New Patch. Bonus: Comes with free violin for paladins.

[Phred]

Heh, I had (have) characters on Sargeras that were in Morphiend's guild. You sure you'd want to accept a traitor? 

Seriously though, I didn't stay on Sargeras long, but I think it was one of the only servers that I had Horde characters. I might as well keep 'em there. Thanks for the offer though.

EDIT: Anyways, how common are Holy disc Paladins these days? I figured a backlines healer like that would be the shit. Is there something I'm missing?

I don't see much lower down in the Holy tree that has a lot to do with healing. Other than Spiritual focus, Improved Holy Light, Illumination, and Divine Favor most of the rest of the tree is pretty damn useless IMO. I put points in improved Flash of Light but will probably respec out of it because I've yet to find a time when that spell is useful. Heal 350hp at L59? That's a tiny drop in the bucket. Right now I keep 2 Holy Lights loaded, the current level and one 2 levels lower for top up heals which still heals 650 hp and is way more useful than flash of light. I think the paladin makes a good backup healer but there's not much higher up in the tree to make it worth being heavy in holy. I went for most of the defensive skills from the other talent trees in my build with the points saved from not spending them in holy. I don't get up to blessing of kings sadly but my build is very survivable. At 60 I'm going to work a bit more on getting my int up so I can cast more than 5 or 6 heals before being oom. Unfortunately most of the drops and quest gear I've gotten has been more sta/str than sta/int.

And regarding the original thread topic. I had a tauran warrior I got up to 35. He was a bit twinked and I duoed him with a rl friend who played a druid so I built him to do damage as well as tank. At 35, according to the much maligned dps meter in cosmos, which however inaccurate, I would assume is at least consistant, the warrior was doing more damage than the "pre fixed" paladin. According to cosmos the warrior clocked out around 75-80 dps with a good blue 2h I bought in the  auction house, then with the cyclone sword from the warrior quest he was up around 80-90 dps. In comparison, the paladin with his blue 2h polearm at 35 was around 50-60 dps, even with the "bugged" crusader.

I hope the cosmos dps meter is bugged because according to the tooltip on my character sheet I should be getting 110 dps from my current weapon yet the highest I've hit with it is around 75. That's judging crusader then using seal of light. My judged seal of light hits for about 110 right now. I theorized that a fast 1 hand weapon would do quite decent dps with it but it seems I still do more damage with a 2 hander than a 1 hander. I guess they restrict the procs per minute same as eq did with their proc weapons.

Anyway, point is, you don't have to go holy spec to be a back line healer. Seventeen points is all I see needed to beef up your healing power as good as it can get.

[Calantus]

The big thing about a heavy investment into Holy is you get access to Holy Shock. It's quite crappy really when you consider it has a 30 second cooldown and the damage:mana ratio isn't even 1:1 but it's ranged and it's instant. One of the more popular duelist builds relies on a big 2-hander with judged SotC and SoC, then you slam down a holy shock for a surprisingly large amount of burst damage. It's also great for killing runners... and I assume good for adding to focus fire kills (was on a PVE server with my paladin).

Outside of PVP it's just WAY to mana inefficient to be worth it though.

[Riggswolfe]

It was a fix until some paladin actually shows some parsing indicating otherwise. The intent was +40% haste balanced against less damage per swing with any overall DPS bonus coming from the ATK boost. It's roughly equivalent to the warrior skill of battle shout but a lot less annoying to keep up. However blizzard stated it was adding +40% haste and a damage bonus per attack.

That;s what I said. That there was parsing. At least on the scale of the parsing that I've seen saying warriors aren't getting all their HPs each level.

[Riggswolfe]

Before I quit, I was in the process of making a Holy/Protection paladin, knowing retribution would be nerfed sooner or later. Is there anything in the patches from Jan-Feb that would ruin of my chances of that working OK (sorry if it's been asked before, I haven't kept up)? I liked priests, but a near indestructible healer is much more appealing, regardless if his heals are weaker or not

On a sidenote, such a character is pretty useless without a dependable guild or group for PvP, and definitely no fun xping alone with. Who's playing Alliance characters these days (on a PvP server)?

We have a few paladins in our guild. Only 1 of them is Holy/Prot specced and he is talking about respeccing. His healing is still not very good and he kills things so slow, especially after the Seal of Crusader nerf that the extra protection doesn't feel that useful to him. Essentially as it stands, about the only viable Paladin build uses alot of the Retribution tree.

[stray]

We have a few paladins in our guild. Only 1 of them is Holy/Prot specced and he is talking about respeccing. His healing is still not very good and he kills things so slow, especially after the Seal of Crusader nerf that the extra protection doesn't feel that useful to him. Essentially as it stands, about the only viable Paladin build uses alot of the Retribution tree.

