Front Page Story: LA Times

[FieryBalrog]

Single player RPGs still exist for voiced content. It's not the main reason I'm going to stay subscribed to something, especially when singleplayer RPGs can give you much more impact, branching choices and less padding.

TOR being an MMO means the actual dialogue choices are very thin on the ground. Not that Bioware has ever excelled in this area (compare something like Alpha Protocol).

Even going through Black Talon, apart from the one Big Decision, the conversation mostly consists of choosing between "Yeah!" "So?" and "Ummm...". The occasional super-snark response is nice- but the rest of the time it doesn't feel even slightly meaningful who wins the roll, it just takes forever.

There are other places the seams become apparent. Whenever you use a provocative or insulting response the camera does the patented Bioware close-up on the NPC's angry face and then abruptly cuts back to him politely giving you further instructions. In that moment the illusion parts a little, revealing the animatronic robot underneath.

[Malakili]

The problem YOU guys are having, is you have been so programed that Ding/loot is all that matters, you see a cinematic not as part of the game, but an impedance to your ding/loot.

Well, that is probably true.  But like I said in my previous post, if they brought people caring about the story line to the MMO genre, then great.  But they are going to be tasked with pumping out voiced, acted content at an unprecedented level if they want to compete in a market based on retention.  That is what that article was about - Bioware trying to make a splash in the MMO space.   I'll concede without argument that TOR is a fine RPG, with what probably amounts to more (story) content than any other to date, or at least in recent memory.  I'm willing to concede the story is good, and that the voice acting with cinematics and dialog choices is good.  But whether or not that translates into long term MMO success remains to me seen.  If it does, then great.  But to me it is a separate question from whether or not the game is good.

[waffel]

I get information from reading much faster and efficiently than I can by talking.

Not really the point. I Too can read a book faster than the movie based on it plays out. Some of you may have to face it, you are old gamers. No one but old people play MUDS. SWTOR is the first of many MMO's that will be fully voiced, coming more inline with other game genres. The problem YOU guys are having, is you have been so programed that Ding/loot is all that matters, you see a cinematic not as part of the game, but an impedance to your ding/loot.

It's Friday, bro.  Relax.  

He has a very good point. Veteran MMO gamers might not get boners over non-stop voiceovers and an illusion of choice with quest dialog, but new gamers seem to find it immersive and a step forward. However, I highly doubt its the 'wave of the future' and that new MMOs will adopt it. Didn't this game cost over 200 million to make?

[Rokal]

On the flip side, bad voice acting will be a thousand times worse than lifeless text. Be careful what you wish for. The next WoW expansion could be entirely voiced by the Tyrande actress, for example.

I'm not going to argue that the voice acting in SWTOR isn't innovative, but I'm not sure it's actually a good thing for MMOs as they are now. It's going to lead to additional SWTOR content being far more expensive and time consuming to make, and most MMOs aren't exactly hitting rapid content cycles even without that extra work. The better innovation for developers and us will be in gameplay.

[Venkman]

The problem YOU guys are having, is you have been so programed that Ding/loot is all that matters, you see a cinematic not as part of the game, but an impedance to your ding/loot.

The voiceovers have nothing to do with the ding/loot, and in fact has nothing to do with actually playing of the game. It's merely a layer, a spectacle required because other genres have added that cost to their development too. EQ2 was the first MMO to try and use this as a marketing hook. They were also first to quickly realize how much of a money sink it is. No other genre needs to deal with monthly or quarterly content patches that add new quests, and therefore hundreds or thousands of lines of new dialog in multiple languages.

But at least the IP has an innate advantage. Just make all successive content and expansion packs be about insects, robots and wookiees 

It's also a little late in the day to be indicting the MMO (and RPG) playerbase for skipping past cutscenes and flavor text ;)

Didn't this game cost over 200 million to make?

Nobody really knows for sure, but there seems to be a range between what the LA Times thinks and about half a billion dollars. Darts at a board as far as I'm concerned. If you account for the multi lingual launch, the combined salaries of everyone who ever worked on it, allt he sub-contractors, any WGA/SAG rates, the tools, systems, relationships, license royalty upfronts, Bioware overhead and then later EA overhead, plus the writedowns from EA having purchased Elevation Partners, it probably could be in the $500mm range. But how much of that is specific to SWTOR versus how much of it will be leveraged across other things, no idea. $200m-500m sounds right, though laughably broad :)

[Margalis]

The problem YOU guys are having, is you have been so programed that Ding/loot is all that matters, you see a cinematic not as part of the game, but an impedance to your ding/loot.

