Dungeons and Dragons Online

[Mesozoic]

Thank God Bruce is willing to be the arbitrator of game-mechanic definitions.  The rest of use will just have to wallow in our ignorance.

Back on-topic, the only thing that would pull me towards DDO would be the nostalgia. But to that end, I would want a server with a 1st-Ed ruleset.  From what I gather about the 3 and 3.5 rules, that would be a little like asking EQ to have a server with the AC ruleset.  i.e., not gonna happen.

[jpark]

Okay, back to DDO :)

Creating Community:  Smaller server population.  I ilke the idea but wonder about implementation.  Community is sometimes eroded by the prolific use of alts and a rapid leveling curve ("time to create a new char..").  Realistically how small can the server population become?  Would this negatively impact the economy?  And at this point we have no idea of grouping restrictions - but if they are anywhere close to EQ, it can make getting a group together a problem.  In EQ using the zone wide LFG tool - it can be hard to find folks to put together a team.  If your server population is smaller...hopefully, like CoH, there will be a way for the party to accept wide level differences.

Real Time Combat?  This is supposed to be fast - perhaps requiring more activity than what is used in WoW.  Of course being busy does not mean you are "engaged mentally" (heh - just turn auto attack off and hit the button every round).  At this juncture, they seem to suggest that there will be clear "feats" you can use in combat in response to the tactics of your opponent.  

Character Creation Choice.  This does not exist in EQ and superficially exists in EQ2 and WoW.  Shadowbane and CoH are currently the best examples of accepting trade-offs on what your character can and cannot do.  The decision to be multiclass is the first step.  Apparently as you advance you choose "feats".  I like that - but EQ2 has interesting choices too - but when you play the game you find their implementation makes them utterly trivial and its really just your class that differentiates you - that's it.

Balancing Pure and Multiclasses.  Deciding to be a Fighter/Thief vs. a Fighter or Thief (or a Fighter/thief/mage etc.) is a neat option.  
Somehow this has to be balanced - in PnP DnD this was balanced by assiging dungeons to your mulitclass character based on hit total experience points to date - not level.  A level 10 Cleric may be equivalent to a level 7 Fighter/Cleric and so on.  I wonder how they will balance this.

[Ironwood]

It's D & D.  Why the hell does it have to be balanced ?

[shiznitz]

jpark, that last comment suggests you are not familiar with the new 3E rules. A level 10 Cleric is quite well balanced with a 7 Fighter/3 Cleric character, actually. Both characters have achieved the same amount of exp and are considered level 10. If the multi-class character took the 3 cleric levels last, those 3 cleric levels took just as much exp to earn as if the character chose to stay a fighter.

That might have not been too clear, but I tried to explain something in one sentence what Wizards needed a whole chapter for.

[HaemishM]

If instances are supposed to be copies of one another, then CoH missions are not instancing.  The layout of the mission is often different for different players.

Are they?  I always thought they were the same.  If you're right, then you're correct; those aren't real instances.

Just like AO's missions, the layout of the instance is randomly generated when the mission is created, as are mob spawns and the location in the world of the instance entrance. You are splitting infinitesimally small hairs. Both AO and CoH's missions are one type of instance. CoH's city zones and EQ's bigger world zones (where multiple copies of the same exact zone exist) are ALSO instances.

[Sky]

Man....just thinking about playing my old mage/thief character. Man, I gotta go play some BG2.

I don't how the heck they'll balance multiclass, it'll have to be a lower level cap than pure classes, the traditional barrier of the extended multiclass timesink vs pure class progression is not really an object to today's catass, though I think it's still an obstacle to the rest of us. Too bad mmogs need to be designed to deal with both rational humans and those with OCD, eh.

Smaller community: love it. I like the tightness of beta servers, where you get to know a decent percentage of players. But my favorite game/server/ruleset overall was probably Siege Perilous of UO. Great tight community, where things like player justice and accountability (1 character per account, too) were a real possibility, rather than a pipe dream. Capped advancement, too, definitely not a server to race to the end, and yet it was still all about the elder games. Just a nice mix. And open pvp, big time (I played a character with no combat skills just for fun, yet was rarely ganked nor killed).