Hmm, I wonder if it's as bad as he says, or that he just has envy from all the Retribution Paladins. I could care less about damage for Paladins. I just wanted a decent healer who could also keep himself alive more often.

[Riggswolfe]

We have a few paladins in our guild. Only 1 of them is Holy/Prot specced and he is talking about respeccing. His healing is still not very good and he kills things so slow, especially after the Seal of Crusader nerf that the extra protection doesn't feel that useful to him. Essentially as it stands, about the only viable Paladin build uses alot of the Retribution tree.

Hmm, I wonder if it's as bad as he says, or that he just has envy from all the Retribution Paladins. I could care less about damage for Paladins. I just wanted a decent healer who could also keep himself alive more often.

Well, the biggest problem he has is that he finds soloing to be even more painfully slow than a retribution paladin does, and he still doesn't feel like he competes with a good priest or druid in healing. As well he doesn't think Holy Shock is as useful as he'd hoped.

[Calantus]

Well, the biggest problem he has is that he finds soloing to be even more painfully slow than a retribution paladin does, and he still doesn't feel like he competes with a good priest or druid in healing. As well he doesn't think Holy Shock is as useful as he'd hoped.

Well yeah, Holy Shock is mighty disappointing if you expect it to be good in a vaccuum. In any case, tell him to try using seal of righteousness as his main seal. The way it works is you seal up with SotC, judge that, then use seal of righteousness and judge that when judgement becomes available and renew it. It's pretty decent damage at not too much mana expendidure, but it's really the only way to go as a holy/X paladin for solo damage IMO. Also, if you're on a PVE server then Holy Shield is a much much better source of additional holy damage. Unfortunately he wont have enough talents to try Holy Shield without respec, but he'll have the talents to try righteousness. Personally I think he'd be served by trying it before he respecs and thus have to pay if he gets curious later.

[Hoax]

I've always argued that a int gear pally would be the most powerful support pvp character in the game.

There are a few counters I've heard:
-blue plate never has int

Ok make that one counter I didn't think was bullshit.  The heal is 2.5sec, its 70% non interrupt from damage and its sizable enough to make a difference in pvp.  Think of it as a Crusader that isn't broken w/ an aoe.

[WayAbvPar]

New patch today -

World of Warcraft Client Patch 1.2.4 (2005-02-22)

* We have deployed a client-side change that should improve performance when large numbers of players are gathered in a small area of the world. No other changes are included with this emergency patch.

Anyone played yet? Did this bust all the UI mods again? I keep holding off on using any of the addons because I don't want to fight with them every time there is a patch.

[Miasma]

Anyone played yet? Did this bust all the UI mods again? I keep holding off on using any of the addons because I don't want to fight with them every time there is a patch.

When I was playing there was an ability to turn off blizzard's checking of the UI version, it was buried somewhere in the options.  Unless they changed that you can just check that box and not have to worry about the UI's version number.

Edit: It is in the character selection screen, Add ons button.

[Sky]

I never found paladins overly powerful, just overly fucking annoying. 

Complete agreement. Paladins fall under "don't bother" in my pvp lexicon. The time it takes to finally wear one down is better spent killing several non-paladin alliance. Or dying. Or doing anything besides watching "Immune" and the palladin's health bar fill back up....again...

It's a bit shortsighted to think people won't be upset when you have a way to become totally immune to damage for a while and nobody else does (and nobody at all on the horde side). Kinda like having an alliance-only racial invisibility or something.

[Righ]

Playing Horde with the current imbalance is griefing yourself anyhow. I was a little shocked when I discovered that there are a pair of "Frostsaber Trainers" in Winterspring that give a faction-based quest series, all three of which need to be repeated 62 times. Complete the 186 quests, and you have the opportunity to purchase a pretty exclusive elite mount. Yes, a dwarven paladin can ride a lavender tiger. It turns out that the Horde equivalent is the "Ravasaur Trainers" in Un'Goro Crater. I've seen both of them, but they never wanted to talk. However, I hadn't tried at level 60. So I took the long trip over there to talk to the trainers. Nothing.

I sent an in-game petition regarding the quest giver, and asking when it was likely that these quests would be available. I got a reply back by email saying, and I fucking quote verbatim... "The situation you reported is a not a bug, and should be functioning normally.  If this is in regards to a quest, please read the quest description in its entirety."

The point here is that there isn't a quest description. The wanker in the crater won't give a quest.

It's as bad as the lack of any drops in Silithus. My theory there is that because the "key" item to open the instance in the south is a random zone drop, and they haven't finished coding the instance (which is one of the toughest raid instances they have planned), so they just stopped mobs in the zone dropping anything. For a laugh, try skinning one. You get the skinning animation and timer, followed by "there was no drop to get". Needless to say, this is also "working as intended".

