Ilum world pvp

[tmp]

You are not serious with this idiocy are you? Hai guys RTS and FPS are exactly the same because you press buttons!

Bad analogy is bad.

RTS and FPS are different genres. Single player FPS and multiplayer FPS are not.

Now, which FPS was it that had the bots so good they could kick people's asses in single player just as good as people in a PvP match? one of older Unreal Tournaments, iirc?

[tmp]

It addresses the problem of players being forced to do something they don't enjoy in order to compete in the thing they do, and it works perfectly at that.  

That's not addressing the problem; that's breaking the thermometer because it shows you have a fever.

(the players with gear disadvantage still get raped in PvP, and the difficulty of obtaining the gear in PvE remains unchanged)

[Threash]

Yes, players with inferior gear get raped in pvp that's why you want to get the better pvp gear.  Yes, raids are hard, thats why you want to get the better raid gear.  I feel like i'm arguing with someone who's never played an MMO before. 

[tmp]

Yes, players with inferior gear get raped in pvp that's why you want to get the better pvp gear.  Yes, raids are hard, thats why you want to get the better raid gear.  I feel like i'm arguing with someone who's never played an MMO before. 

And here i thought the "cockstabbing is necessary part of the design to keep the player playing" was also an idea we got over some years ago.

[eldaec]

Funny how no mmos except wow have needed the pvp stat as a crutch.

[Threash]

The two games i've played since WoW came out (rift, DCUO)  both had a pvp stat.  Well the two that didn't implode before the whole thing became an issue anyways.

[Threash]

Yes, players with inferior gear get raped in pvp that's why you want to get the better pvp gear.  Yes, raids are hard, thats why you want to get the better raid gear.  I feel like i'm arguing with someone who's never played an MMO before. 

And here i thought the "cockstabbing is necessary part of the design to keep the player playing" was also an idea we got over some years ago.

The cockstabbing depends entirely on how hard that gear is to get, not in having the gear progression itself.

[tmp]

The cockstabbing depends entirely on how hard that gear is to get, not in having the gear progression itself.

Well no kidding, you either have the cockstabbing or you don't. If you don't and the gear is not hard to get then there's a good chance your players won't be putting up with getting raped and teabagged in PvP just so they can get some equipment for raiding. And then hey, suddenly there's no need for silly hacks like pvp stat. Who would've thought?

[Threash]

Yes there is, one method is always going to be easier than the other there is no way to make them absolutely equal and players are going to feel like they are being forced to take the easier method every time.  When you have a problem of players being forced to do something they don't want "but only for a little while" is not a solution.

[tmp]

Yes there is, one method is always going to be easier than the other there is no way to make them absolutely equal and players are going to feel like they are being forced to take the easier method every time.

Do you see SWTOR players uniformly participate in either PvP or PvE only while they level up, to get their gear? It is after all identical equipment from both sources, without any "pvp stat" on it. And since there "must" be always the easier way and the players "must" follow it whether they like it or not, the behaviour you describe should be clearly present, right?

Just as alternative theory, the difficulty of both routes --while never absolutely equal-- can be brought close enough the players' own preference for either PvE or PvP may actually have impact on which activity they ultimately choose. And when that's not the case then it's a sign of actual, mentioned earlier, problem. I.e. the sign one of the ways to obtain gear is considerably harder than the other. To the point where this difference may outweight personal preferences.

This isn't unlike the PvP class balance, in a way -- when you see everyone play sorcerers, something is amiss. And the devs are generally expected to address it through buffs/nerfs to individual classes to bring them closer to one another, not through a patch that makes the sorcerers only playable on the map for Huttball (or say, on Thursdays) Even though that would be also a "solution" to the issue.

[Threash]

Yes there is, one method is always going to be easier than the other there is no way to make them absolutely equal and players are going to feel like they are being forced to take the easier method every time.

