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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Star Wars: The Old Republic  |  Topic: Ilum world pvp 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Ilum world pvp  (Read 24333 times)
amiable
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Reply #70 on: January 30, 2012, 11:19:59 AM

We had a jugg with 10k hps and the opposing team had one with 20k hps. We lost.

They really need to introduce a crafted PvP set/mods into the game so folks can walk into pvp with at least some baseline expertise. When I cue for random BG's and see 6 folks coming in with 10-12k hp I just groan because I know it is going to be a longggggg match.  I don't begrudge them though, they really have no other option.

What I despise is folks who give up the second they get 2 capped in Alderaan or get a goal scored against them in huttball.  I see that behavior a lot and it is pretty douchetastic.  The one nice thing about server-only BG's is you can identify and call out that behavior pretty easily.  You can also talk to folks on the other side in if you are playing same faction huttball which leads to some funny exchanges between folks who were your best friend last game and are now out for your blood.  There is one marauder and one operative in particular who are my best friend when we are teamed together but are totally after my blood when we are on opposite sides.  It's actually kind of cool because you really can develop friendly rivalries.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #71 on: January 30, 2012, 11:29:38 AM

No, I mean I enter naked or dressed to the nines and I have the same stats as the next guy.  Gear shouldn't matter at all in PvP.
Unfortunately, mmo has infected previously level playing fields, so the chances of seeing that in mmo is nil.

I like to pvp enough to remember why I don't pvp in gear imbalanced games.
Furiously
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Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 11:40:13 AM

I totally go after stealthers when I'm against them. Or the person I know will complain the most. Or the person who will melt.

Nevermore
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Reply #73 on: January 30, 2012, 02:35:33 PM

Or <Slap in the Force>  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Over and out.
Furiously
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Reply #74 on: January 30, 2012, 02:42:35 PM

Well duh!

I realized Nebu might have stated a fallacy earlier. The two piece bonuses on the pvp and dungeon armor are different. So you might want two pvp pieces if you raid and you might want the dungeon pieces if you pvp. So they made another decision people should bitch about.

Khaldun
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Reply #75 on: January 30, 2012, 08:57:39 PM

Man, I might be done with this whole game after tonight. I'm on a server with a 4-1 imbalance in favor of Imps. For whatever reason, tonight, they were fielding full Battlemaster-geared toons everywhere. Warzones were like that too. In Ilum, they had us outnumber at all times and generally outgeared. Just pointless, dull, unfun in the most excrutiating way, and yet, you can't not do it if you have any hope of ever being able to do it. The only brief moments where fun broke out was when it was Republic v. Republic in Huttball. In the meantime, I don't much enjoy the Hard  Mode Flashpoints either. I think it's time to see a bit more story via alts and then it's over and out.
Zetor
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Reply #76 on: January 30, 2012, 10:15:37 PM

Welcome to the club.  awesome, for real

The pop imbalance is especially bad if there are only enough pvpers on your side queuing to field enough people for one WZ... then you'll get to enjoy being outnumbered due to people randomly leaving / not taking the queue as well while facing battlemaster premades from pvp guilds. Fun for the whole family!

The only 'solution' is to queue with a premade yourself - I have yet to lose a game when queued with 3 other pvpers in a balanced group, even without voice comms. Having 4 somewhat-geared people in a WZ who know how objectives work is a half-win by itself... especially in huttball (where the weaker side can win if they use their CC and pulls/jumps/knockbacks well).

Threash
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Reply #77 on: January 31, 2012, 05:56:57 AM

I picked empire thinking we'd be outnumbered but with the better pvpers, as it tends to happen in most games.  Silly me.

