Whitney Houston has died

[Ingmar]

Going deep into "Ingmar's non-scientific guess territory" here:

People who manage to unfuck their lives from addiction probably have one (or both) of two things: a genetic/brain chemistry/whatever advantage of some kind, or a very, very good support structure from family or friends. Having money to afford the latter is no particular advantage if you're so fucked up you don't know who is helpful and who is a leech.

[01101010]

Going deep into "Ingmar's non-scientific guess territory" here:

People who manage to unfuck their lives from addiction probably have one (or both) of two things: a genetic/brain chemistry/whatever advantage of some kind, or a very, very good support structure from family or friends. Having money to afford the latter is no particular advantage if you're so fucked up you don't know who is helpful and who is a leech.

Environment plays heavily into addiction and breaking it. You can send an addict off the Ford or whatever-Name clinic for 3 months and they can be perfectly clean coming out. Problem is, they get out and go home... back to the place they were in before, same faces, same places. Unless all that changes or the person makes an effort to avoid the seedy parts of their old life... well chances of relapse increase dramatically. Granted, I haven't kept up with the addiction literature for about 5 years, but it was a primary interest of mine in grad school.

Of course, now-a-days - you have doctors pushing drugs harder than most street dealers. Yay! You got off crack, but now you have anxiety disorder and can't sleep, here are some depressants and tranquilizors for that. Giving drugs to an addict, even couched under "doctor care" is never a good thing and takes way too much medical supervision to keep from spinning into abuse. And since medicine is turning into an assembly line industry where people are now customers rather than patients, well good luck getting that sort of medical attention.

[Paelos]

She went to rehab in 2004, 2005, and 2011. She tried to get help and couldn't overcome her addiction. Why? Because she refused to stop touring. She refused to stop singing and living the lifestyle. She refused to stop being the center of attention diva that she always wanted to be.

Anybody who goes to rehab will tell you that you CANNOT go back to your old life and expect the changes to hold. You can't have the same friends. You can't go to the same places. You can't claim that you're cured. You have to change everything that brought you into the X-factor of using that took over your life.

[ghost]

Right.  But to really go through rehab you have to want to do it, and she may not have ever really felt the desire to quit.  Is that because the drugs had such a tight hold on her?  Who knows.  If she didn't want to quit then she didn't really want to change her surroundings.  She really just needed someone to kick her ass into shape, which absolutely would have required a change in lifestyle. 

[Ingmar]

And not the BB sort of ass kicking.

[Paelos]

My point is that I don't shead many tears for anyone who is truly unrepentant for their choices and doesn't want to change, ever.

Hell the very day before she died, she was at the Beverly Hilton bar, drunk off her ass, living it up with the Grammy celebs.

[Ingmar]

My point is wanting to change doesn't mean shit for some addicted people. Brains don't work the way we want them to.

[Mrbloodworth]

Isn't that what interventions are for?

[ghost]

My point is wanting to change doesn't mean shit for some addicted people. Brains don't work the way we want them to.

Yep.  The guy down on the corner holding the cardboard sign that's been shooting up heroin every day for a month probably wants change too, but his body wants the heroin more.  Addiction is a bitch.  Whitney just happened to be lucky enough to have a (once upon a time) great voice.

[Mrbloodworth]

And a fuck-ton of money. Possibly, a private island.

[ghost]

And a fuck-ton of money. Possibly, a private island.

Not any more though.  She was virtually bankrupt and had all sorts of leeches hanging off of her trying to take advantage. 

[Ingmar]

Which, by the way, is probably why she kept touring. Touring is by far the best way for musicians to make money (the promoter/venue gets a smaller cut than a record company takes out of an album), and since she wasn't also a composer I doubt one of the usual avenues for ongoing income (publishing royalties) was something she was seeing anything from.

[lamaros]

Is the world full of assholes, or is the 'I don't respect people with issues' crap in this thread an American thing.

[proudft]

Can't it be both?

[Paelos]

My point is wanting to change doesn't mean shit for some addicted people. Brains don't work the way we want them to.

So they are hopeless? Exactly how far are you willing to take this? Should we just do them a favor and shoot them in the head after a certain amount of exposure because they simply no longer possess the capability to stop?

Personally, I think this is bullshit. We're human, but it's never to late. If you want to stop, if you need to stop, you can. I believe in the power of the human spirit. I believe anybody can change.

[Ingmar]

Hopeless without external intervention, yes, and good luck getting someone with a lot of money separated from sycophants and bad influences permanently. Chemistry is what it is.