But good point about the modern proclivity for forcing grouping, that's when small communities can be a boon (tighter community, know more 'good' players) or a bane (less people to group with).

Maybe the work CoH is doing on scaling instances to the group makeup will pay off for the industry, so any mix of players (solo, duo, casual group, uber group, raid, etc) can enter an instance and have it be a decent adventure for them, and be balanced enough so you can provide good drops to all players, instead of just a segment of your paying userbase, but not have it be unbalanced (since it's scaled to be a challenge...if you take it further and use a difficulty slider (again, ala CoH, Cryptic is SO Best New Studio imo), then rewards are also tied to that slider.

It's really about making fun and rewarding options for all players, not just the most 'dedicated'. Imo. Anyway, I've rambled now, sorry. At least I didn't tell you what 'instance' means. But if I did, I'd say it's related to a programming term for an object's creation. I'd wager a programmer first coined it because they are dynamically created (or instanced) spaces. Not copies. Dynamic areas, created (instanced) on the fly.

[SirBruce]

If instances are supposed to be copies of one another, then CoH missions are not instancing.  The layout of the mission is often different for different players.

Are they?  I always thought they were the same.  If you're right, then you're correct; those aren't real instances.

Just like AO's missions, the layout of the instance is randomly generated when the mission is created, as are mob spawns and the location in the world of the instance entrance.

Again, having played the game, with multiple characters, the layout always looked the same to me.  Perhaps the maps are random in some instances and not others.

You are splitting infinitesimally small hairs. Both AO and CoH's missions are one type of instance.

Not really, *if* they are truly just randomly generated, and not merely multiple instantiations of otherwise identical maps.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

Arguing with you is ultimately fruitless, because you will believe what you want to believe. Talk to your "industry contacts" and ask them if both AO missions and COH missions, as well as city zones in COH are called "instances." Then come back when they tell you that you are, indeed, wrong.

[Furiously]

And Bruce - actually AO does both. You might want to look up the dungeon and not mission instances in AO...You can get your own private dungeon or you can go into public dungeon, but you might end up in a different one from your friends unless you are grouped, even then if the pop cap is reached you might end up somewhere else.

I'll say one thing about AC2... It did have the coolest cliff diving of any MMO...

[jpark]

jpark, that last comment suggests you are not familiar with the new 3E rules. A level 10 Cleric is quite well balanced with a 7 Fighter/3 Cleric character, actually. Both characters have achieved the same amount of exp and are considered level 10. If the multi-class character took the 3 cleric levels last, those 3 cleric levels took just as much exp to earn as if the character chose to stay a fighter.

That might have not been too clear, but I tried to explain something in one sentence what Wizards needed a whole chapter for.

You're right I am not familiar - thanks for the clarification.

[MrHat]

But can I be a monk?

[jpark]

But can I be a monk?

Eventually - that class is not planned for release.

[Signe]

Why do you want to be a monk?  You're already a pirate and they're MUCH cooler than monks or ninjas!

I don't believe in nameless 'industry contacts' or 'secret sources'... it's just an excuse to say shit and not have to prove it.  Sometimes it even lets you get away with murder.

[SirBruce]

And Bruce - actually AO does both. You might want to look up the dungeon and not mission instances in AO...

Well, I was referring to release features -- I'm sure many MMOGs have added instancing since their launch.

Bruce

[MrHat]

Haha Signe.

My monk would look exactly like that!

[SirBruce]

I don't believe in nameless 'industry contacts' or 'secret sources'... it's just an excuse to say shit and not have to prove it.  Sometimes it even lets you get away with murder.

What about Deep Throat?

Bruce

[Shockeye]

What about Deep Throat?

You compare your work to the Watergate scandal? God complex much?

[SirBruce]

What about Deep Throat?

You compare your work to the Watergate scandal? God complex much?

Who the hell is talking about my work?  You're the first person to bring it up.

Bruce

[Alkiera]

Some info I've gleaned off the boards for DDO...

