Campers banned in FFXI

[schild]

Actions Taken Due to Member Agreement Violations

On February 14, over 800 accounts which repeatedly violated the PlayOnline
Member Agreement were permanently banned from PlayOnline.

The users of these accounts would form groups to monopolize the hunting
spots of notorious monsters (NM). They also repeatedly performed harassment and MPK actions against other players.

Grief tactics, including harassment, are listed in the PlayOnline Member
Agreement as violations and are not allowed for any reason. Also,
interfering other players' game play in order to monopolize monsters which spawn in hunting spots is not allowed.

Based on the above, we have taken strict actions against players who have
violated the PlayOnline Member Agreement.

If you become a victim of harrasment, please make a GM Call and report the issue directly to a Game Master.

Your understanding and cooperation will help us provide the best experience possible to our players.

I'm blown away. Seriously.

Edit: I should add, camping is the result of bad planning and item distribution in YOUR game. You can't...or shouldn't ban people for dealing with the inadequate mechanics and development in your game. The point is to FIX these problems so camping isn't a profitable venture.

[HaemishM]

Fixing the problem is less profitable than just banning people for doing it.

[WayAbvPar]

Not to mention much less amusing for us.

[Sky]

I should add, camping is the result of bad planning and item distribution in YOUR game. You can't...or shouldn't ban people for dealing with the inadequate mechanics and development in your game.

I disagree completely. People are free to cancel their subscription if they are not happy with the service. They are not free to break the terms of service, no matter the rationalization.

I understand where you're coming from, though. I just wouldn't play a game that sucked so bad I'd rather spend money on something than get it in the game. But then...if the spawn is being dominated...yeah, you gotta ban the farmers, man. Otherwise, why not just dominate the most lucrative spawns so /nobody/ can access them, and if folks want the drops, they are forced to buy them through the farmer?

A bad road, imo. One I don't want to walk down.

[schild]

You don't design a TOS to validate your shitty design concepts.

I could make an MMORPG and say people can't use a keyboard. And if I see them using a keyboard, I can ban them.

No, and no.

Squaresoft is fighting the wrong battle here. Duping is one thing. Camping is merely a defense mechanism against shitty design.

[Dren]

That game is all about camping at all levels.  That is why I quit.

However, it is also very popular.  The people playing it like to camp.  To them, there are no inherent design problems, so your argument doesn't mean much to them.

The game is about camping.  People were camping an area exclusively meaning they wouldn't let others camp (i.e. play the game.)  They were also trying to tip the economy so their actions were even more profitable.

They had no other choice but to ban them.  Changing the game so people didn't have to camp would basically be creating a whole new game that their customers may or may not have liked.

[Samwise]

Sounds like it went a bit beyond camping in this case.  Camping a spawn is one thing; griefing people who get near it is another.

[AcidCat]

That game is all about camping at all levels.  That is why I quit.

Same here. It was my first MMORPG, so I rode it on novelty for a long time ... but eventually I learned what the term "grind" meant.

[Koyasha]

It also mentions MPK, which is a term used in FFXI for training (Monster PK).  They aren't banning people for camping.  They're banning people for preventing anyone *else* from camping particular mobs, and for training those that try.  The announcement is pretty clear, really, that the people banned were directly interfering with others in order to monopolize the spawns.

[eldaec]

How does one differentiate 'monopolizing the spawn' from 'camping'?

[HaemishM]

It usually starts about the time they train a monster in on some newcomer and say "KEKELA ^__^"

[Dren]

How does one differentiate 'monopolizing the spawn' from 'camping'?

If they are preventing others from getting a mob by just being there first, that is camping.  If they train mobs in on people to prevent them from getting the mob and continue to do this for most of the prime time hours of play, that is monopolizing.

I can imagine they had "cafes" sitting at spots doing this for days and days straight using multiple players and multiple accounts.  It sounds like something bored Korean teenagers might do for a weekend or maybe even a week.  They consistently amaze me with new heights of catassitcal achievement.

[Sky]

Yeah, those Korean cats play online games like someone's pointing a nuke at them.

[Strazos]

Don't forget those damned Chinese or Korean MMO sweatshops. Just look at Lineage II if you need an example of the damage they have wrought. 10k/armor piece at lvl 10? Haha, no thanks...though I dropped out of beta after about 20 minutes in open beta...Word Wrap, for teh win.

[Windurst]

It usually starts about the time they train a monster in on some newcomer and say "KEKELA ^__^"

It was probably 1337 speeking Americans that were banned.