That's not an us problem, that's a problem with the fundamental game design. The choice/voice stuff is very clearly a thin layer on top of the ding/loot core game. They don't even try to hide it, with stuff like an indicator telling you what kind of points you will get for each, equipment tied to those points, etc.

SWTOR is not a story-based MMO, it's a standard MMO with some story bits on top. The game is not designed to be centered around the story and choices. You could completely extract the story layer and the underlying game would be almost unchanged.

If you were going to conceptualize a story-based MMO from the ground up you'd probably end up with a very different game. A game that revolved around choices, conversations and puzzles more than combat.

[Ratman_tf]

There are other places the seams become apparent. Whenever you use a provocative or insulting response the camera does the patented Bioware close-up on the NPC's angry face and then abruptly cuts back to him politely giving you further instructions. In that moment the illusion parts a little, revealing the animatronic robot underneath.

I had one conversation with Thana, that was getting rather heated (I love that character) but she was just staring off into space like a Real Doll, instead of looking at my character.  

[Kageru]

I'd love high quality voice acting, excellent writing and deep dialog branches if it was free, which it is not. If they're spending money the WoW approach of limiting exposition, adding story events into the gameplay and using voiced cut-scenes for pivotal moments is far more sensible. They embroidered the leveling process, at a substantial investment, but that's not the problem holding MMO's back.

Even among its interactive peers, the Old Republic is touted as a great leap forward. Much as the first “Star Wars” movie in 1977 changed film history.

It what? It was a really fun sci-fi space opera but that's a bit much.

[Velorath]

Even among its interactive peers, the Old Republic is touted as a great leap forward. Much as the first “Star Wars” movie in 1977 changed film history.

It what? It was a really fun sci-fi space opera but that's a bit much.

I realize it must seem cool to downplay it, but can you honestly not acknowledge that Star Wars had a big effect on the film industry?

[Kageru]

They use the transition from silent films to films with an audio track. I'm pretty sure Star Wars did not "change film history" in the same way.

It was a fun pop-corn flick, Harrison Ford made the rest of them look like terrible actors, and that was all I got out of it. Oh, maybe it was the first film to make merchandising a massive part of profit?

[Furiously]

SWTOR is not just voice overs. There is also the branching dialog and cinematics as well. Kind of a big thing.

wait... It branches where?  I think they were all linear..

[Rasix]

My intention wasn't to start negativity or anything.  I live in Los Angeles, and we can't drive around town without seeing 20+ billboard/bus stop advertisements for SWTOR.  Some take up the entire side of office buildings.  Today I sit down to read the print version of the Los Angeles times and there is the story, on the front page.  The front page!  War stories aren't even on the front page anymore.

Keep in mind that I'm alt tabbed from the game right now.  It's all just interesting to me.  Advertising is weird.  Advertisements in the form of stories on the front page of major newspapers, even more so.

See what a I mean.   

[Ratman_tf]

They use the transition from silent films to films with an audio track. I'm pretty sure Star Wars did not "change film history" in the same way.

It was a fun pop-corn flick, Harrison Ford made the rest of them look like terrible actors, and that was all I got out of it. Oh, maybe it was the first film to make merchandising a massive part of profit?

On the technical side, nearly every movie uses THX sound, and the movies gave rise to Industrial Light and Magic, Skywalker Sound, and Lucasfilm.
But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

I think it's a valid comparison.

[Ingmar]

They use the transition from silent films to films with an audio track. I'm pretty sure Star Wars did not "change film history" in the same way.

It was a fun pop-corn flick, Harrison Ford made the rest of them look like terrible actors, and that was all I got out of it. Oh, maybe it was the first film to make merchandising a massive part of profit?

On the technical side, nearly every movie uses THX sound, and the movies gave rise to Industrial Light and Magic, Skywalker Sound, and Lucasfilm.
But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

I think it's a valid comparison.

It also changed a lot about how actor's fees work, etc.

[UnSub]

That article pegs SWOR's development cost at US$200m. I'd be curious about their source, but it isn't out of the question.

[FieryBalrog]

They use the transition from silent films to films with an audio track. I'm pretty sure Star Wars did not "change film history" in the same way.

It was a fun pop-corn flick, Harrison Ford made the rest of them look like terrible actors, and that was all I got out of it. Oh, maybe it was the first film to make merchandising a massive part of profit?

