Q23 - This is what happens when your admin isn't me.

[Ironwood]

Lately, yes.

Though Batman AC was good and so was Skyrim.  Just over too soon.

[Yegolev]

I'm still working on both of those.  So far Skyrim hasn't deleted any NPCs that I require for the main quest.

I do feel bad for the people whose community was lost over at Q23, same as I do for people whose riverside house floods after a torrential rain.  Maybe move into the hills, away from Tom.

[Paelos]

So I guess I'll thank Schild for not being a raging admin dick.

Also, I send him money for serverz yearly so we can have nice things. You all should too. Especially you lurker types.

[tgr]

Wait sinij is banned? That made this year's contribution worth it.

[Ingmar]

Just caught up on the last few days, and holy shit the Brad Wardell stuff is  .

[Sheepherder]

Meh.  Chick may be crazy, but it sounds as if they are just having a long overdue dump of their Politics board fanatics.

I wasn’t making a moral pronouncement on what UPS had done. I was simply annoyed by what they were doing. If people want to boycott my company as a result, that’s certainly their right. Of course, I suspect they assume that if their boycott were successful and I had to lay people off that I wouldn’t do so based on the ideology of the employee.

The asylum is in good hands people, just don't look him directly in the eye, it upsets him.

[IainC]

Meh.  Chick may be crazy, but it sounds as if they are just having a long overdue dump of their Politics board fanatics.  Not that we have any of those around here...... 

No, that's really not what's happening here. A lot of people banned never really posted much in P&R, many of the more excitable P&R posters aren't banned.

[Arthur_Parker]

StGabe

Mentioning F13, FWIW, doesn't really make me feel better. I left that place for Qt3 specifically because I felt like it was way too cliquey and certain popular posters would shout down anyone they didn't like with a pile-on to follow if the poster kept up.

I almost responded there and then thought, I'm more interested in what people here think.  It would be nice to see some new posters here, any plans for the front page?

Edited to remove a sentence that annoys Margalis.

[Margalis]

99% of the time moderation works in favor of cliques rather than against, especially on sites that are centered on sycophancy and a cult of personality.

The idea that Tom Chick banning people because they disagree with his opinion on The Hurt Locker somehow fights against cliquishness is more than a little odd.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well I think StGabe is a little odd, but I was more interested in the first two sentences than the third, which was why I focused on new blood rather than the relativity low level of banning events here.

There, edited it out.  

edit 2 Ah ok, I honestly hadn't read his last posts here, if I had I wouldn't have brought this up.

[apocrypha]

StGabe

Mentioning F13, FWIW, doesn't really make me feel better. I left that place for Qt3 specifically because I felt like it was way too cliquey and certain popular posters would shout down anyone they didn't like with a pile-on to follow if the poster kept up.

I almost responded there and then thought, I'm more interested in what people here think.  It would be nice to see some new posters here, any plans for the front page?

Edited to remove a sentence that annoys Margalis.

There is an element of truth to what he says. It's probably not apparent to most of the long-term posters here because you're used to it, but the level of actual debate between people with differing viewpoints here is extremely low, and mostly consists of opposing camps attempting to browbeat each other and treating conflicting views as if they are a foreign language.

However, that doesn't stop f13 from being mostly entertaining, often informative and rarely offensive, which isn't a combination found in many other online communites that I've frequented.

[Sheepherder]

StGabe going to weigh in on this one or what?

Naw.  Most on this board have adequately demonstrated that they aren't really interested in outside opinions or the notion that game designers might design games that aren't personally appealing (and only acquire audiences of a few thousand other people, oh noes).  So why bother?  I'd just get called a catass (even though I've been so busy with work and having a life that I haven't logged into any online game in a month now).

I do find humor in the bits where this forum intimated as being representative of hardcore gamers (after having chased off, out-yelled, and otherwise pissed off anyone who has a different opinion as to what is fun hardcore gameplay).

Gabe.

Whoa there dickhead, you were chased off for being a total fanboi and for not using the fucking quote function. Your opinion would have been welcomed if it weren't for those two little bits there, believe it or not. Yes, that's right, it had more to do with HOW you posted rather than WHAT you posted. I'd touch on the other shit you said, but it's not raging douchebag week.

[Ironwood]

Man, Good Old Hanzii.  I wondered where he went ! 

Good to see he's still alive.

[Arthur_Parker]

God, I don't even remember some of that stuff.

[Merusk]

Schild said what needed to be said about StGabe in particular.

As to the other bits, yes we do treat new posters a bit rough, (or did, things have mellowed in the last 5 years.)  Gabe was run-off in Dec 2006 - 5 years ago.  Here's the Profile link to peruse his/her postings. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=profile;u=884;sa=showPosts

Rather than confess to being wrong, finding something to back-up their points and support their argument or simply saying "meh, whatever guys" he ran off.   The usual fragile-egoed response to being unable to back your shit up.  We don't hate new people we just want them to back it up with valid arguments.  Given the .edu address at the time Gabe was one of the first of the "participation trophy" generation who upon being actually challenged chose to protect their ego rather than examine their argument. 