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Khaldun
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Reply #78 on: January 31, 2012, 07:36:57 AM

I had a hard time getting this whiny bitch in my ex-guild to understand why this is a bad design (I dropped out after this convo) even if they were to impose pop caps in Ilum. I was like, look: either a) we're getting rofflestomped because there are way more of them, and when they rofflestomp us they gear up far faster and then it's like a positive feedback loop, the imbalance gets worse and worse and worse and more and more difficult to correct unless there are enough ridiculous masochists willing to endure weeks of dying every ten seconds to earn points at a minimum rate or b) you impose pop caps in Ilum and then Empire has very long queues and they get frustrated and quit. He was like, "So what's the problem if they get frustrated and quit? Ok by me!"  Yeah, sure, it's tons of fun to circle around on your little scooter clicking on boxes all night.
Lantyssa
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Reply #79 on: January 31, 2012, 08:15:14 AM

Allowing gear progression in PVP is key because it lets people know that they can get better if they just keep at it. Using a PVP stat keeps the two progression tiers (raiding and PVP) reasonably separate, so players never have to debate if it'd be easier to do one to gear up for the other. SWTOR is, at it's heart, a WoW clone so expecting something vastly different is unreasonable.
No, allowing gear progression means you have a game where only a handful of people will play, and it will stagnate as those who don't devote their entire game time to it walk away.

It takes a very special person to accept being kicked in the balls / punched in the taco over and over to reach an 'acceptable' level of possibly, maybe winning.  All it does is punish the undergeared person and their entire team.  Every match that person is in they are a liability.  Further, they're completely ineffective, if not dead too quickly, to be able to learn enough to improve their skills.  They have to reach the baseline before to begin matching people who have had all that time to learn.

It's nothing more than a Korean grindfest mentality applied to PvP.  And using WoW as a defense is silly, as it's probably their worst system consistently across expansions.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
eldaec
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Reply #80 on: January 31, 2012, 09:10:11 AM

Allowing gear progression in PVP is key because it lets people know that they can get better if they just keep at it. Using a PVP stat keeps the two progression tiers (raiding and PVP) reasonably separate, so players never have to debate if it'd be easier to do one to gear up for the other. SWTOR is, at it's heart, a WoW clone so expecting something vastly different is unreasonable.
No, allowing gear progression means you have a game where only a handful of people will play, and it will stagnate as those who don't devote their entire game time to it walk away.

The entire theory that gear progression tempts weaker players to try to earn the advantage relies on your weaker players being total retards who somehow do not realise that the better players will also be progressing their gear. An in an exponential power gain system like SWToR or WoW, the practical power difference will never change significantly. This isn't like EVE or DAoC where as progression continues, the advantage is eroded.

This is like that time your five year old kid brother says 'in five years time I'll be older than you!'.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
amiable
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Reply #81 on: January 31, 2012, 09:15:46 AM

One thing to remember: PvP gear allows non-raiders a viable method to access "end-game" gear.  It's an amazing grind, but it can be done.  It's not even that amazing of a grind, I am valor rank 43 after about 3 weeks of PvP playing a few hours in the evenings and on weekends, mostly just to do my dailies.  Since there were battlemaster's literally 2 weeks out in the game I imagine another month of consistent play and I will be a battlemaster.  I already have a complete set of champion gear save for my helm so I am going to start investing in battlemaster bags so when I hit 60 I will probably have a lot of the battlemaster set.  Even in full champion gear (which is dead easy to get with weeklies) I don't feel underpowered.
Nebu
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Reply #82 on: January 31, 2012, 09:24:19 AM

One thing to remember: PvP gear allows non-raiders a viable method to access "end-game" gear. 

This.  My entire guild had full champion sets before trying most of the hardmode flashpoints.  It's a nice alternative gearing mechanism and the gear is decent enough that you don't have to lug two sets of gear around.  Which reminds me of a new peeve I need to post in the other thread... a gear switch tab/macro!


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
disKret
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Reply #83 on: January 31, 2012, 10:07:45 AM

I am going to start investing in battlemaster bags so when I hit 60 I will probably have a lot of the battlemaster set.

Battlemaster bags are unique - you cant even store one in cargo and pick one for personal bags.
Nebu
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Reply #84 on: January 31, 2012, 10:08:49 AM

Battlemaster bags are unique - you cant even store one in cargo and pick one for personal bags.