On the technical side, nearly every movie uses THX sound, and the movies gave rise to Industrial Light and Magic, Skywalker Sound, and Lucasfilm.
But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

I think it's a valid comparison.

What, Ben-Hur doesn't count? 

[Bunk]

There's certainly a demographic out there of people who will be brought in (or back) by the extra layers of story and voice over. I'm one of them - the only MMO to get an actual purchase out of me since WoW was Conan, and I dropped that within three days of completing Tortage. Personally, I could care less if I ever reach Max level, if I ever PVP, or if I ever get uber at raiding. For me, its about completing the story - that's what keeps me plodding through. I enjoy the ding gratz, but if that's all I needed, I'd have played one of the many other games that came since WoW.

Now is there enough story content there, with enough time to add more, to keep me satisfied at the rate I play? Don't know yet. There are a shit ton of gamers out there that have busy lives and limited time to play. At my current rate, I figure it will take me at least another month if not two to hit 50 on my first guy.

[eldaec]

SWTOR is not just voice overs. There is also the branching dialog and cinematics as well. Kind of a big thing.

wait... It branches where?  I think they were all linear..

Some of the classes have more branching than others, SW Jaesa is the obvious example, there is a SI thing with the cult. But yeah, most are more 'pick your quest ending for a different VO grats message' or 'do you want to fight this optional guy for extra loot?' than an actual content branch.

[Threash]

Lack fully voiced NPCs is going to seem pretty lame in future MMOs.   It'll be tolerable, but it'll just feel like the game was done on the cheap.  I think this game shows that you either need to go full on or just forget it.   AoC's partial-talky was so jarring.

^ This. I said it in another thread but if TOR fails it may kill MMOS for me. I just can't go back to the old way now that I've had a much more interactive experience.

I'm quite the opposite.  I am ready to go back to Rift, the things this game lacks like dual (hell, triple quadruple and quintuple) specs and macroing are the ones i can't do without.  The voice acting and cinematics made leveling a lot better, but i play MMOs for the endgame not the leveling.

[Surlyboi]

Lack fully voiced NPCs is going to seem pretty lame in future MMOs.   It'll be tolerable, but it'll just feel like the game was done on the cheap.  I think this game shows that you either need to go full on or just forget it.   AoC's partial-talky was so jarring.

^ This. I said it in another thread but if TOR fails it may kill MMOS for me. I just can't go back to the old way now that I've had a much more interactive experience.

I'm quite the opposite.  I am ready to go back to Rift, the things this game lacks like dual (hell, triple quadruple and quintuple) specs and macroing are the ones i can't do without.  The voice acting and cinematics made leveling a lot better, but i play MMOs for the endgame not the leveling.

Fuck endgame.

The one MMO I played for the "endgame" was EQ and even then the concept of an endgame in an MMO seemed asinine.

To each their own, I guess.

[Malakili]

Fuck endgame.

The one MMO I played for the "endgame" was EQ and even then the concept of an endgame in an MMO seemed asinine.

To each their own, I guess.

RPGs are about progression.  Endgame is just a word for "progression after max level."  It isn't anything special, it just moves progression from levels to items.  Given that levels usually take a lot less time, and the population is eventually majority at max level the "end game" is just the progression that most people end up doing in the long term.   Because a large pool of players ends up there for a long period of time, content repetition is required because it would simply be impossible to create content as fast as players can complete if they are only doing it once.

[Surlyboi]

I know exactly what endgame is. I still think the concept is stupid and the people that race to get there and then bitch about there's no there there amuse me to no end.

[eldaec]

content repetition is required because it would simply be impossible to create content as fast as players can complete if they are only doing it once.

Why do you think it is possible to make TV at a rate that you only watch once, but not MMOG quests?

And bear in mind TV is 100% cutscene (or at least 66% if you watch in the US and don't have tivo), SWTOR is much less than 10%.

I appreciate they aren't going to make content fast enough that Sjofn will only see it once, but there is little excuse for a 10 hour/week normal person. Unless you are arguing that EA's scripting and acting is genuinely on a higher level than trash TV?

[Threash]

I know exactly what endgame is. I still think the concept is stupid and the people that race to get there and then bitch about there's no there there amuse me to no end.

I wasn't bitching that there wasn't an endgame, i was bitching that it is inferior to Rift and WoW.  Making the leveling more fun got me through the first month, now what's left sucks.

[Ratman_tf]

I know exactly what endgame is. I still think the concept is stupid and the people that race to get there and then bitch about there's no there there amuse me to no end.