Do you see SWTOR players uniformly participate in either PvP or PvE only while they level up, to get their gear? It is after all identical equipment from both sources, without any "pvp stat" on it. And since there "must" be always the easier way and the players "must" follow it whether they like it or not, the behaviour you describe should be clearly present, right?

No, their goal is leveling not gearing up.

Just as alternative theory, the difficulty of both routes --while never absolutely equal-- can be brought close enough the players' own preference for either PvE or PvP may actually have impact on which activity they ultimately choose. And when that's not the case then it's a sign of actual, mentioned earlier, problem. I.e. the sign one of the ways to obtain gear is considerably harder than the other. To the point where this difference may outweight personal preferences.

Or they can just simply separate the gear into pvp and pve which works perfectly instead of trying to balance two completely different playstyles.  I simply do not get why having separate progression paths for pvp and pve is in any way shape or form a problem in any way.  You are asking for incredibly complicated solutions to something thats already been solved.

[tmp]

I simply do not get why having separate progression paths for pvp and pve is in any way shape or form a problem in any way.

Again, it's not really a (big) problem itself; it's just a "solution" that doesn't fix the actual, underlying issues, but if anything makes these issues worse.

The "incredibly complicated solutions" i'm asking for (which in large part aren't different from what the game already does with the player's stats) are to address these.

edit:

No, their goal is leveling not gearing up.

Leveling is also possible through both PvE and PvP. If the players indeed feel that they must only use the easiest available route and it's never possible to make the routes similarly appealing to them, they should uniformly flock to single leveling approach, leaving the other unused.

[Kageru]

Gear progression warping PvP is something I consider an "intended fault" of MMOs. They motivate people to get gear by allowing them to own or get owned.

Having a PvP stat on gear was a good solution. It allowed some mismatch between PvE and PvP mechanics to be addressed. In WoW the fact that DPS was too high and players too fragile. It changed the delicate balancing between two play-styles for which had the easiest path to the carrot, or forced people to engage in a play-style they didn't want, into two separate paths of progression each with their own reward which extends longevity / grind of the game.

[Ingmar]

DAOC solved this problem like 10 years ago people, with stat caps. Of course that was before they turned around and broke it again themselves.

[eldaec]

Aside from stat caps, Daoc pre-ToA still had gear progression - but through interesting procs or adding to stats you haven't capped because they have only marginal utility.

Key thing here was diminishing returns, the difference between the various sources of gear was aesthetics and one or two percent. The differences in swtor are much larger, which encourages designers to use easy design crutches rather than solve problems.

People keep boldly stating that end gamers will do anything for 1 or 2 percent. The evidence from diminishing returns games says not. End gamers will do anything for the 10 or 20 percent on offer from each tier in games like wow that have exponential returns, but that is both a rational and avoidable reaction.

[Fordel]

DaoC pre-ToA also had the added benefits of it's spellcrafting system and the fact NOTHING was BoP/BoE. Pre-ToA there was no 'B' at all.


You could and would very much actually finish gearing up in DaoC.


Until they broke it with ToA of course. 

[Ingmar]

It was of course broken pre-TOA for hybrids, but hey. SWTOR doesn't *have* those so it would be pretty much perfect for this system.

[Fordel]

Like a full suit was saving your thane either way.

[Kageru]

My understanding is that DoaC didn't have to worry about protecting PvE progression because there wasn't any... until TOA.

[Nebu]

My understanding is that DoaC didn't have to worry about protecting PvE progression because there wasn't any... until TOA.

The only progressing was getting to level 50 and grinding crafting to a point where it was useful.  ToA was just pants-on-head stupid.  Leveling gear on a specific mob at a specific time in a specific area?  Right.  And the gear use abilities were overpowered to the point that they became a necessity.  The popularity of the Classic rules servers generated a brief area of renewed life for the game showing just how little most players wanted to PvE for their PvP fun. 