Max level is 20.  For those who don't know 3.5e yet, this means 20 levels total... you can be a 20 wizard, or a 10 fighter/10 rogue, or a 15 cleric / 5 fighter, or a 2 Paladin / 18 Sorcerer.

Multi-classing is fairly well balanced against those who focus on one class.  Especially if you just want to pick up a few levels of a caster, if you're a 5 fighter / 3 wizard, you're gonna have a hard time hitting lvl 8 baddies with your wizard spells, and without the base attack bonuses from 3 levels of fighter, you may have a harder time hitting lvl 8 baddies than a level 8 fighter would.  On the other hand, non-combat spells may be useful, stuff like continual light, or comprehend languages, or knock.  Again, it's a tradeoff...  but depending on how often you group and with whom, it could be useful for your group to have access to certain utility spells.

If you start at as a spellcaster, multiclassing is less helpfull... Every level you spend as something other than your casting class causes you to lose out on high-level functionality.  You don't get 9th circle spells until 17 or 18...  if you spend 4 levels as something else, you'll never be able to cast them, because of the 20 level cap.

But can I be a monk?

The available core classes will be barbarian, bard, cleric, fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, and wizard.

No...  probably because they realized, like I did, that 3E monks are insanely overpowered.  By the low teen's in level, a well set up monk is not only very hard to hit due to high AC, and does pretty decent damage(1d12 with bare hands, with 4 attacks/round if they use Flurry of Blows), they evade traps like a rogue(Improved Evasion), are immune to most poisons and diseases, can move twice as fast as anyone else, and have Improved Knockdown, which gives you a pretty decent chance to knock down giants... and have very high (class level +10) innate spell resistance.

And those are just the feats you get as part of your class.  You still get normal feat selections like everyone else.

I've heard there were some changes for 3.5e...  but I haven't yet absorbed that sourcebook, as I don't own it yet, nor have I gotten a chance to really sit down and read it.

Alkiera

[stray]

[insert another headexplode.gif here]

[Shockeye]

What about Deep Throat?

You compare your work to the Watergate scandal? God complex much?

Who the hell is talking about my work?  You're the first person to bring it up.

By "work" I refer to your nameless industry sources that are being thrown around in this thread.

No game industry source will ever help to make the kind of impact on society that the Watergate scandal did. To compare your secret sources with Deep Throat is to make yourself, your contacts, and the industry more important that it is. Stop it.

[SirBruce]

Seems to me like Paladin or maybe dual-wielding Ranger is the way to go, then.

Bruce

[blindy]

Just like AO's missions, the layout of the instance is randomly generated when the mission is created, as are mob spawns and the location in the world of the instance entrance. You are splitting infinitesimally small hairs. Both AO and CoH's missions are one type of instance. CoH's city zones and EQ's bigger world zones (where multiple copies of the same exact zone exist) are ALSO instances.

It's a minor point, but CoH's instances are not truely random.  When you get a mission, that mission has a map type that's associated with it, like cave, or burned-out office building.  For each map type there's a certain number of hand-crafted maps.  What is randomly generated is which of these maps you get.  This (along with where the mission is, which may be truely random within certain parameters, I'm not sure) is assigned to you when you accept the mission.  So, if you start a mission, leave halfway through, and then restart it, the placement of the mob spawns and blinkies will have changed, but the map will still be the same.  But the next person to accept the mission will most likely have a different map.

I remember on release it seemed like there was only about 4-5 cave maps, and I kept getting the same ones over and over (which may be why Bruce thinks they're all the same, which was never the case), but I think they've increased the number of maps since then.

I agree that these mission maps are "instances".  I personally don't like the use of the term "instance" for CoH city zones (or EQ2's apparently, though I've never played that), because an instance to me is a private zone I can share with other people who have some connection to me (party, raid, guild, whatever), and that's obviously not how the city zones work.  If WoW had claimed to have "instanced dungeons" but it turned out that rather than their current system, you do have to share the dungeons with other random players, but a new version would spawn if the dungeon got too crowded, I think most people would consider that misleading.  So, I perfer the term "cloned" when talking about things like CoH's city zones, but it doesn't seem to be catching on.  :-(

[SirBruce]

What about Deep Throat?

