Dungeons and Dragons Online

[jpark]

I did visit the "DDO" web site.  They are supposed to come out the end of 2005?

A few things caught my eye:  low server populations; max level 20; no crafting upon release; no experience points for killing, only for quest completion; wall climbing; recognition of the ineffectiveness of rogues to date; classic DnD class systems including multiclass.

At this point graphics are negative screen (although their race line-up sounds appealing).  They look fine.  I am interested in game play dynamics - and my interest has been caught.

[HaemishM]

They have some interesting ideas, I'll give them that. Pulling it off is something I'm highly skeptical of, for a lot of reasons. AC2 is the biggest reason (same dev house, though not necessarily same dev team). The fact that they are working two HUGE licenses (DDO and Middle-Earth Online) at the same time makes me think resources will be thin on both teams. But I'm at least interested enough to not write the whole thing off wholesale.

[WayAbvPar]

My inner geek wants this to be cool- if it could come close to recreating the late night PnP gaming sessions of my misspent youth, I would pay $50 a month for it. Unfortunately, there is just no way a MMOG can replace a living, breathing, thinking on the fly, creative, ruthless DM.

[Sky]

I hope they change spell-casting, I've always disliked the way AD&D handled the whole memorization thing.

Really interested in what they cook up for rogues.

[Samwise]

Rogues are pretty damn badass in 3E if you play them right.  Having every attack you make do an extra +10d6 damage doesn't suck.

3E also added the Sorcerer class, for those that like arcane spells but don't like memorizing them.  From the DDO site it looks like they're going to have both wizards and sorcerers, like NWN did.  My current theory as to how they handle spell slots is that they repopulate in campsites and inns, or something along those lines.  That'd make it so you have to come out of the dungeon every once in a while (and manage your spells wisely while in there), but you wouldn't have to wait 24 hours to get your spells back.

[schmoo]

Be interesting to see what they have to change to make it work online.  I love the idea of getting experience for quest completion rather than foozle whacking.  It's probably not going to work in an online game, though.

[Samwise]

WoW already does that, from what I understand.  Or are you being ironic?   

[schild]

Every time I played, the well-rested state = foozle-whacking extravaganza. He's saying DDO gives experience exclusively for finishing quests. Killing mobs is a waste of time.

[jpark]

Unfortunately, there is just no way a MMOG can replace a living, breathing, thinking on the fly, creative, ruthless DM.

The missing spirit of ALL MMORPGs has just been stated :)

If my bud could get his head out the PC - I would be doing pen and paper all over again.  We did for awhile a few years ago - and used the power of  Mac in the creation of images / dungeons etc to support each gaming session.

[Samwise]

Hm.  The WoW fanbois I know claim that foozle-whacking is a waste of time in WoW also, and that quests are both the most fun and most optimal way to level, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were misrepresenting things a bit.

In any case, precedent has been set for giving XP for completing quests in a MMO.  Eliminating the XP from the foozle doesn't seem like that big of an extra step, though it will surely completely confound EQ refugees.  "OMG I WACKD 100000 FOOZLS AND NO DING!  THIS SUX"

[jpark]

I hope they change spell-casting, I've always disliked the way AD&D handled the whole memorization thing.

Really interested in what they cook up for rogues.

I gather at this point you will still need to memorize spells.

[shiznitz]

In reality, most of the quests WILL involve killing some foozles to complete the quest, even if the quest itself is not the "kill orcs until you find a toe" variety.  Quests that don't involve some amount of combat or lots of travel are going to be exploited mercilessly.

[schmoo]

CoH also gives you xp for completing missions.  Just not very much. :)

As for memorizing spells:

"6. Magic
Will I have to memorize my spells? As per the D&D rules, wizards and clerics need to memorize spells before they can be cast, and need to rest in order to replenish them. Sorcerers and bards cast their spells spontaneously, but still need to rest periodically in order to refresh their spell slots."

[SirBruce]

I'm very interested in DDO (moreso than MEO) right now.  However, my main issue is whether or not solo play is viable.  If I can adventure solo or hire AI NPCs (ala Guild Wars) to go with me on my adventures, I'm cool with that.

Bruce

[jpark]

I'm very interested in DDO (moreso than MEO) right now.  However, my main issue is whether or not solo play is viable.  If I can adventure solo or hire AI NPCs (ala Guild Wars) to go with me on my adventures, I'm cool with that.