Shame that the lessons of the past seem lost on many developers.  If someone could couple the strategy of DAoC with the fun of WoW, we'd have a very enjoyable pvp mmo. 

[eldaec]

Daoc had gear progression. It went DF-Epic-Spellcrafting-SIepicdungeon. Dragon gear fitted in somewhere as well.

The point is, it didn't consume the game in it's infinite maw because higher tiers were slightly better, not orders of magnitude better.

[Lantyssa]

Why are there stats in PvP at all?  Why is this such a hard solution?

Baseline it.  Allow stat trade-offs if you want to get fancy.  That's it.  Everyone shares the same stat pool.

Give nifty toys, lateral upgrades, and fancy looking gear.  Everyone wins.

[Nebu]

Why are there stats in PvP at all?  Why is this such a hard solution?

Baseline it.  Allow stat trade-offs if you want to get fancy.  That's it.  Everyone shares the same stat pool.

Give nifty toys, lateral upgrades, and fancy looking gear.  Everyone wins.

If they remove expertise, raiders will destroy everyone with Rikata gear.  The point as I see it is to separate the pvp grind from the pve grind.  I'm already seeing people forgo pvp gear using raid gear and they are doing absurd damage.  The benefit of expertise is that it gives you more dps and you take less damage from players.  I'd much prefer that it act as a damage reduction only, but that's just me.  People are already dying too fast in pvp. 

[Mrbloodworth]

I do not believe the majority of PvPers want a level playing field. They want the arbitrary stats = skill. No offense, but I suspect in the RPG world, not many will participate in PvP unless gear = win. This is not RTS or FPS. Keeping them quarantined in a progression all by itself is likely the safest option.

[Nebu]

I do not believe the majority of PvPers want a level playing field. They want the arbitrary stats = skill.

No offense, but I suspect in the RPG world, not many will participate in PvP unless gear = win. This is not RTS or FPS.

You're correct.  Most people in pvp are terrible and will only continue to serve as sheep if they perceive that the gear grind will make them more competitive.  What results is a system where the better players still dominate, but the established bad players now have a chance to beat the new bad players.  I didn't realize just how terrible most players were at pvp until I started playing my shadow more.  I laugh out loud every time someone runs away while I repeatedly backstab them for 4k.

[Crumbs]

Yes, players with inferior gear get raped in pvp that's why you want to get the better pvp gear.  Yes, raids are hard, thats why you want to get the better raid gear.  I feel like i'm arguing with someone who's never played an MMO before. 

Right, but if you don't have the gear for dungeon level 20, you do dungeon level 4 or whatever you're geared for.  Level 4 dungeons don't throw level 20 mobs at you, but mmo pvp areas will allow this type of disparity.

[Khaldun]

What gear represents in this context is "I play more than other people, and so should be better than other people". E.g., it's the same stupid design pit that all MMOs have been wallowing in since the first DIKU was launched: the people with the most surplus time get the most power. It's not just PvP, it's PvE too, since most boss fights are elaborate choreographies that you master the same way you mastered what to do when playing Dragon's Lair on a coin-op machine: with quarters, time and memorization.

If PvP was twitch, and PvE was against AIs that didn't have a choreographed routine but instead had a more random or unpredictable repertoire of behaviors and tactics, most old-school MMO players would quit in a heartbeat. I happen to think there might be another group of potential players who would be attracted to that design, maybe enough to compensate for the loss or even grow the player base, but for the moment, poopsockers and poopsock designers continue to be trapped in a horrible, co-dependent relationship.

[Nebu]

I agree.  Playing more SHOULD make you better just by virtue of practice.  Why should the more practiced players also have the benefit of a gear boost?  It makes no sense to me beyond the fact that MANY MANY MMO gamers play the game for loot rather than fun or challenge.

Give me mounts, titles, appearance gear, or maybe a self heal or additional purge.  Maybe ship mods or something for my companion... crafting recipes? Anything.

