Pissed about an X-Com FPS? Firaxis hears ya...

[Strazos]

I personally prefer In the Zone, but Double Tap is indeed fantastic.

I looked at it, but you really need the mobile-type sniper for that to even possibly have a point I think, and then you're possibly using pistols as well.

I don't find that my snipers are flanking or firing upon uncovered enemies often enough for Zone to matter...whereas Double Tap is usually good for multiple kills a turn if I need the extra shots.

[eldaec]

In the zone makes crysallids and drones into free kills and is stronger vs berserkers and discs who don't take cover.

Double tap is probably superior vs sectopods.

They are both good. I prefer in the zone because it stops you getting swarmed.

[koro]

I personally prefer In the Zone, but Double Tap is indeed fantastic.

I looked at it, but you really need the mobile-type sniper for that to even possibly have a point I think, and then you're possibly using pistols as well.

I don't find that my snipers are flanking or firing upon uncovered enemies often enough for Zone to matter...whereas Double Tap is usually good for multiple kills a turn if I need the extra shots.

Ghost Armor stealthed Assault finds a group of enemies (mutons, chryssalids, floaters, whatever). They don't trigger their scramble and are all clustered together. Archangel equipped sniper floating at max height shoots all of them dead with Squad Sight + In the Zone. None get to move.

Double Tap is more controllable and consistent, but when you can set up ITZ kills, it's insane.

[Goumindong]

I looked at it, but you really need the mobile-type sniper for that to even possibly have a point I think, and then you're possibly using pistols as well.

I don't find that my snipers are flanking or firing upon uncovered enemies often enough for Zone to matter...whereas Double Tap is usually good for multiple kills a turn if I need the extra shots.

No. ITZ works best with squad sight snipers, you just have to work to set him up.

All Melee, cybernetic, and currently flying enemies cannot take cover. So floaters, Heavy Floaters, drones, cyberdisks, sectopods, berzerkers, chyssalids can't take cover. The rest you can generally remove their cover with grenades in order to set up long chains (if you need to set up a long chain) and zerks, heavy floaters, and cyberdisks are common enough that the bonus is worth it

[lamaros]

I always prefer double tap, as things that I find difficult to deal with aren't often able to be taken out easily in one turn, or take cover. Being able to unload 30-40 damage in one direction is something I sometimes need, but being able to take out a score of little annoyances isn't.

[eldaec]

To be honest I find it theoretical outside of plot missions and sometimes terror sites as I usually want to train a non-colonel rather than have a max level sniper hog all the kills.

[Jeff Kelly]

I'm about to finish my Classic Ironman run after several restarts and that will probably end my involvement with the game.

On the higher difficulty levels you really start to notice the tactical limitations of the game.

Classic Ironman is difficult yes. It's more a difficulty based on resource limitations (bad equipment, small base, inexperienced squad) and the randomness of the PRNG-based game design than based on a challenging AI. This starts to bother me a lot.

You can and will lose games purely due to randomness. I lost a game because I had 1 floating disc and 3 packs of three chryssalids in my second terror mission in may. By turn three 8 out of the 18 civillians were zombies, by the time I ran out of ammo it were 15 chryssalids and that's when I uncovered the disc. I didn't even manage to move my squad farther than the first cover after exiting the ship.

I lost a game because the first council mission I got was bomb disposal on the cemetery map which is quite a challenge with only rookies and assault rifles. (Got killed by the rain of thin men on overwatch after needing to rush the bomb disarming due to running out of turns)

If there is still one or more enemy left standing after you end your turn chances are very good that one of your squadmates will die on Classic difficulty and above. Probably more if it's a Muton elite or robotic enemy.

The maps don't give you enough of an tactical edge. They're mostly tube-shaped and not big enough which means that you can't move around enemies to flank them or move to execute a pincer movement, even if they were you'd still not be able to do it for fear of uncovering additional packs of aliens you then couldn't handle. Opting for greater distance doesn't work because then you either don't see them anymore or don't hit them (something that doesn't seem to hinder the aliens as much as you, though). There is also not enoug terrain or elevation you could use to set up situations that are tactically in favour of you.

There's too much focus on cover. This would be OK if the maps actually offered enough of it. Half cover is much more frequent than full cover though and there are even maps where you don't have any cover during your first or even second turn.