Bruce

My understanding is that it is group focused - they were rather upfront about the absence of solo play.  Hiring NPCs?  Dunno.

[HaemishM]

In any case, precedent has been set for giving XP for completing quests in a MMO.  Eliminating the XP from the foozle doesn't seem like that big of an extra step...

Turbine's last game, Asheron's Call 2, had the Vault Dungeons. At least in beta/release, you got no experience for killing the foozles in the dungeon, only for completing it. At least I think that's right. That may have been a stated design goal that they didn't implement or took out.

[SirBruce]

My understanding is that it is group focused - they were rather upfront about the absence of solo play.  Hiring NPCs?  Dunno.

Yes, I read the FAQ.  But FAQs have been frequently known to be wrong.

Bruce

[SirBruce]

In any case, precedent has been set for giving XP for completing quests in a MMO.  Eliminating the XP from the foozle doesn't seem like that big of an extra step...

Turbine's last game, Asheron's Call 2, had the Vault Dungeons. At least in beta/release, you got no experience for killing the foozles in the dungeon, only for completing it. At least I think that's right. That may have been a stated design goal that they didn't implement or took out.

AC2 also had the first instancing, the first (I think) skill trees, quest-based advancement, distinct-looking areas, etc,. etc.

Really, that great game called WoW everyone has been enjoying?  I played it already.  It was called AC2.  Unfortunately, nobody else cared about the game, and the little things (lack of NPCs, enterable buildings, and the general sense of "world") were noticeably absent.  But the core gameplay elements?  All there.

Bruce

[Rasix]

The skill trees thing doesn't match up between the 2 games, comparing the two is idiotic.  AC2 didn't instance either.  All of the dungeons were enterable by anyone, including the vaults.   We had day long fights over control of some of the higher level dungeons for quest completion.   

The quest based advancement was a joke and easily exploited (I could do 30-42 in one quest where I didn't even have to be on the continent).  Plus there were HUGE gaps where all you could do is grind.  And a grind it was.  Anything you could easily kill gave painfully little exp so most people were forced to get mobs stuck on pixels and snipe them from a distance to get an resemblence of a sane level progression.

Yah, you played a version of WoW: a premature, aborted fetus where nothing worked right and strides toward progress resulted in an unfun, sucky, bore.  Not to mention wonderful things like improved rubber band lag, a chat system that NEVER once worked throughout the entire day, and dev team that couldn't bilge the water fast enough to keep the ship from sinking.  It was a soulless, buggy, pit of MMORPG hell that I'm glad did fuckall for business.

[ahoythematey]

Bruce, I can sympathise with your feelings on wanting MMO's that allow viable soloing, but when you consider that D&D is all about getting together with other people to have some fun dungeon romps, I'm pretty sure I won't give a fuck if the game bearing the franchise name is not solo-friendly.

[SirBruce]

The skill trees thing doesn't match up between the 2 games, comparing the two is idiotic.

I didn't say they matched up.  But nevertheless, they are both skill trees.

AC2 didn't instance either.  All of the dungeons were enterable by anyone, including the vaults.   We had day long fights over control of some of the higher level dungeons for quest completion.

Ahh, your MMOG knowledge-fu has failed you.  The Vaults were indeed instanced in beta, but it was removed without much explanation before release.  It was part of the original design.

Plus there were HUGE gaps where all you could do is grind.

That's true, but that's a matter of content, not of design.

You're focused on the whole product and I'm talking about design features.  You can't see the trees for the forest.

Bruce

[SirBruce]

Bruce, I can sympathise with your feelings on wanting MMO's that allow viable soloing, but when you consider that D&D is all about getting together with other people to have some fun dungeon romps, I'm pretty sure I won't give a fuck if the game bearing the franchise name is not solo-friendly.

Too bad the people who published several solo adventures for AD&D disagree with your characterization of their product.

Bruce

[El Gallo]

Rasix, that was beautiful.

AC2 also had the first instancing

Anarchy Online.

distinct-looking areas

Everquest.

skill trees

Diablo 2, though the mechanic is older.

You're focused on the whole product and I'm talking about design features.

By this metric, Wish is the father of all games.  It was easily as close to WoW as AC2 was.  Which is to say, they both had someone who fantasized about making a worthwhile game, and not much else.

AC2 is the only game I have ever played where I felt actual, heart-wrenching pity for the developers when I played it.

[SirBruce]

Rasix, that was beautiful.

AC2 also had the first instancing

Anarchy Online.