You compare your work to the Watergate scandal? God complex much?

Who the hell is talking about my work?  You're the first person to bring it up.

By "work" I refer to your nameless industry sources that are being thrown around in this thread.

HaemishM brought the term up in reference to people I know in the industry; you know, folks like Raph and Gordon and Jessica.  Not "secret sources" or the like.

No game industry source will ever help to make the kind of impact on society that the Watergate scandal did. To compare your secret sources with Deep Throat is to make yourself, your contacts, and the industry more important that it is. Stop it.

The only one comparing them is YOU.  Here, have a clue.  Take two; they're small.

I was asking Signe about Deep Throat because she seemed to be discounting all "secret sources" as lacking credibility.

Bruce

[SirBruce]

I remember on release it seemed like there was only about 4-5 cave maps, and I kept getting the same ones over and over (which may be why Bruce thinks they're all the same, which was never the case), but I think they've increased the number of maps since then.

Actually, I know that much.  The question is really whether or not the same mission calls Cave_Map_01 every time, even though other missions give you other cave maps.  I think it does, or at least, I believe some missions do; but it's possible most do not or don't any longer.  But in any case, it's not really important; I don't consider that to be true instancing.

Bruce

[jpark]

Seems to me like Paladin or maybe dual-wielding Ranger is the way to go, then.

Bruce

Ranger is a hard call depending upon how the whole campaign works.  e.g. is tracking relevant?  In EQ it was critical for quests and farming.

Paladin is not a bad idea - hybrid class - without multiclassing.  

Looking at Alkeria's post above, if you're going to multiclass, considering the maximal level, it might be best to do it with "support classes".  e.g. a Cleric / Druid (10/10) is better than a Fighter/Mage (10/10), since the latter is confronted with opposed tests in attacking the enemy directly, whereas the formal has no opposed tests in attempting to buff / heal team mates.

[Sky]

For those who may have missed my post above - instancing is named because of the way it acts, it has nothing to do with the content. If an object is created in an object-oriented language, it can be said that it is created, or instanced. Create = instance in that terminology. So when a zone is dynamically created, it is instanced.

Whether it be random, semi-random, or a static copy, for personal or public usage. When it's created (instanced) on the fly, it's an instance. So AO missions, WoW dungeons, and Atlas Park 3 are all instances, despite being different in the way they handle content or access.

I'll just copy-n-paste this in after another ten posts, I'm guessing...

[blindy]

The question is really whether or not the same mission calls Cave_Map_01 every time, even though other missions give you other cave maps. 

Not as far as I know.  I played 2 characters up to around the mid-30s during the same time period, and one of those characters I always duo'd with a friend, so I kept going through the same missions three times in fairly short order.  We definitely got different maps for the same mission most of the time.  It's possible there are/were a few missions that always had the same map, but I don't remember anything like that (other than obvious exceptions like the respec trial, which was added quite a bit later).

Anyways, to be kind of on topic, will DDO include prestigue classes?

[jpark]

Anyways, to be kind of on topic, will DDO include prestigue classes?

Yes according to their site.  hehe now what is a prestige class?

[Alkiera]

Also, directly offensive classes stack fairly well.  15 fighter/ 5 paladin is fine, the base attack bonuses stack, and the abilities are helpful.  Prestige classes tend to work that way, in that they tend to be pretty useful, broadening your capabilities without sacrificing too much in hitpoints, base attack bonus, or armor use.  They are balanced by having entrance requirements, so not just anyone can take them.

The big advantage to liscensing a system like D20...  is that most of the system balance, class balance, equipment balance, spell balance, etc work has already been done.  Sure, you need to be careful when translating to your game to not unbalance things, but that s an easier task, I think, than coming up with a completely new system, with new classes, spells, equipment, and ways of interacting.  It's already had the hundreds of thousands of man-hours of testing it takes to get something reasonably close to balanced.  It's almost a shame as few system developers are as open with their system as d20 is...  I'd vastly prefer a game based off HERO/Champions(tho CoH certainly sorta seems to be, at the system level), or maybe even Storyteller(White Wolf's '5 dots in everything!' system) to d20, especially the d20 magic system.