Being in half cover is basically the death sentence for a squad mate f your turn ends with aliens uncovered and even full cover offers only a 20% increase.

You can have a flawless tactical setup on a mission and still lose due to bad luck. Which is OK. What's not OK is that the game gives you no means - tactical or otherwise - to get out of bad situations that happened due to bad luck or to recover from them. Not during a mission and not even after the mission ends.

A lost mission before you have full satellite coverage and a few tech upgrades usually means game over because the game mechanics are too limited to let you compensate the effect of luck by better or more creative play.

No wonder the "best" tactic for non-time limited maps is the old MMOG tactic "pull a pack and then tear it down" since most mobs are stupid enough to run into your team of soldiers set to overwatch.

Losing a game due to my own mistakes is OK although I'd still argue that a single fuck-up should never end a game just make it more difficult. Losing a game due to chance or randomness just because the game design limits my tactical or strategic options to recover from that is something I don't like though.

The other side of the coin is that once you have the technological edge (titan armor, firestorms, plasma weapons) the game ceases to be difficult at all because the AI is not good enough to compensate for your technological edge.

I'd rather it be more like chess or a good board game where you can get out of tight spots if you play "better" or more creatively. At the moment though it seems to me that chance has too much of an effect on whether you win or lose a game of X-Com due to the way the game mechanics are designed.

[Khaldun]

I actually prefer the somewhat strong role of the RNG. The issue really is that the maps have mostly been carefully designed so that there is no absolutely optimal path through the map. If the maps had full cover available in non-dashing increments, players would relentlessly move up in those pathways and do nothing else. In order to force players to make difficult tactical choices, the maps don't offer simple chokepoints and move-ups.

[Tebonas]

I guess my latest Classic Ironman will be the last game until an expansion as well. I've managed to muddle through to the point where technology makes the game trivial enought to conteract the bad luck, but lost 3 backer countries to total wipes on the way. The first 15 soldiers (Most of them Colonels with a few Majors and Captains in the mix) had exactly ONE Psionic (the guaranteed one from the first batch of testees). Now I'm just playing to level up a backup Psionic because the first one is my Sniper who will never see the frontlines, then its off to the last mission.

Still, I got 95+ hours out of it, so I can't say its wasted money.

[eldaec]

I agree that a month 1 loss is catastrophic but after that one loss might mean losing a country, it doesn't lose you the game.

The strategy side is too solvable and the tactical game is more gamey than I'd like, but random buttfucking is part of the xcom experience.

If we're moaning, the maps are too small and the ui was clearly designed for consoletards, the soldier voices are all the same and difficulty drops rather than ramping up as you play through the story. Also the cut scene characters are utterly soulless except maybe the German lady. And the game really needs a one off base defence mission where you get more than 6 dudes.

I'm still playing though.

[Goumindong]

Only a few maps are "too small". Some are quite damned big.

difficulty drops rather than ramping up as you play through the story

Just staying true to the original.

That being said, it would be nice if you could do the opposite, but it doesn't work as player power ramps up considerably with technology. Because of this if you want to make the game challenging when you have titan armor you have to be prepared for a game which is impossible if you don't tech up fast enough.

As it stands you can take almost any enemies out with basic materials, so long as you're playing well enough, its not going to be easy, but you can do it (on my last classic ironman game i didn't upgrade my heavies from basic weapons until after the overseer). If the game was very hard when your heavies had plasma then its going to be impossible when they have LMG's

[koro]

The early stages where you're always outmatched and out-teched are probably the most fun. I really need to try Marathon mode so that those early levels last longer.

[HaemishM]

I've found that up until about month 3, a full wipe in Classic mode will probably end the game. I've made it to month 6 or 7 I think, have held off on attacking the base until I could equip all my guys with carapace/skeleton armor, lasers and plasmas. The only thing I've lagged on is interceptor tech, but I'm producing my first firestorm now. Missions have so far been a cakewalk for the last month or so - only lost 1 guy and 1 SHIV in that time.

[lamaros]

I will agree about the game being 'gamey', but classic is not going to RNG bugger you 99% of the time unless you get massive bugs or are making mistakes. Impossible is unfun and a grind, especially on ironman (but is doable), but classic is manageable.