[Lantyssa]

If they remove expertise, raiders will destroy everyone with Rikata gear.  The point as I see it is to separate the pvp grind from the pve grind.  I'm already seeing people forgo pvp gear using raid gear and they are doing absurd damage.  The benefit of expertise is that it gives you more dps and you take less damage from players.  I'd much prefer that it act as a damage reduction only, but that's just me.  People are already dying too fast in pvp. 

No, I mean I enter naked or dressed to the nines and I have the same stats as the next guy.  Gear shouldn't matter at all in PvP.

[Nebu]

No, I mean I enter naked or dressed to the nines and I have the same stats as the next guy.  Gear shouldn't matter at all in PvP.

Giving everyone a standardized set of gear would be wonderful... assuming the classes were balanced.  That's the other issue.  

[Rendakor]

There's a disconnect here because we have two different types of people. Some want an (old school) FPS-like even playing field competition in PVP, while others see gear progression as a core part of the MMO experience. The problem with the first idea is that it would reveal very quickly who was good at the game and who was not; after the keyboard turners got wrecked a few times they'd just stop queuing. Of course, the goal of SWTOR isn't to be an eSport so excluding a large segment of your customers from something they may enjoy because they happen to suck at it is pretty stupid; imagine if all of the raiding content was as hard as Algalon, Sinestra, HM Rag, etc. and the devs just told the raiding community to L2P.

Allowing gear progression in PVP is key because it lets people know that they can get better if they just keep at it. Using a PVP stat keeps the two progression tiers (raiding and PVP) reasonably separate, so players never have to debate if it'd be easier to do one to gear up for the other. SWTOR is, at it's heart, a WoW clone so expecting something vastly different is unreasonable.

If PvP was twitch, and PvE was against AIs that didn't have a choreographed routine but instead had a more random or unpredictable repertoire of behaviors and tactics, most old-school MMO players would quit in a heartbeat. I happen to think there might be another group of potential players who would be attracted to that design, maybe enough to compensate for the loss or even grow the player base, but for the moment, poopsockers and poopsock designers continue to be trapped in a horrible, co-dependent relationship.

I agree with your first statement, and won't heavily argue the second, but SWTOR is not that game. It was never pitched as the challenging, eSport, new MMO revolution; it's WoW in space. You guys are barking up the wrong tree here.

[Mrbloodworth]

I wasn't expecting anything different.  Just commenting about those that did.

[Fordel]

Why are there stats in PvP at all?  Why is this such a hard solution?

Baseline it.  Allow stat trade-offs if you want to get fancy.  That's it.  Everyone shares the same stat pool.

Give nifty toys, lateral upgrades, and fancy looking gear.  Everyone wins.

Which is what DaoC did in a round about way, while still giving the people their skinner box (thats what it's called right?) fix if they wanted it.




The thing with pre-toa DaoC gear progression, it wasn't BETTER gear, it was WIDER, if that makes sense. Like an Item from the Shrouded Isles expansion (the one before ToA) made it EASIER to hit the caps, but you still couldn't break them. It just meant you only had to buy one fancy jewelry slot item instead of two.

Like in Swtor, my secondary stats are about the same as the top end PvP/PvE gear, except the top end tier gear has another like +40-60 aim/endurance per piece. That's like an extra 2000 hit points if I collected the new suit. It's pure inflation.

DaoC didn't have that (till ToA again). Once you hit the stamina cap in DaoC, that was it, no more for you. All the stats, all the resists and etc had hard caps. If you were on a budget, you could let a few resists slide, because of how the cross realm damage tables worked out, it wasn't the end of the world.

[Nebu]

Excellent point.  Once you hit the stat caps, the only thing gear did was grant special abilities that had to be managed. 

DAoC did a lot wrong but more right.  Shame those lessons haven't moved forward. 

[Furiously]

We had a jugg with 10k hps and the opposing team had one with 20k hps. We lost.