The fact that the community HAS added many more people to replace the ones who have left in that 5 year period is the best refutation of the 'no new memberz!' line Gabe is trying to push.   Unless I somehow missed Sojfn, Ingmar, etc on previous boards.   The last 18 months has seen a dearth of actual posters, but I attribute that to web forums dying as Facebook & Twitter take over more than our particular brand of fire and brimstone.   It'd be like an old Usenet group bitching that nobody new reads their feeds.

[Arthur_Parker]

Rather than confess to being wrong, finding something to back-up their points and support their argument or simply saying "meh, whatever guys" he ran off.   The usual fragile-egoed response to being unable to back your shit up.  We don't hate new people we just want them to back it up with valid arguments.

There's definitely a point to be made, check the posters in this thread, then check the last two years worth of members by registration date on the member list, while glancing at their post counts.  But as I quoted someone who's a bit odd, I wouldn't be off to a good start making it here, I'm just not sure we could get past that.

Besides, there's always the chance that people prefer things how they are.

I could easily defend the view that expressing an opinion might get everyone to gang up and shout you down, and I challenge everyone to call me on that one  

I tried to drop it because I could easily see how Margalis might think I was having a dig at him, when Gabe's last thread was just a fluke and I wasn't.

[Merusk]

I did look at the list, which is why I said the last 18 months of reg. were pretty bleak.  I gave my own explanation for it up above.

That said, yes, there are some topics which the community groupthink has decided are done and will shout-down naysayers about.  Or old topics that don't need to be rehashed just because a fresh-faced person thinks they have a new idea which then turns out to be one of the points already ground into pate. That's the baggage of being an old community.

[Ironwood]

There's definitely a point to be made, check the posters in this thread, then check the last two years worth of members by registration date on the member list, while glancing at their post counts.  But as I quoted someone who's a bit odd, I wouldn't be off to a good start making it here, I'm just not sure we could get past that.

I think we could.

[Margalis]

When I eventually go out I hope it's over something better than me claiming that Lost introduced some sort of amazing and new character-driven story structure that makes all older fiction and writing techniques pale by comparison.

I tried to drop it because I could easily see how Margalis might think I was having a dig at him

Why would I consider you quoting a dude on another forum who did not mention me a dig at me? Maybe I am "popular posters"?   Like, I don't even get how I could possibly see that as a dig.

Communities ossify, especially when there isn't a good way to attract new people. (IIRC I started reading Waterthread after seeing a link on Slashdot) I would also say that Waterthread originally was centered around MMOs, but MMOs are no longer the exciting new frontier they once were.

[Ironwood]

Well, you are approaching 10,000.

[lamaros]

I like this place for the rough edges. If that is a barrier to some people then it is also appealing to others. The "stacks on" thing can be misplaced sometimes, but mostly it's not; it's just the more experienced and mature members of the forum poking those who step out of line so that there doesn't need to be draconian moderation.

I would be interested to see if forums generally are dying. I would be surprised if that was the case, but then I really dislike Facebook and don't have a clue what is going on over in that realm of the social Internet.

The fact people aren't coming here as much as before might be due to the origins of the site, the lack of any big Warhammer-like events raising awareness around other parts, and no frontpage stuff. Also schild not being here as much in recent times.

[Yoru]

Indeed. In ye olde days of yore, we attracted a fair amount of attention (and people) via our journalistic integrity and no-holds-barred exclusives, like the Vanguard thing. Since then, we've mostly attracted people by referral through F13-affiliated gaming groups.

Over the past two years, fewer MMO groups have formed through the site and fewer still have lasted very long. Take a look at the Gaming Graveyard, if you will.

[Margalis]

Say what you will of Lost but it spent way more time developing characters than any TV series could have done 10, let alone 20, years ago, and has far more sophisticated/realistic motivations.

I wonder if he would say the same now.

It's funny reading that old thread, I've spent a lot of time recently thinking about the difference in design between games now and games of the past, and I'm pretty sure I could point to many ways in which modern design sensibilities have changed for the worse. (Exhibit A: preponderence of kill rooms)

Quick, someone make StGabe come back so I can argue with him some more.  

Edit: Guys, you know I hate to self-aggrandize but check this out:

As others have pointed out, new technology can often distract. John Carpenter's Thing is awesome in part because the effects are all done with animatronics, models, etc. Make The Thing today and there is no chance it would be as good.

NAILED IT!

Edit2: Oh my god, reading that old thread I picked out that exact same line about Lost and even bolded the same words! Scary. Great minds think alike!