[schild]

"The situation you reported is a not a bug, and should be functioning normally.  If this is in regards to a quest, please read the quest description in its entirety."

Awesome.

[Sky]

Playing Horde with the current imbalance is griefing yourself anyhow.

Horde and the last-minute, still-buggy hunter class, to boot!

Hell, it was so nice last night to play a mage newbie (on one of the new rp servers) and be able to actually hit all mobs no matter how far away they were (the hunter's well-exploited zone of helplessness between melee and ranged). The rather huge Aspect of the Hawk bug, too. Pretty buggy class. Better nerf paladins.

[MrHat]

It's as bad as the lack of any drops in Silithus. My theory there is that because the "key" item to open the instance in the south is a random zone drop, and they haven't finished coding the instance (which is one of the toughest raid instances they have planned), so they just stopped mobs in the zone dropping anything. For a laugh, try skinning one. You get the skinning animation and timer, followed by "there was no drop to get". Needless to say, this is also "working as intended".

http://wow.ogaming.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4569

Seems that you're right.

[Dren]

I never found paladins overly powerful, just overly fucking annoying. 

Complete agreement. Paladins fall under "don't bother" in my pvp lexicon. The time it takes to finally wear one down is better spent killing several non-paladin alliance. Or dying. Or doing anything besides watching "Immune" and the palladin's health bar fill back up....again...

It's a bit shortsighted to think people won't be upset when you have a way to become totally immune to damage for a while and nobody else does (and nobody at all on the horde side). Kinda like having an alliance-only racial invisibility or something.

Yes, I suppose, but I can't attack you while invulnerable from one power and the other makes me hit at 1/2 speed.  You might as well take that time to heal yourself too (bandages, potions, powers, etc.)  We won't be damaging you except for maybe engineering skills or consecration (relatively low damage AOE.)

All our invulnerability powers do is delay the outcome of a fight if we fight anyone that can play their character well.  Most, though, see "Immune" and start to panic.

Several higher level Bosses have this ability and people seem to get by it.  We typically use that time to buff and heal up.

/shrug

By the way, we aren't the only ones.  Priests have Power Word: Shield.  It doesn't delay your attacks at all and can be cast on other players.  I play a priest too.  That power is uber.

[Miasma]

Several higher level Bosses have this ability and people seem to get by it.

Only a paladin could compare his powers to 'Higher level Bosses' and fail to understand why people think they are overpowered.

[Sky]

Several higher level Bosses have this ability and people seem to get by it.

Only a paladin could compare his powers to 'Higher level Bosses' and fail to understand why people think they are overpowered.

Hah! I was thinking the same thing. Hey, lots of npcs have invisibility, why should we bitch that Night Elves get it and no other player race?

All our invulnerability powers do is delay the outcome of a fight if we fight anyone that can play their character well.

Which is the point. Of course I heal up while a paladin is immune. It prolongs the battle to annoying lengths, two to three times as long as fighting any other class. Now I use the time to mount up and go somewhere less annoying, or lure him into an ambush so we can get it over faster.

[Righ]

I got bored effing around with a level 60 paladin 1v1 last night. He couldn't get near me, even had trouble putting enough hurt on my dog, and I couldn't do enough damage between his invulns and heals (how was that ever a 5 minute cooldown, the timer's broken). It's a waste of time and arrows. Call in a mage and find something more fun to kill.

[Dren]

Several higher level Bosses have this ability and people seem to get by it.

Only a paladin could compare his powers to 'Higher level Bosses' and fail to understand why people think they are overpowered.

Yeah, you can make anything sounds that way when taken out of context.  You ignored my point and focused on my comparing a power to a mob's?  Plus, I meant higher level meaning around 24 elite (Scarlet Monastery anyone?)  Yeah, that's totally uber!  That's a nice way to end a meaningful argument, with a statement that means nothing and seems more like a personal attack.  Thanks.

Sky, are you saying that all classes should have the powers of the others?  Stealthing for all?  What's your point?

My point?  Yeah, Pally's have some uber powers, but if you play your class right, you can beat them or leave em.  You can continue to make snide remarks about them having some power you don't, but that doesn't solve anything. 

Or you can continue to focus on a few powers OTHER classes have and h8.  Whatever.

Meanwhile, I've moved from my Paladin to a Priest.  I'm blazing through levels much faster with him.

[Miasma]

It certainly wasn't meant to be a personal attack, maybe I should have added a winky smile or something. It was just a free shot at paladins in general. They are just very aggravating to fight, sort of like mobs in EQ who would complete heal themselves. If you made a horde priest you might one day begin to understand why paladins are so reviled.

I've sworn off PvP now that I've resubscribed so I don't really care if they nerf paladins. In general I'm against nerfs as they start a never-ending cycle.

