm off, and then apologize for it later. Nowhere in that conversation were the words "We're over" spoken.

And when they bust you at Huerta Memorial, they even iterate it that way when Shepard says he took it as a break up.

Also I was looking around Encyclopedia Dramatica and this made me laugh.

"Illusive Man: Left Earth when he realized his son had Tiger Blood. Still looking for a cure." No wonder TIM is such a bastard, having to have Charlie Sheen for a son. xD

[Sjofn]

Uh, a fight like that? Yeah, that's a break up fight, doesn't matter if it's the first or the twentieth. A sad apology email afterwards does not obligate Shepard to treat it otherwise.

[Nayr]

Uh, a fight like that? Yeah, that's a break up fight, doesn't matter if it's the first or the twentieth. A sad apology email afterwards does not obligate Shepard to treat it otherwise.

Kind of a double standard, no? Shepard could spend the bulk of ME1 cutting up Ash and Kaidan over everything and still fuck them before going to Illos. But the first time they grow a pair and call Shepard out on something, it's over.

[Venkman]

I have learned over the last five pages just how little I actually was into ME. I loved the series, but man, I don't know shit about it 

[rk47]

I have learned over the last five pages just how little I actually was into ME. I loved the series, but man, I don't know shit about it 

we learn to forget faster, and it's a good thing sometimes.

[Lantyssa]

Except when you get the email where they apologize for how they acted and open up about how it felt losing Shepard.

You're one of those psycho "we're together once and now forever" types, huh?

[Nayr]

Except when you get the email where they apologize for how they acted and open up about how it felt losing Shepard.

You're one of those psycho "we're together once and now forever" types, huh?

I wouldn't say that. But I am the type that needs more than one fight to write someone off.

[Stormwaltz]

ROSS: We were on a break!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

[Ingmar]

Except when you get the email where they apologize for how they acted and open up about how it felt losing Shepard.

You're one of those psycho "we're together once and now forever" types, huh?

I wouldn't say that. But I am the type that needs more than one fight to write someone off.

It isn't like the fight is the only factor.

[Nayr]

ROSS: We were on a break!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

OMG, I'm sick right now and I nearly got into a coughing fit over that. xD