Windows 8

[Lantyssa]

Real pros write their latex in Notepad (or notepad++). 

Notepad++

Real pros use VMS VAX.

[ghost]

I would imagine that it's going to get to the point that corporations will just buck up and have a Linux OS drummed up to suit their needs.  Windows 8 in anything but business friendly.

As for basic business stuff, I'm surprised that Mac hasn't caught on more.  As you see more cloud stuff (like Quickbooks online) I imagine that the OS won't really matter.  But yeah, many of these windows programs are quite specialized for a particular industry.  I can't imagine those folks switching, and why would they?  There's no reason as long as XP and Windows 7 are available to license from MS (and I'm assuming that they will be for quite a while). 

On a side note, my computer that I put Windows 8 on crapped out on me.  Had to put Windows 7 back on.  Soooo sad. 

[Hammond]

Traditionally the business software (be it accounting, inventory, hr) has been written for windows. There is a transition now to more web based products but it is a extremely slow cycle and you are right in a few years it really will not matter. Penetration into corporate america  has been a bit tough with the Mac OS X because there are no real native enterprise level tools built in. You have to use 3rd party software to make it live in that environment. A big part of that is Apples target market is consumers rather than businesses. Personally I always look for the right tool for the job. I can care less what a user uses if it makes sense.

On a side note I have been hearing about a refresh of the mac pro desktops for years with nothing every coming to light. I really do not blame apple or others focusing on the consumer market because for hardware it is MASSIVE compared to  how many desktops are at businesses. I would probably buy one if it was decently priced although I will probably end up with a mac mini at home just for something to play with to keep up with the software changes.

[Ingmar]

There should be more that you can do with iPads, but nobody is even trying, really.

This is where the Surface has its killer app. We'll see if people catch on.

There's no reason as long as XP and Windows 7 are available to license from MS (and I'm assuming that they will be for quite a while).  

XP hasn't been available from MS for years and went off mainstream support in 2009. Extended support (meaning security hotfixes and any paid support contracts still lingering around) expires next year, and will not be extended further.

[Fabricated]

I would imagine that it's going to get to the point that corporations will just buck up and have a Linux OS drummed up to suit their needs.  Windows 8 in anything but business friendly.

As for basic business stuff, I'm surprised that Mac hasn't caught on more.  As you see more cloud stuff (like Quickbooks online) I imagine that the OS won't really matter.  But yeah, many of these windows programs are quite specialized for a particular industry.  I can't imagine those folks switching, and why would they?  There's no reason as long as XP and Windows 7 are available to license from MS (and I'm assuming that they will be for quite a while). 

On a side note, my computer that I put Windows 8 on crapped out on me.  Had to put Windows 7 back on.  Soooo sad. 

If there's one thing that windows does well it's enterprise environments. Apple has completely given up that battleground, which is another reason you'll never see it gain traction in anything but tiny companies, and why in large companies the only mac users are spergs with enough control to demand their own hardware setups. Macs aren't even really the best audio/video editing platform anymore.

[Venkman]

There should be more that you can do with iPads, but nobody is even trying, really.

This is where the Surface has its killer app. We'll see if people catch on.

Theoretically. But they're up against the "tablet = media consumption" impression, and MS does not have the consumer loyalty, and probably doesn't have the focus nor attention span, to change that impression alone. Which is a shame for them because they're really the only one with a vested interested to change it. Google is all set and Apple has never focused on content creation (they've always provided frameworks for others to provide that).

I would deem engineering software as *specialized*.