I blame fast leveling and steep power curves.

I'm in a friends guild, and none of us are within grouping range right now. I hate to PUG shit, so I just level solo and hope that everyone hits the cap at roughly the same time. Though we had one friend get in the early program, and he hit 50 in a couple of weeks. 
In any case, at 50 we can't gain anymore levels, and item progression is probably going to require grouping, so I'll finally get to play with my friends, when we're all doing the endgame.  Those that stick it out to the end, anyway.  I think the most likely scenario is that people are going to get burnt out within the next couple of months and disperse to whatever other games they were playing before TOR, and I'll feel like I blew 70 bucks on a shitty single player online game. 

[Sjofn]

I appreciate they aren't going to make content fast enough that Sjofn will only see it once, but there is little excuse for a 10 hour/week normal person. Unless you are arguing that EA's scripting and acting is genuinely on a higher level than trash TV?

Hey, I've only finished one storyline so far! I just started act 3 on the trooper. I HAVE PLENTY LEFT. 

I don't know how hard it is to animate a cut scene versus stage something, though. Once all the pieces are in place, it really is literally just "write script, film actors" for the mostpart, because people do not complain when their shitty sitcom takes place in the same room every week. Gamers would absolutely be pissed off if they used the same place every patch for the new content.

[eldaec]

I know exactly what endgame is. I still think the concept is stupid and the people that race to get there and then bitch about there's no there there amuse me to no end.

I blame fast leveling and steep power curves.

I'm in a friends guild, and none of us are within grouping range right now. I hate to PUG shit, so I just level solo and hope that everyone hits the cap at roughly the same time. Though we had one friend get in the early program, and he hit 50 in a couple of weeks. 
In any case, at 50 we can't gain anymore levels, and item progression is probably going to require grouping, so I'll finally get to play with my friends, when we're all doing the endgame.  Those that stick it out to the end, anyway.  I think the most likely scenario is that people are going to get burnt out within the next couple of months and disperse to whatever other games they were playing before TOR, and I'll feel like I blew 70 bucks on a shitty single player online game. 

Game needs sidekicking. Beats me why it is considered acceptable to launch a game without it.

Pvp demonstrates that it is perfectly achievable.

[Rendakor]

Why do you think it is possible to make TV at a rate that you only watch once, but not MMOG quests?

And bear in mind TV is 100% cutscene (or at least 66% if you watch in the US and don't have tivo), SWTOR is much less than 10%.

I appreciate they aren't going to make content fast enough that Sjofn will only see it once, but there is little excuse for a 10 hour/week normal person. Unless you are arguing that EA's scripting and acting is genuinely on a higher level than trash TV?

No TV show comes out with 10 hours of content a week; most do 20m or 40m worth.

[Threash]

And they do it months in advance with very long breaks in between seasons.

[eldaec]

How many hours of cutscenes do you watch in ten hours of play?

[Margalis]

But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

Jaws came out 2 years before Star Wars and is universally considered the first big fun summer blockbuster that changed the movie industry.

The idea that Star Wars was the originator of the pop-corn flick is pure wishful thinking.

[SurfD]

But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

Jaws came out 2 years before Star Wars and is universally considered the first big fun summer blockbuster that changed the movie industry.

The idea that Star Wars was the originator of the pop-corn flick is pure wishful thinking.

Maybe the originator of the Pop-corn space opera then?

[Amaron]

I cannot go back to being a side character in Metzen's Thrall fanfics, that's all I know.

It's going to be interesting to see if Blizzard even attempts to fix this.   Most people ignore WoW lore but if they have to start adding "story" and voice acting then that crap isn't going to fly.

[Ratman_tf]

But most importantly, Star Wars was the first fun pop-corn flick.

Jaws came out 2 years before Star Wars and is universally considered the first big fun summer blockbuster that changed the movie industry.

The idea that Star Wars was the originator of the pop-corn flick is pure wishful thinking.

 

[tmp]

I don't know how hard it is to animate a cut scene versus stage something, though.

I suspect the cutscenes eat considerably more time. Mind you, this is based only on experience with the cutscenes, but the ratio is something like few hours of work per minute of scene if it's supposed to looks decent in the end.

On the other hand, this can be area where the Kinect may have large impact on productivity -- because it potentially allows to have some (relatively) cheap and fast/easy to use individual mocap "studio" for each animator. Meaning a lot of what's now painfully put together by hand from stock animation pieces could be just acted out, exactly like needed, at the speed approaching the tv/movie production.