Tho I generally play mages in MMOs, I prolly would not play one in DDO...  The magic system is just icky.  I'd at least need to hear more about how spells are regained, and maybe what kind of day/night timer they plan on using, if it matters.  It's been a tough thing to balance in computer versions of the d20 rules.

Alkiera

[Strazos]

Prestige classes are special variants of a base class, for instance, take Paladin. The 3 prestige classes of Paladin (that I know) are Inquisitor, Undead Slayer, and Cavalier. Each Prestige class usually works quite differently, and they are a nice variation upon the base class.

[blindy]

Prestige classes are special variants of a base class, for instance, take Paladin. The 3 prestige classes of Paladin (that I know) are Inquisitor, Undead Slayer, and Cavalier. Each Prestige class usually works quite differently, and they are a nice variation upon the base class.

I don't know how DDO will implement it, but in D&D 3/3.5 prestige classes are not specifically tied to a base class.  They're like advanced classes that you have to meet certain prerequisites to get.  Prerequisities can be mechanical things like having your BAB (base attack bonus) be at a certain level, having to have a certain alignment, being able to cast arcane/divine spells of a certain level, or having so many ranks in a skill.  There also can be role-playing prerequisities like belonging to a specific organization or having killed some rare monster. But even for, say, a melee focued prestige class, a wizard can still meet the prerequisites, he'll just probably have to be higher level than a fighter would have to be and/or pick up some levels in a melee class.   That may be one thing they'll do away with, because if playing MMORPGS has taught me anything, some morons will have a wizard pick up a melee based prestige classe and then cry that they've gimped themselves.   

Prestige classes are supposed to represent specialized training or the benefits of belonging to an organization (like Forgotten Realms' Harpers or Red Wizards).  In practice they're classes that tend to be more focused than the base classes.  They often give up the flexibility of the base classes in exchange for doing certain tasks better.

[Samwise]

Looking at Alkeria's post above, if you're going to multiclass, considering the maximal level, it might be best to do it with "support classes".  e.g. a Cleric / Druid (10/10) is better than a Fighter/Mage (10/10), since the latter is confronted with opposed tests in attacking the enemy directly, whereas the formal has no opposed tests in attempting to buff / heal team mates.

Cleric 20 or Druid 20 is gonna be quite a bit better than Cleric 10/Druid 10.  Consider:

1) Your Druidic vows will prevent you from wearing any metal armor, so your cleric's heavy armor proficiency will be wasted.
2) You'll never get access to anything past 5th level spells (like, say, Heal and Mass Heal, two of the best support spells in the game).
3) You'll be turning undead as a level 10 cleric, which is pretty useless against the level 20 undead you might face as a level 20 character.

You're also wasting a lot of those classes' potential if you play them purely as healers; both have very strong offensive options as well (flame strike anyone?).

As was mentioned above, multiclassing as a spellcaster generally isn't profitable - getting twice as many low level spells or a bit of extra combat ability doesn't make up for never getting the high level spells.  Now, multiclassing the combat-heavy classes (e.g. fighter/paladin or barbarian/ranger) can definitely give you some interesting combinations, since the strongest abilities of those classes (e.g. attack bonuses and high HP totals) all stack together when you multiclass.

[Strazos]

You have to be really careful when it comes to multi/dualclassing with casters. For instance, at least in IWD2, I found taking fighters to lvl 3-4, then switching over to mage seemed to work pretty well; they were not as vulnerable at lower levels, still had room to hit high enough levels to get high-end spells, and were able to equip all kinds of swords/shields, and elven chain mail if a set dropped (ie: armor that could also be equipped while casting arcane spells). The fighter levels also came in handy when using spells such as Tenser's Transformation, turning my mage into a melee beast. In BG2, I remember Aerie was a Cleric/Mage, and she was still useful to me.

But usually, I stick with Pure classes, but your mileage may vary.

[stray]

This game will rock.

To prevent myself from getting into a fanboi-ish type rant, I'll leave that as my only contribution to this thread.