I've been (trying) to play the multiplayer. There are quite a few bugs they need to fix and the region locking is an absolute disaster, but the multiplayer game is actually a lot of fun. And VASTLY different to the single player in terms of how you play. I recommend you try it out (sand me a steam msg if you'd like).

[Samprimary]

I have had now two impossible ironmans completely destroyed by two specific bugs

- the teleporting magic appear-at-will sectopod which is subsequently immune to area damage. HI GUYS IM HERE NOW TPK FOR ME

- magic apparating cyberdisk cluster

also had two agents lost because their critically wounded bodies teleported off-map and could not be revived

[Ingmar]

My suspicion on the magically appearing aliens is that they might just be patrols who wander in without showing their movement animation. Not 100% sure though obviously.

[lamaros]

Aliens 'patrol' via teleporting about the map under the 'fog of war'. There are some bugs with this happening and not properly recognising what is and isn't fog.

[koro]

The newest Beaglerush video has an instance of teleporting aliens in it; specifically the floaters early on outside the ship. That kind of teleporting is okay-ish, but not other times when they completely bug out and teleport in literally on top of your squad and then proceed to get their free move.

[lamaros]

Fix for the steam region locking (for non US players):

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?181606-FIX-for-Multiplayer-region-blockade-working-and-safe

[Ratman_tf]

The newest Beaglerush video has an instance of teleporting aliens in it; specifically the floaters early on outside the ship. That kind of teleporting is okay-ish, but not other times when they completely bug out and teleport in literally on top of your squad and then proceed to get their free move.

Yeah. I'm holding off on any Ironman games until they patch that up.

[Strazos]

So I was getting towards the end with my Normal-Ironman game...and now the save won't show up because "it's in a different language." What?

Maybe it'll fix itself once I get back to my house and VPN back to the US...

 

[Goumindong]

So I was getting towards the end with my Normal-Ironman game...and now the save won't show up because "it's in a different language." What?

Maybe it'll fix itself once I get back to my house and VPN back to the US...

 

Probably not. I had the same issue(ruined my near perfect classic-ironman run, i was literally about to win) and the save was entirely dead. Its a rare bug, but if you're saving when the game crashes the save file can become blank. IIRC because its over-writing the game in order to make the ironman save and so if the game dies in the middle of the overwriting you only have the wipe and not the re-write.

Go to the directory and open up your save in notepad. If its as I suspect the file will be blank.

[Megrim]

Ok, finally finished my C/I play through, after about nine restarts.

I'll probably have to play Impossible to get a really good feel for the mechanics, but it seems to the that there are a few issues which ought be addressed, if they ever choose to release an expansion.

Game difficulty power-curve needs to be adjusted. One of the things which made the originals tricky on higher difficulties was more rapid exposure to advanced alien tech. So you might have met psionics in month three or even two, and had to figure out how to deal with them.

In this version, it seems that the ramp-up is gated or scripted, which leads to poor gameplay beyond the first couple of months, especially if the player manages to outpace the 'prescribed' difficulty curve. The game became significantly easier with the first tier armour unlocks, and a joke with heavy armour and plasma weapons.

The Geoscape side of things is shallow, and needs improvement. There does seem to have been some half-hearted attempt to throw in spice with expendable interceptor upgrades, but while its understandable that it was bolted on back in the 90s, with the amount of experience and resources available today the Geoscape should not feel so barren.

Alien AI and variety need to be improved. Two types of Sectoid, two types of Floater, two types of Muton, yawn. The old terror units, the Cyberdisk, Cryssalid and Sectopod tended to be prevalent throughout the old version. Some later then others, sure, but at least you got to fight them. My experience so far has been that Sectopods are in the last mission, and, ugh... one other, just before that? Maybe? Most of the other 'fun' elite-level alien units (like Ethereals and Muton Elite) also enter so late into the game as to be irrelevant. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, the new grouped method of deployment really muxes up the threat levels of some units. Cryssalids in the old version were dangerous because they did a lot of damage, and moved very quickly, yes, but most of their threat came from the fact that you had to deal with them AND being shot at, at the same time. In the present however, the pull-a-mob gameplay really ablates any danger which they may pose. The same goes for Cyberdisks and their Drones.