Only if you deem Photoshop and Illustrator "specialized" too Which they are, but it's worth noting. In fact, about the only software suite out there I can think of that isn't specialized to some specific field is Word

Further up on this thread, Darniq claimed that Mac user base really had not grown. I think that a faulty assumption and it gave me impetus to check server logs and analytics for sites I manage, both personal and organizational -- even for conservative non-profit, with elderly visitor set tilt, Mac users account for nearly 1 in 7 visitors, MS is barely above 50%, and iOS & Android together make up nearly a third. On my most frequented personal site (a Tumblr blog with ~50K followers), Mac users make up over a third, with Windows just a few points higher (the rest mobile/tablet users, with a 2% Linux too :))

My assertion is from sales numbers and revenue. Apple's CE devices formed something a halo effect over their MacBooks. And the percentage of Macs out there has increased in part because Windows-machine purchases took a bit of a dive last year. By some reports I saw, they are up to 13% market share, which is close to your 1 in 7. But that's more to do with tablets than MacBooks, which is still a win for Apple because iPad still dominates tablets.

I don't hate Macs. But I don't love them either. They're just a tool like all the others we need.

[MahrinSkel]

Not so much  Good chance they'll trail Android by the end of this year, virtually certain they will by the end of next.  It's the Jesus Phone all over again, Apple gets there first and builds the market, but then loses market share because of high prices and inflexible hardware capabilities.

I was having this argument just the other day, about how the iPad wasn't a computer but my cheap ass Coby tablet (running Android, of course) was.  Because I can write a program *for* the Coby *on* the Coby, where I have to use a Mac to run an emulation environment to do the same for iOS, then beg Apple to give it permission to run on anyone else's.  He pointed out that hammering out code on a soft keyboard sucks, I said: "Yes, but I can just plug in a USB keyboard for that.  Where's the USB port on an iPad again?"

Apple is for "Artists" and computer illiterates that want to show off how creative and individual they are by buying products that are all exactly alike, and mostly can't be used to create anything.

--Dave

EDIT: For that matter, if you're an actual artist who wants to really *draw* on a tablet like it was a sketch-pad with a pressure-sensitive stylus, you can't do that on an iPad.  But you can on an Android (not with the best software support, admittedly), and you can very well on a Win8 tablet.  Apple is not a technology company, they're in the fashion business.

[Malakili]

Not so much  Good chance they'll trail Android by the end of this year, virtually certain they will by the end of next.  It's the Jesus Phone all over again, Apple gets there first and builds the market, but then loses market share because of high prices and inflexible hardware capabilities.

I was having this argument just the other day, about how the iPad wasn't a computer but my cheap ass Coby tablet (running Android, of course) was.  Because I can write a program *for* the Coby *on* the Coby, where I have to use a Mac to run an emulation environment to do the same for iOS, then beg Apple to give it permission to run on anyone else's.  He pointed out that hammering out code on a soft keyboard sucks, I said: "Yes, but I can just plug in a USB keyboard for that.  Where's the USB port on an iPad again?"

Apple is for "Artists" and computer illiterates that want to show off how creative and individual they are by buying products that are all exactly alike, and mostly can't be used to create anything.

--Dave

EDIT: For that matter, if you're an actual artist who wants to really *draw* on a tablet like it was a sketch-pad with a pressure-sensitive stylus, you can't do that on an iPad.  But you can on an Android (not with the best software support, admittedly), and you can very well on a Win8 tablet.  Apple is not a technology company, they're in the fashion business.

As usual, people underestimate the value of macs(im including iPads, iPhones, etc) just being enjoyable to use for the average person.  My mother, for example HATED the whole smart phone thing until she picked up an iPhone and then she suddenly was on board.  She also bought an iPad later on.  Its simple, easy, enjoyable.

Then again, Apple isn't really targeting the type of people who post about the relatively usefulness of tablets on internet forums.

[Surlyboi]

The irrational Mac hate in this thread is beyond stupefying.

Yup.

Moneyshot: "Apple is for "Artists" and computer illiterates that want to show off how creative and individual they are by buying products that are all exactly alike, and mostly can't be used to create anything."

I guess that makes me either an "Artist" or a computer illiterate.

Which one is it?

[MahrinSkel]

I don't underestimate it: History shows it's worth about an 8% market share.  This 'average person' who likes Apple products for their ease of use seems to be a very narrow slice out of the middle of the bell curve.