Edit3: Ha forgive me, it's 5 AM my time, I have that late night crazyness thing.

[lamaros]

Quick, someone make StGabe come back so I can argue with him some more.  

I think you just did.

[Ironwood]

I'm going to go with lol.

[Merusk]

Useless aside as this topic's gone offrails.. wtf is up with the Lost references in the last 24h.  Rerun of Locke's first Hawaii 5-0 appearance, Woot & now Margalis dredging up the old argument. Weird coincidences are weird.

[Margalis]

You are actually the victim of a 1987 plane crash and the references you are seeing to Lost is your brain starting to put together the pieces as you emerge from your coma.

Elements of Lost will increasingly permeate your existence, until finally you rewatch the pilot episode and recognize yourself sitting on the plane.

[Arthur_Parker]

The worst bit will be seeing the numbers 7, 21 & 51 everywhere.

[Ironwood]

I'd be ok with that if I get to do Penny.

[Minvaren]

Unless I somehow missed Sojfn, Ingmar, etc on previous boards.   The last 18 months has seen a dearth of actual posters, but I attribute that to web forums dying as Facebook & Twitter take over more than our particular brand of fire and brimstone.   It'd be like an old Usenet group bitching that nobody new reads their feeds.

As an old Usenet hand who wrangled a (originally EQ-related) web forum for years, this is pretty much it.  Most of the people who frequented that old site wandered off to Real Life, other cliques, and other forms of social media.   The vast majority of web forums in general that remain these days seem to be clique-oriented, targeted very narrow in scope (and thus attract no one), or attract a very heavy 16-22 crowd.

Despite being through a representative sample of the Lum diaspora sites over the years, I've never heard of this Chick guy, nor have frequented this specific forum - but his actions and antics are far from novel in the realm of moderating sites likes these.  Beware ye olde admin flameout.

[schild]

Three years ago I got a job that kept me from writing about games in any capacity. That job turned into a bigger job with even more restrictions. Now I have no restrictions but I have absolutely no desire to write about shit because the gaming industry is full of man-babies. Unmarketable swaths of idiots that provide simply no entertainment to me anymore. When I hear about a game company being successful now, I'm more surprised by that than if one of their executives decided to go on a cocaine binge during GDC (this example was made up).

Many bloggers and dramatic types never got bored of the gaming industry. This is either due to their lack of exposure to the gaming industry or being part of the problem. Normal is on the fringe.

I've toyed around with writing exclusively about super indie shit, but I stepped back from it because there isn't much of a story to "I made this, people liked it." Creative people doing good things is good for the industry. Creative people doing good things on their own is even better for the industry. Unfortunately it makes for super uninteresting conversation. I've no desire to talk about games as art. That conversation is annoying as any conversation can be. I've also no desire to interview these people. Interviews without a massive dose of insanity are just PR and fall under "doing this would be a waste of my time" when categorized in my head.

In other words, I won't be writing about games in the near future. Nor will I ask any of the mods/writers to do that either. There will never be another executive as dumb or frothing mad as Brad McQuaid, so you likely won't see any interviews either. The frontpage will languish as a relic to a time that once was - and I will continue to deal with PR in my inbox with the "Mark as Spam" button. Upon the time we no longer receive enough donations to keep the forums going, it's at that time we'll decide how to proceed with the website. I've no desire to shut it down though, since I care a great deal about the majority of you. We will keep our strict enforcement of rules that we make up on the fly.

tl;dr: Tom Chick is still a fucko who doesn't deserve a community. f13 in its current state is likely f13 in its future state. I like games, but the industry that makes them has a great deal of maturing to do.

Addendum: To address some points above - Lum can have all those posters. The vast majority of them strike me as awful people as they were able to tolerate Q23 for so long. I'm sure they'll mix in well with the people who were banned over here years ago. I wonder how oil interacts with internet down syndrome juice.

[Sky]

I could interview Iain for the front page. I would do it in a Bond villain character and only really talk about painting minis, saying "No, I expect you to PAINT, Mr. Compton."

Then I could interview Raph about alternate tunings.

We could have a whole new life as a website that interviews developers but never about games or the industry.

No, wait. I'm lazy. Never mind.

[Arthur_Parker]

I was thinking more of Haemish's Lineage 2 review, reposted after a find/replace of "Lineage 2" with "Lineage 3" and the character images updated with dinosaur heads.

But I was secretly hoping for a Tom Chick interview.

[schild]

Interviewing Tom Chick would be boring and not with my, or anyone's time. He has no insight to provide, isn't important to the gaming industry in any fashion, and offers nothing of value.

Basically, no. Interviewing one of the Austin 6th Street hobos would be more interesting.

[Arthur_Parker]

We still aren't doing green?