Soldier perks need to be re-thought and re-balanced. I know, I know, "singleplayer, balance lol" et cetera, but there really needs to be some work done in this aspect. Some choices are blatantly better than others, some downright useless. More documentation on how game mechanics work would also help tremendously. I took me a while to realise that soldiers rezzed on the battlefield still take a permanent hit to their willpower. Genius mechanic, whoever though of that.

Lastly, having played through the game I stand by my original judgement - the maps are too small. Given the player's access to multiple sources of explosive weaponry and the packmob grouping of aliens, the only thing the player really has to worry about is how many weapon fragments they want to recover.

So, good game overall, and very enjoyable, but could have been a lot better.

[lamaros]

The alien 'AI' was the worst thing for me.

Multiplayer makes up for this. Sadly the number of multiplayer bugs makes the single player game look flawless.

[Samprimary]

DONE

IRONMAN

BOOM

k not touching game anymore

final thoughts:

- ASSAULT is the odd class out. Their preferable utility ends at classic difficulty; closing ranks on the enemy is what they are designed to do, and closing ranks on the enemy is actively too dangerous to commit to, lest you 'pop' two packs at once and get the entire team overrun and slaughtered. Their close-range specialty is nearly useless and most people report giving them an assault rifle as soon as they can, because otherwise they're just taking useless long range shots 90% of the time and missing every overwatch shot. Flush and Lightning Reflexes have their use in Impossible strats, but they are rarely ever useful enough to validate the use of a slot. Nearly every time another type of soldier is better, and they can't validate their group slot.

- SUPPORT is good stuff and one or two adequately shore up a team's survivability, but the major issue with them is how they are forced to pick between three medkit uses OR two smoke grenade uses. The three medkit uses are mandatory, and that sucks, because smoke grenades need to be more reliably utilized than they are. It would really enhance their team utility. Primarily, they exist for suppression and heals. Two supports on a team can usually provide enough aim reduction cover via constant suppression to really stack the aim disparity against opponents, which is, essentially, how to win the game.

- HEAVIES are incredibly useful, often mandatory once mechanicals come into play, and stack nicely. Rockets are an incomparable utility, and they will eventually have three a piece. HEAT is mandatory. Through all my attempts in ironman impossible, I moved to giving every single one of them holotargeting, since they are often forced to be too mobile to really utilize bullet storm, and because the stacking +10 aim is part of the whole aforementioned 'aim disparity against opponents' issue. Their firepower is really very inaccurate, but it doesn't matter when firing against an enemy benefits the entire rest of the team with a +10 against that enemy. Dual heavies are critical for when metal and elite comes into play; a sectopod is taken out in a single team by a combo shredder/regular rocket in a turn. If you have two or more elites bundled up, you rocket the shit out of them to guarantee a kill. The secondary benefit is the constant removal of cover by rockets, which turn 25% attack averages into 70+%

- SNIPERS win or lose you the game. They are absolutely vital. Losing anyone else is recoverable, but never lose your ace snipers. Always go straight squad sight and give them damn good ground, and once you know every map, the function of victory is simply knowing where to put your snipers so that the high ground + DGG + SCOPE + holotargeting snipers can drop fully entrenched enemies no matter where they stand. Your most important research goal IN THE GAME is plasma sniper rifles. Nothing else is as critical a turnaround point.

- PSI comes into play too late to matter that much, especially considering that any soldier you start the game with is going to have shit for Will

- YOU NEVER DO THE SPECIAL MISSIONS UNTIL YOU HAVE TITAN ARMOR AND PLASMA

- You get up to carapace armor as fast as you can, then titan.

- You never research lasers. You stun an enemy with a light plasma rifle as soon as you can, and then use them with your fodder while you immediately advance research up to the specialty plasma weapons. Their +10 aim is vitally important for low-aim newbies and your supports/assaults. You then go straight to

- You spend every last cent you can get on putting satellites up in the air, of course. You usually are selling corpses as much as you can risk in order to accomplish this. It is for this reason that the best starting location is usually europe, often with a restart if you lose any asian member nation. The americas are utterly disposable.