[geldonyetich]

FFXI is kicking ass and taking names in the MMOG world.  SirBruce's chart shows it scoring high above EQ, EQ2, and WoW.  (Although I wager a February update might place WoW above FFXI.)  It's still selling for about $40 at Walmart (evil demon spawn that chain may be) or $30 at Gamestop.   Amazing considering it's been out for PC for about a year and a half now (since 10/03).   This would not be possible if the game were the shittily designed crap you might make it out to be. 

It is, however, too much of a MMORPG for most.    Massive time investment?  Check.   Giant quests (with cutscenes) which will take you days to complete?  Check.   Mandatory grouping?  Check.   Hard to master combat system?  Check.

I miss it.   However, given that my account's been inactive for 3 months and they destroyed all my progress as is standard procedure, I'll not be coming back.    I'm currently mucking around with EQ2.

In regards to the recent bannings of a few hundred farmers, a valiant effort but somewhat futile.   You might spray the roaches in the kitchen, but that's no way to eliminate the thousands under the floorboards.    Oh well, at long as it helps keep them out of the hair of the majority of players, it's a good move.

[Strazos]

The problem is that the game is agonizingly slow. No matter what you want to do, you are forced to do it slowly.

Also, it has some of the blandest graphics I have ever seen.

BTW....just because you have to devote days at a time to the game to get anywhere doesn't mean it's any good. On the contrary, people with other things to do in life are at a signifigant disadvantage.

Oh yeah, and the economy is THE worst I have ever seen.

[Koyasha]

The economy seems better than most any other game I've ever played, but maybe that's just because I actually use the auction house in FFXI, whereas in all other games I've played, the AH system (if it exists) is so poorly designed as to be primarily an annoyance (looking at you, WoW).

But I agree with Geldon...great game, and the only reason I don't play it consistently is the absolutely, 100% forced grouping for *anything* whatsoever, unless you happen to be a Beastmaster.  At least in EQ, many classes could solo, depending on how creative you got with them.  I also don't like the Japanese/English shared servers.  Interesting concept, but in practice, I'd say it turned out poorly.  At least, in a game as group-centric as FFXI, especially with a complex combat system that relies on a lot more than 'hit attack'.  Since I *need* a group to do anything, and roughly half the people out there can't communicate effectively with me, it cuts down options a lot.  It's the simple fact that these games are for the most part about the community, and it's hard to form solid friendships with people whom you can hardly understand.

I like the graphics, too.   

[Gong]

eh, I thought FFXI was one of the worst MMOs I've ever played. You might as well not even bother attempting to group unless you've got a white mage. The death penalty is extremely strict, the game requires a ton of slow-ass running to get anywhere, and is very restrictive in terms of being able to play with friends of a different level. Then there's the aforementioned issues of camping, etc.

I don't even know that I'd say the combat system is particularly interesting. The skillchain/renkei is a decent idea, but in reality it comes down to "ok, every 10 swings, I try to press a button a few seconds after this other guy does". For someone who's already been around the block as far as MMORPGs are concerned, I don't see how anyone could play FFXI.

[geldonyetich]

FFXI is the kind of game that either "clicks" for you or it doesn't.    For a lot of people, the console-based restrictions on the GUI design was all it took for them to take off.    However, if you play FFXI long enough to get over the initial awkwardness, it'll keep you hooked better than any other MMORPG out there.   This is an EQ clone that was made by designers knowledgeable enough to actually know what made EQ so popular, then radically improved on it in several ways.

The economy is quite good, the auction house and trade skill systems being a central part of it.   The limited storage space forces players to put things up for auction, and the auction house is both the primary source of gil and new gear for most players.   It's a powerful, working player economy that does not pull any punches.   Other MMOGs wish they had a player economy that worked as well.

The combat system is remarkable not in innovation, because clearly it's little more than an EQ derivative, but instead in how meticulously it is balanced.   You need to pay attention and interact with the game in order to succeed, because there will be combats in which you are unlucky and that mob you beat the last 5 times without a problem is going to require a slightly different approach to survive.  The two-hour abilities every job receives provide a powerful ability in which you can heavily influence a fight gone awry.  Groups need to act like well-oiled machines in order to survive.  White mages are important additions, yes, but you can compromise with a well played RDM or two, at lower levels even subjobbed WHM or RDM will do the job.   Patient players could easily go through several even cons without the need for a healer, and maybe make up the difference from experience chains, but it's rare to find players with that mentality.   Player mentality in general is the main limitation on FFXI group composition - that probably applies to any MMORPG.  Renkai is a fantastic expression of good organization and a goal all groups can shoot for if they're willing to put forth the effort.