[Righ]

It's as bad as the lack of any drops in Silithus. My theory there is that because the "key" item to open the instance in the south is a random zone drop, and they haven't finished coding the instance (which is one of the toughest raid instances they have planned), so they just stopped mobs in the zone dropping anything. For a laugh, try skinning one. You get the skinning animation and timer, followed by "there was no drop to get". Needless to say, this is also "working as intended".

http://wow.ogaming.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4569

Seems that you're right.

Google, the translator of, he say:

USA'S Computer the Games magazine issued some new WOW information. Includes several transcriptions some news which soon opens. Included 5 person of transcriptions, the RAID transcription, the epic poem duty correlation transcription. Natural, but also has the Austria 特兰特 mountain, first battlefield transcription.

QUOTE
Dire Maul


This ever great metropolis now already was everywhere the ruins. Eldre' thalas one is in the original Kalimdor mainland the biggest dark night of demon city, the upper classes of society lives together, Austria technique research center. But destroys after in the original Kalimdor mainland big collapse, these have the noble blood relationship the evil spirit masters are cursed forever pace back and forth in this ruins. This city was lost abandons becomes hundred over a thousand year, occupied here king Gordok until food person evil spirit. Now, eats the person evil spirits firmly controls this city, attempts to obtain the Austria technique evil spirit method from these evil spirits master spirit secret. Some rumors said, one group of satyr also dives into and hides inside the ruins, for realize their plot explores this antiquity city loses the mark.

Dire maul is one units place to 法拉斯 47-56 level of transcriptions. Same like the scarlet monastery, this transcription also divides into several independent parts.

QUOTE
Blackwing Lair


In above the black pinnacle burning crest, is situated the dangerous black wing lair. There originally is the black iron fort one part, recently actually appropriates to oneself by ominous wicked black dragon Nefarian. Organization's lackey protects by the frantic dragon person and Black the Flight. The black wing lair is entire Chinese mugwort Ze in the Russ world one most dangerous place. In order to protect its dirty collar and the dark sacrificial altar, Nefarian all cannot be softhearted to any intruder. Only has the person which these bravely treads the nightfall wing lair, only then some possibilities discover Black Dragonflight the astonishing secret, opens them re- rules the world the true plan!

The black wing lair is locates upside the black pinnacle one RAID transcription, is suitable for 40 goes against the level plays the family challenges.

QUOTE
Zul' Gurub


Zul' Gurub was already the Gurubashi empire capital which collapsed. This empire once ruled the thorn valley land and South China Sea's massive islands. Zul' Gurub now still and they " sacred " the Hakkari pastor guarded for these food person's great evil spirit. Some people think these evil pastors want to cause their ancient 嗜血 god Hakkar to seize the work rebirth. Very has the possibility Hakkar rebirth the secret hides in this great evil spirit city loses inside the mark. However, any has not trod that stretch of barbaric land the person, can live comes back confirms these rumors.

Zul' gurub is locates the thorn valley 55-60 level of transcriptions. Suits 5 people plays the family troop challenge.

QUOTE
Ahn' Quiraj


About ancient Ahn' The Quiraj kingdom, we know really few. Only concerns to its inventor's fragmentary fable - riddle general Quiraji master. In the dark night of demon fable, Quiraji is called Silithid with that kind between the insect same fearful race has close contacting. Some one point was now already Ming Le Di: In the bleak desert, after their kingdom giant city wall, the Quiraji activity started to enliven again again. The Sillithid influence also starts in the south Kalimdor various regions to grow. Nobody knows if Ahn' The Quiraj front door the speech which opens, how can have the evil thing gushes out from the center.

Ahn' Gate the Quiraj only can play the family duty by way of one the stimulation opens. Once that leafed door is opened, after in the server all plays the families all may explore the gate land, that is one perfect RAID region, suits 40 goes against the level plays the family challenges. On the open desert, in the profound lair, waits for you are the various strange bitter experience.

QUOTE
Karazhan Tower


In the valley, the Karazhan tower is against the wind orphaned toweringly bank to the steep mountain peak, as if related it former days the honor. There once was the protection Mai Di Wen homeland and the saint institute, but today Karazhan tower the village all completely turned the bleak ruins with it periphery. Now, this tower became the rest death biology homeland. Some rumors said Mai Di Wen in the laboratory and the library hides to the distortion void channel key. The person comes back which from that dark tower said, the tower upper formation loafs the terror devil. Although does not know who the now is truly controls this tower, but definitely had certain evil forces enlightens in the tower in this wheat which the article stayed behind grips the root.

The Karazhan tower is for goes against the level 5 people plays the family troop designs. The entire tower divides into several independent parts, each part all may regard as one independent underground city. Each such part all has at least 3 different entrances.