And Surly: Could you rebuild your computer from a pile of parts, and is that guaranteed to be an Apple?  If the answer is "yes", then you're not stupid, you're just a poseur.  See, *this* is what fans my dislike for Apple from simple dislike and disinterest to actual white-hot hatred: The fact that people *identify* with the brand.

Once upon a time, there were things that a Mac was actually more useful for.  And once upon a time, you could say that Apples really were easier to use.  Neither has been true for a long time, but the worshipers kneeling at the Genius Bar still repeat the catechism.

--Dave

[Malakili]

It just seems like such a fucking tired debate to be honest.  I used to get worked up over this sort of shit, but I just can't bring myself to get this worked up over which laptop or tablet someone buys.  I'm out.

[MahrinSkel]

It just seems like such a fucking tired debate to be honest.  I used to get worked up over this sort of shit, but I just can't bring myself to get this worked up over which laptop or tablet someone buys.  I'm out.

I'm bored, there's only so long we can all agree about how Win8 sucks, and poking Mac cultists is always good for a giggle.

--Dave

[Pennilenko]

I'm bored, there's only so long we can all agree about how Win8 sucks, and poking Mac cultists is always good for a giggle.
--Dave

When I am bored I go into the Apple store at the mall, and pretend to be all interested and excited, and right before I commit to buying something, I ask if I can get a list of compatible PC games so I can see all off the amazing games I will be able to play. Then I ask how well media management will function if I am not interested in using or installing iTunes. It's always good for a laugh when the sales guy says, "Why wouldn't you want to use iTunes?"

Apple employees are just as brand hypnotized as any of their customers.

[Pennilenko]

Yup.

Moneyshot: "Apple is for "Artists" and computer illiterates that want to show off how creative and individual they are by buying products that are all exactly alike, and mostly can't be used to create anything."

I guess that makes me either an "Artist" or a computer illiterate.

Which one is it?

The only thing you prove by being an apple customer is that having money does not guarantee good sense when purchasing technology.

[Venkman]

Not so much  Good chance they'll trail Android by the end of this year, virtually certain they will by the end of next.  It's the Jesus Phone all over again, Apple gets there first and builds the market, but then loses market share because of high prices and inflexible hardware capabilities..

And? Their argument is based on units sold (which is a shoe-in for Android; see above) and vague promise about the vague promise of the coming panacea of mobile ad revenue, which has been the panacea since right after PC display ad revenue started to tank (typical supply problem, because there's so much of it). Further, none of that matters if a sufficient mass of device owners (or OS adopters so we can talk at the higher level of iOS vs 15 flavors of Android) aren't using the things like the not-quite-computers Apple promised but doesn't actually need to live up to while Google absolutely does but can't for the same reasons Apple doesn't.

It's inevitable Apple will lose it's dominance even at the critical level of end users using the actual devices after purchasing them. And it's possible that Google will hand them their hats. But I'm not making that bet. And, something will need to radically change in the next two months for any of this to happen this year. Something a lot more than stupid PR campaigns for an ongoing string of forgetable devices that inspire no loyalty because the entire not-Apple industry save Samsung can't generate any of it. And even Samsung slipped hard.

I get that it's fun to poke at Apple enthusiasts, especially nowadays when Apple is the Orwellian company they launched their first major campaign against.  But not everything they do is wrong. As long as there is a world where the hardware, platform, ecosystem and end user monetization all need to happen, it's going to take a lot more than "we own contextual ads based on search results, a fake Facebook and crappy AR goggles" to take down cross-industry well-integrated companies like Apple. If I were a betting man, I'd go with Amazon over Google.

[Surlyboi]

And Surly: Could you rebuild your computer from a pile of parts, and is that guaranteed to be an Apple?  If the answer is "yes", then you're not stupid, you're just a poseur. 

The answer is yes. And I'm neither stupid or a poseur.