EDIT:

In other related news: http://boingboing.net/2012/02/13/sony-raised-price-of-whitney-h.html

[Ceryse]

I've never understood the whole "addiction is hard to break, they need help!" shit. I say this as someone who's kicked addictions to heroine (three years of using), cocaine (two years of using) and, most difficult of the three, caffeine (almost 24 years of high intake). I didn't change my lifestyle a single bit in any of the cases. I simply decided one day that was it, that I was no longer willing to deal with the results of my addiction and I stopped, cold turkey, with little to non-existent support from other people (the most help i received was a phone call while kicking cocaine, once, saying 'good luck').

You either want to kick the addiction and are willing to go through the hell it entails or you aren't. Its that simple. Is it hard as fuck to do it? Yes and no. Personally, everytime I dealt with it and the ensuing withdrawal I kept in mind the why of my quitting and coped. Messy as fuck, at times difficult (more-so physically than mentally) but I found myself closer to suicide than falling back into the addiction when it got to the worst of the withdrawal.

I have no sympathy for her, or any other addict who dies because of their addiction, and get annoyed at those who make excuses for them and how tough it is to break an addiction, especially if they haven't gone through it.

[Ingmar]

You're making the mistake of assuming your personal experience is applicable to people with different genes and different brain chemistry.

[Chimpy]

God I just love the "bootstrap" crowd.

[ghost]

Is the world full of assholes, or is the 'I don't respect people with issues' crap in this thread an American thing.

There are a lot of assholes in the world....

[HaemishM]

I'm proud to be an asshole, but I don't think it's something I can help. 

This is not "bootstraps" criticism. This is people with a shitton of resources who cannot or will not rid themselves of the sycophants, hangers on and parasites that infest their world in order to unfuck their lives. If you have or had $50 million and a catalog of bankable music, you don't need ANYONE who is causing you harm. There's also some other asshole willing to exploit your bankability for personal gain. The trick is learning which shitheads are a drag on your life and which aren't (if any). Staying married to a shithead like Bobby Brown is one perfect example.

No, it isn't easy but don't expect much sympathy from me if you can't use the vast resources your fame and fortune bring you to get yourself out of self-created cluster fucks.

[Chimpy]

My comment was not aimed at you Haemish.   

[ghost]

cannot or will not

Cannot is a whole different ballgame than will not. 

[lamaros]

Just because someone has money doesn't necessarily make things any easier.

I'm reminded of David Chappelle comments about the reasons he quit, Martin Lawrence, Mariah Carey, etc.

There is a huge lack of empathy in this thread. This whole "I got problems, and I'm poor, why the fuck should I excuse a talented rich person" makes me feel a bit sick. What would any of you really know about dealing with such pressures?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2787517403276391321

[Tannhauser]

Forget it lamaros, it's f13 town.

[Sjofn]

Empathy is for pussies, lamaros, duh. Far better to posture about how you'd never be so stupid.

[tazelbain]

Not everyone is deserving my empathy.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Not everyone is deserving my empathy.

Unless you've lived through it yourself or in the same house with a loved one going through it, you don't have empathy to share. You may or may not have sympathy, but you cannot possibly have empathy.

[lamaros]

That's not true. You can empathise without having been in someone's shoes. You might need a better imagination though.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, empathy does not necessarily mean you've been in that exact situation (although that certainly helps strengthen the feeling).

[Paelos]

There is a huge lack of empathy in this thread. This whole "I got problems, and I'm poor, why the fuck should I excuse a talented rich person" makes me feel a bit sick. What would any of you really know about dealing with such pressures?

What does it matter if they excuse her or not? She's still dead. Even if you don't like their logic as to why they aren't disturbed by her passing, it's pretty much irrelevant. We're not weighing her soul into the afterlife. It's the internet.

[ghost]

We're not weighing her soul into the afterlife.

Speak for yourself bro.  I am god in my own little kingdom here.

[lamaros]

There is a huge lack of empathy in this thread. This whole "I got problems, and I'm poor, why the fuck should I excuse a talented rich person" makes me feel a bit sick. What would any of you really know about dealing with such pressures?

What does it matter if they excuse her or not? She's still dead. Even if you don't like their logic as to why they aren't disturbed by her passing, it's pretty much irrelevant. We're not weighing her soul into the afterlife. It's the internet.

Because I spend far too much time reading this forum and would prefer to think that the people I'm sharing that time with aren't all dickbags?

[ghost]

Because I spend far too much time reading this forum and would prefer to think that the people I'm sharing that time with aren't all dickbags?

You have, of course, read the politics forum.   

[Sky]

We're not weighing her soul into the afterlife. It's the internet.

Yeah, I didn't even touch the drug stuff. Too easy, posers.