Yes.  So enjoy having 6 pairs of champion boots in the meantime.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
amiable
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Reply #85 on: January 31, 2012, 10:31:36 AM

Well crap.  Heartbreak  That puts a kink into my clever plan.
Lantyssa
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Reply #86 on: January 31, 2012, 10:36:57 AM

I don't care if PvP offers a method to get gear for PvE (equivalent preferably, not best-in-slot, but if content is doable without it doesn't really concern me).  I only care if PvP offers gear which impacts relative PvP power.

1) If I enter a PvP match as a newbie will I be curbstomped? (y/n)

2) Is it mostly because of gear disparity (y/n)

If (1) yes and (2) yes, then your PvP is shit.  That's all the thought most people put into whether they like PvP or not.  Nothing else matters until you get past (2).

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tmp
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Reply #87 on: January 31, 2012, 10:46:25 AM

One thing to remember: PvP gear allows non-raiders a viable method to access "end-game" gear. 
This.  My entire guild had full champion sets before trying most of the hardmode flashpoints.  It's a nice alternative gearing mechanism and the gear is decent enough that you don't have to lug two sets of gear around.
But don't you guys get the pvp stat on that gear was put there to prevent this exact sort of behaviour, and ensure you do your PvE progression properly through the PvE, so no one gets butthurt why so serious?
Nebu
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Reply #88 on: January 31, 2012, 11:35:37 AM

But don't you guys get the pvp stat on that gear was put there to prevent this exact sort of behaviour, and ensure you do your PvE progression properly through the PvE, so no one gets butthurt why so serious?

Columi gear is essentially identical to Champion pvp gear with expertise substituted for either surge, power, alacrity, or crit.  This means that pvp gear works fine for pve, but that pve gear will be slightly better on the same tier.  Also the set bonuses vary (pvp set bonuses target pvp utility)

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Furiously
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Reply #89 on: January 31, 2012, 06:29:17 PM

I had a nearly orgasmic experience today in ilum.

I completed my weekly in about an hour or two having twenty vs twenty fights. It brought back some of the best field fights I had in daoc. It was glorious.

Kageru
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Reply #90 on: January 31, 2012, 06:47:26 PM

The entire theory that gear progression tempts weaker players to try to earn the advantage relies on your weaker players being total retards who somehow do not realise that the better players will also be progressing their gear. An in an exponential power gain system like SWToR or WoW, the practical power difference will never change significantly. This isn't like EVE or DAoC where as progression continues, the advantage is eroded.

This is like that time your five year old kid brother says 'in five years time I'll be older than you!'.

Actually there is a cap (best in tier gear) and the developer can control how easy that is to reach, how long it remains, and how much progress the loser can make towards it. If there is some progression even for bad players on losing teams, and the cap is not ever changing, then the system works. The hardcore PvP people tend to hate it though as they like the imbalance, and always want more carrots to chase, so they'll complain about it lacking challenge, being rewarded for "face-rolling" and lack of incentive when a large part of what they dislike is people catching up to them. Which only becomes an issue if the developer gets sucked into their version of the story.

Eve is not a good example of eroding advantage, given there's groups blobbing around in ships that take years to acquire and represent hundreds to thousands of dollars of real world wealth.

Really PvP gear should be hopeless for PvE, superior for PvP, and have a reasonable ceiling to achieve. Everyone reaches the plateau, some fast and some slower, and then you have balanced (outside of class issues) PvP with no contagion between play styles.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Khaldun
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Reply #91 on: January 31, 2012, 06:48:16 PM

Yeah, that sounds like my one good time there too. Just great. And then there's about fifteen times roughly as fun as getting a colonscopy.
Furiously
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Reply #92 on: January 31, 2012, 06:57:46 PM

I think weekly reset the next few weeks will be the best.

amiable
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Reply #93 on: February 01, 2012, 03:53:42 AM

I think weekly reset the next few weeks will be the best.

Yeah we had some great fights too (although they were laggy as all hell).  I did go from Valor rank 43 to 46 in about 2 hours, so that was nice....
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