- Combat is nearly entirely defined by inching forward carefully, triggering a pack, running back, and overwatching your face off (hint: rapidly mash tab-y-tab-y-tab-y to overwatch the entire team in a second), then attritioning the enemies down by maximizing aim disparity. You enhance yours as much as you can, through SCOPES, high ground, holotargeting, cover removal and flushing. You decrease theirs as much as you can, with heavy smoke, using full cover always, and using disabling shot. If you are within grenade range of anything you are doing it wrong. Always be prepared to retreat and back up; the enemy AI will give you a whole new round of extremely poor placement (on their part) as they chase you.

[Ingmar]

Hm, I would be sort of surprised if the research savings from keeping Europe around outpace the savings from instant autopsies & interrogations.

[Threash]

Well, i beat the game on normal without ironman and while i very much enjoyed the experience i feel no desire to try the higher difficulties or do it again.  And i loved my assault.

[Goumindong]

- You get up to carapace armor as fast as you can, then titan.

Skip carapace and go right to grapple, skip titan, grapple is better, then ghost armor.

- You spend every last cent you can get on putting satellites up in the air, of course. You usually are selling corpses as much as you can risk in order to accomplish this. It is for this reason that the best starting location is usually europe, often with a restart if you lose any asian member nation. The americas are utterly disposable.

Starting Asia will save you much much more money than starting Europe will especially since early OTS upgrades are so important. However the easiest start is the U.S. Starting in the U.S. gives you more raw starting money advantage than you will save by starting in Europe over the first three months combined not including the extra funds from cheaper aircraft procurement and housing, which you will spend more on in the crucial early months than workshops and which are necessary to continue to invest in as you launch satellites in continents which are not your starting continent.

Europe is one of, if not the hardest start.

[Tannhauser]

I think Sam is really spot on on a lot of things but I prefer:

1.  Don't base in Europe.  Asia is where it's at. 
2.  Assault with crit training have saved me from some really bad situations.  Can almost 1-shot a sectopod.  Etherials die fast.
3.  Rockets reduce your reward, I prefer lots of overwatch and focused fire.  I won't use a rocket unless absolutely necessary, same with grenades.  Shredder is very very sweet though!

Only beat the game on Normal so take that into consideration.

[koro]

If there is an opportunity to kill an alien with a grenade when all my other soldiers' actions are used up, I am damn sure not going to take even a slightly risky gun shot; I'm going to throw the stupid grenade. A couple weapon fragments is not worth possibly losing a soldier over, ever.

After my third very preventable soldier death from taking a shot instead of throwing a grenade to end my turn, I stopped doing that.

[lamaros]

Europe is ass. North America is far far easier.

Assaults are great.

[Ingmar]

Europe is pretty much the worst possible starting location, yes.

[Samprimary]

Reminder: I'm talking about how I beat this game on Impossible.

Europe as a starting location is purely an all or nothing Impossible strat. Something like 9 out of 10 of my impossible ironman runs were dud starts and were doomed from the start, and it all comes down to immediate sat coverage to hold back the doom counter. I would play in and try to have a sat foothold which included all of asia, and the first workshop being half-cost gets you your first sat uplink MUCH faster, which ultimately makes or breaks the game.

Yet if you lose a single asian country, you have to restart, because while the sat capacity upgrade is a vital ASAP, you are still boned if you lose out on half-price OTS/foundry for midgame.

Starting Asia will save you much much more money than starting Europe will especially since early OTS upgrades are so important.

There ARE no early OTS upgrades in impossible. You have no money to spare for building the OTS. Everything is going to sat coverage. Immediate sat coverage is vital.

[lamaros]

I finished II. I never got Asia.

The starting money and upkeep and fighter cost reductions from NA are way way better than any other location.

Also, Europe has more high value locations, while the US is the clear best for NA. This makes sat deployment options more varied.

Try it again but go NA start with Africa and then SA coverage. You'll have so much more money its not funny.

[Samprimary]

I can actually see that being a valid platform for launching. The EU start is literally only to get workshop bonuses (and thus, more sat coverage in month 1/3) ratched up as fast as possible, because it means the difference between losing 3 countries early versus losing 7.

I suppose you could math out US as starter + reduced overhead on fighters being well above the

.

fucks sakes, you could. WELL I'LL BE DAMNED

my new strat for impossible, were i to ironman it again, would be US base, restart if you lose any asia country.