Those aren't instances.  Those are each randomly-created areas.  The thing about instances is that they are "copies" of an existing place.

distinct-looking areas

Everquest.

Sure, and all the MMOGs before EQ, too.  It all depends on how you define "distinct", I suppose.  The point is, a lot of people, whether you agree with them or not, feel WoW's different zones are truly "distinct" in look and feel.  I'm just pointing out that AC2 had that same design/feeling long before.

skill trees

Diablo 2, though the mechanic is older.

Not a MMOG.

You're focused on the whole product and I'm talking about design features.

By this metric, Wish is the father of all games.  It was easily as close to WoW as AC2 was.  Which is to say, they both had someone who fantasized about making a worthwhile game, and not much else.

You're not making any sense.

Can we go back to talking about DDO now?  Kthx.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

Anarchy Online did have instancing. It's just very boring instancing.

[Signe]

Someone who told me they were in a wee DDO beta pm'd me this on another board:

all i can say without breaking any NDA is that yes..i have played D&D online, along with a SMALL group of other people....

Atari invited us.

I have also seen what they have planned..their outline for the game

what they plan to include and NOT include...


you will notice that the word NOT is in capital letters....

thats all i can say.

have a good one

He pm'd me this after he posted something like this:   "I've seen DDO and thank God WoW is out", and I questioned his statement.   I guess he's telling me without actually telling me that DDO sucks so far.  Who knows?  I don't.   This is a very tiny grain of salt.  Another person I know who said they had something to do with the beta won't tell me anything at all.   I don't mind... I'm sure I'll see it for myself soon enough. 

I only posted this to see if I could make Bruce cry.   

[schild]

Whatever DDO and MEO information I can make public will arrive hopefully in the next week or so.

[Mesozoic]

Rasix, that was beautiful.

AC2 also had the first instancing

Anarchy Online.

Those aren't instances.  Those are each randomly-created areas.  The thing about instances is that they are "copies" of an existing place.

Says who?  Two AO characters walk through the same door, each ends up in a different, personalized zone with the necessary  mobs and objects for their mission, and its not instancing?  I think you're carefully re-defining an otherwise well-understood phrase.

[SirBruce]

No, I think you're focusing too much on the literal translation of the word "instance" and in doing so missing the true concept behind an otherwise well-understood phrase.

Well AO missions did create a "personal space", if you will, when MMOG developers started talking about "instancing" to solve problems, they mean creating multiple instantiations of the same space, to prevent the problems associated with everyone wanting to be in that same space to get the same thing.  In AOs case, there is only one instantiation; it just happens to also be only accessible by one person or group.

Bruce

[Ardent]

So, when my D&D group gets together every other Sunday at my place, is that considered an instance?

Anyway, D&D means different things to different people. For me, it means creativity and imagination, and it's somewhat of a personal experience because you are sharing a consistent story with four people, rather than four hundred thousand. I am curious what attempt will be made to bring that same depth of experience to an MMO, if it's even possible.

Also, I suppose if Jeremy Irons needs another Ferrari, he could lend his voice for some NPC dialogue.

[Samwise]

Didn't they file some sort of lawsuit to prevent anyone associated with the D&D movie from ever touching anything under the D&D license ever again?

And if they didn't, shouldn't they have?

[AOFanboi]

Those aren't instances.  Those are each randomly-created areas.  The thing about instances is that they are "copies" of an existing place.

He didn't write "Anarchy Online missions". AO's backyards are an example of instancing. The difference is that the backyards introduced with Shadowlands and Alien Invasion exit at the same location in the "main" world, while the ones from launch had separate exit and entry "doors".

[Llava]

If instances are supposed to be copies of one another, then CoH missions are not instancing.  The layout of the mission is often different for different players.  As we have all referred to CoH's missions as being instanced, I suggest that we close the book on this semantics debate and move on.

[Megrim]

Stop derailing the thread with Bruce, dammit! Talk about D&D-O plz!

 - meg

[SirBruce]

If instances are supposed to be copies of one another, then CoH missions are not instancing.  The layout of the mission is often different for different players.

Are they?  I always thought they were the same.  If you're right, then you're correct; those aren't real instances.

  As we have all referred to CoH's missions as being instanced, I suggest that we close the book on this semantics debate and move on.

Yep.  Pretty clear people have been using the term incorrectly in that case; perhaps they were simply ignorant that the same mission generated different maps, though.  (I've seen different mob layouts and such, but not different maps.)

Bruce