There are other possibilities. But keep trying to pigeonhole Mac users.

[Paelos]

I just want them to stop preaching at me when they try to send me tax documents with a tablet or phone. Or that I ask them to send things in an excel format.

(This is about 3% of clients, and they still complain we should have a mac on site to deal with these issues, and we're a firm of 10 people).

[MahrinSkel]

And Surly: Could you rebuild your computer from a pile of parts, and is that guaranteed to be an Apple?  If the answer is "yes", then you're not stupid, you're just a poseur. 

The answer is yes. And I'm neither stupid or a poseur.

There are other possibilities. But keep trying to pigeonhole Mac users.

Ahh, you're no fun.  Okay, if you insist on having an actual conversation, why do you use a Mac?

--Dave

[Trippy]

Most tech startups are run on Macs. Based on the job listings for tech startups I read through on a regular basis I would say probably 75% of the tech startups here in the SF Bay Area are mainly, if not exclusively, on Macs. There are a few reasons for this.

1. Mac OS X is the best Unix desktop environment to do Unix development on and most tech startups that have servers run them on Linux and while Mac OS X is not Linux (it's FreeBSD-based in terms of compatibility) it's close enough for most server development work to run seamlessly between both environments. Even some die-hard Linux developers have given up on the Linux desktop environment (which seems to be regressing rather than getting better) and are switching to Mac OS X.

2. In the mobile app market iOS is still where the money is, despite Android's market share, and you have to use Mac OS X to develop for iOS.

3. Graphic designers that work for tech startups still predominately use Macs so that's another large group of people that use Mac OS X.

4. And tech startup marketing people are all about style over substance so they use Macs too.

That just leaves Finance and Legal as the departments that still cling to Windows machines.

If you go to a Web or Mobile tech conference they look almost the same as that picture above where maybe 80% of the people have MacBooks of some type, 15% will have PC laptops but are running Linux and 5% will be on PC laptops running Windows.

[Merusk]

Surli's an Apple employee, why wouldn't he defend them?  Silly people, if you're going to poke the man at least have the facts straight and don't just call him out on being a "Mac Fanboi."

They're used by 2/3 of our graphic department. So the poke about, "can't actually create anything" is false unless somehow I missed out on the "we're hemorrhaging money" bit at the last corporate meeting.

The local Universities have switched-over to only supporting them for the mandated laptops.  Why?  Well the professors bitching about having to spend the first 1/2 to 2/3 of class time getting people in to the network has a lot to do with it.  Apple's discount/ subsidy program for education is the other.

Are they generally under-built and overpriced? That's always been my opinion but they are still more intuitive and easier to service than Windows OS' from my experience.  I'll confess that's about 5 years out of date but I don't see you techies in here bitching about supporting them like I do bitching about supporting Windows.   Fuck your Linux in the ear, when it becomes a viable business platform (vs support platform) we can talk. Until then it's a small sector of the market and inconsequential to anyone but geeks who like to think they matter on the 'net.

[Surlyboi]

Aww Merusk busted up my fun. 

[Ironwood]

Just to add to Trippy's wee list :  Lots of things these days are cloudified, which really helps macs get in there.  The amount of Cloud Solutions I've had to put on Macs over the past year has been staggering.

[Fabricated]

Linux as a desktop environment is complete fucking trash and the most friendly distro (Ubuntu) managed to regress into a pile of unusable shit with Unity. That and there's all the very basic things that Linux still can't nail with 100% certainty like OSX or Windows can (like uh, sound and wireless support).

OSX honestly I've dealt with for about a year and a half now at work as my main machine until very recently, and the best thing I can say about it is that I really liked spaces and iTerm. The dock is a shitty taskbar, multi-monitor support is somehow worse than windows, most of the features added in Lion suck especially full-screen apps (which are present and just as useless in Win8), and personally I dislike mission control.

Wait, I liked the "natural scrolling" on the magic mouse, which is a terrible mouse outside of that. The mac keyboard is such trash I literally threw it away for a cheapo dell keyboard that someone didn't want with their new optiplex.

And we've established Win8 is terrible.

Computers suck.

[tgr]

Most of the people I know who use any *nix which isn't mac os x as a desktop (including me) is using kde (i.e. kubuntu, not ubuntu), because Gnome as a WM has degenerated for years.

I know of 1 friend who uses Gnome, and he's considering switching over to KDE.

[Miasma]

Most tech startups are run on Macs.

Most tech startups are poseurs.

The whole mac/windows nerd fight should really be about which one you hate less these days.  They are both annoying, crash more often than their previous versions and get in the God damn way instead of trying to be invisible.

I don't like macs but I hate Windows 8.  I don't know what I'm going to do if Microsoft doesn't rip out all the suck in the next Windows.  I can't buy a mac when they over charge that much, I'd feel like a sucker.  I can see myself three years from now gently sobbing as I resort to installing some version of linux for work type stuff and then a partition of the oldest supported windows release to play games on.

[Lantyssa]

I'm considering buying a server and throwing VMs on it.  For home.  Then I can have my Windows, Linux, or what-have-yous as I need them.

Not sure how well that will work for gaming though.

[Ironwood]

I have that in the garage.  It works very well.  I also have a games machine, because it doesn't work for that.

[Hammond]

At this point I pretty much have equal hate for all OS's. I do laugh a lot at the mac vs windows vs linux vs android vs whatever else fights though.

Back to the windows 8 discussion I will say that windows 8 works pretty good as a drawing medium. Pair it with a decent stylus and it is pretty fun. Only drawback is there is not much software that really utilizes it and while OneNote is pretty cool (evernote also) it really doesn't take advantage of the potential of the hardware.

As far as the windows blue release (is it 8.1?) I think its going to be a glorified service pack so we are probably another year away from any kind of major overhaul / fix.

[ghost]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.  And it does have the fact that it is free going for it.

[Miasma]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.

You are out of your God damned mind.

[Pennilenko]

My Apple hate comes not from the products or the company, but from the people I meet that use and purchase the products. While I am sure that there are exceptions to every rule, nearly every apple customer I have ever met has been a raging twat hole of a human being.

[ghost]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.

You are out of your God damned mind.

Why?  Turn it on, surf the net, download porn.  What else do people do on the internet?

[naum]

Apple is for "Artists" and computer illiterates that want to show off how creative and individual they are by buying products that are all exactly alike, and mostly can't be used to create anything.

--Dave

What an ignorant statement.

OS X not OS nirvana by any stretch, but most developers (non-PC-gaming though which is ultimately destined for "the cloud" and excluding specialized applications) are sporting Macs --- even Linus Torvalds, Linux creator, uses a Mac for his go-to machine, Rob Pike, John Resig (creator of jQuery), etc.… …go watch some Google Developer videos, and look at all the Macbooks… …yeah there's a few Linux/Win users sprinkled about. So your label of "computer illiterate" makes more of an expression about you…

Don't know if you're just donning a troll hat but this the long arc now -- to "the cloud", SaaS for all but specialized software (like developer tools, A/V stuff that still better on local client though). It's why MS answered with Win8 -- tap tap tap is where the consumer market is headed.

[ghost]

You're right, Naum.  I think it's tough for people that are immersed in computers for work to dissociate themselves from what they do to see the big picture.  iPads and Surfaces are where we'll be in 5 years, for the average Joe, with a plug in monitor and keyboard to make it easier to use at home.  There are a lot of kinks to work out in the system, but the days of a dedicated PC at home are probably dead for most folks. 

But this is what makes Microsoft's decision to go full on Windows 8 so confusing.  It will be adopted by business/industry only grudgingly, and even then probably only at gunpoint.  OSX and IOS seem to be much more business friendly when looking at the two options, although using the Apple app store as a business is a bit wonky. 

[Ironwood]

Windows 7 was and is excellent.