The subjob system is incredible in terms of allowing you customization of your character and creating lower level churn that assures you'll have a group under level 30 even though the game's been out for over a year.   The subjob system is vile and loathsome in terms of considering the sheer time investment involved of having to raise your character not once but several times to max out your favorite job/subjob combo.   Fortunately, the three starting cities can assure that you'll have a unique experience as you level your way up from the bottom for the third time.

Travel time is a bitch, but there are ways around it.   You'll be able to get a chocobo after about one or two hundred hours of play, and that eliminates most of the travel time from city to city for a fair gil price.   White mages and Black Mages earn travel spells.   Thieves get a fleeing ability that gives them a temporary boost of speed.   Overall, the travel restrictions (boring as they may be) do increase the perceptual world size considerably, and I never minded traveling because of the sheer beautiful hand-crafted appearance of the environments.

Overall, I consider FFXI a fair masterpiece in MMORPGs, but at the same time I recognize it's not the best game out there.  World of Warcraft and City of Heroes will generate a lot more short term fun in their faster paced combat mechanics.   FFXI is more focused on longevity.   It's got a seemingly deep feeling world and it's forced group mechanics (time consuming as they are) do assure a great deal of community involvement that is sorely lacking in most MMORPGs.   (I would like there to be a better way to get players to socialize, but so far I haven't found one.)

That's my FFXI rant, anywho.   Clearly, I still habor a lot of love for the game but, like I said, I'm not going back to it because the asshats went and deleted my character because the account's been inactive for 3 months.   Besides, it's not really a game I could recommend unless you've a lot of spare time to blow through anyway.    Sure, casual players could plod along at 2 hours a day, but you'd get a lot more fun out of WoW or CoH or even EQ2 for that time frame.  (The later is an interesting consideration given that EQ2 differs from the first two in that it does establish an "epic" feeling world.)

[Rasix]

1 out of 1 super-tards agree, FFXI is super-fun, ultra-pain, kekela~ MMORPG #1!!! I think keeping my camels alive in ATiTD was more entertaining than FFXI's level progression.  FFXI was a game built for certain people. One of those people was not me.  God, I think I look back at my time spent in AC2 or AO with more fondness.

I think at one time Everquest stumbled upon some cryptonite.  It then split into two distinct beings on opposite sides of the spectrum, WoW and FFXI.  Two distinct, powerful beings.  I'd be curious if there was a person that could love both at the same time.   

Woo, that wasn't on topic at all. GO ME.  I guess my sanity is slipping after spending 3 hours loading code on machines then getting a fatal defect within a minute.

[Margalis]

FFXI is better than WoW, I have no doubt about that. I stopped playing FFXI because every group HAD to have a white mage and wating around forever is not my idea of fun. That was incredibly broken.

But everything else was better. WoW is just plain boring, sorry folks. Boring looking, boring items, boring spells, boring quests, boring story. No sense of place, sense of world, sense of anything.

FFXI is much better visually, has much better audio, has many more 'oh cool' moments, the fighting has more oomph, etc etc. If not for the horrible WHM problems I would probably still be playing it.

I really don't understand how WoW holds people's attention for more than a few days. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Toast]

I really don't understand how WoW holds people's attention for more than a few days. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Congrats on your contrary opinion.

I have no idea how WoW holds people's attention, but it somehow does at an unprecedented scale.

What I don't understand is how a soul-crushing grindfest like FFXI can still have devoted fans. Heck, even Wish had a short busload full of fans, so go figure.

[AcidCat]

No sense of place, sense of world, sense of anything.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

It is funny how people can experience the same game and come to exact opposite conclusions. I think WoW has a great sense of place, a wonderful and atmospheric world.

I did also like FFXI's world, though the aesthetic was very different from WoW, it worked in its own way, I liked that the world had a sense of realism without being bland. I liked the travel time and the atmosphere of Vana'diel, I was such a tourist in that game. Too bad the punishing gameplay eventually banished me.

[Margalis]

All these games are about advancement. Does anyone seriously believe that WoW isn't about advancement?

I guess I can see COH being about something other than just advancing, with the super-hero theme, fun movement, and that sort of stuff. But WoW to me seems very advancement-centric. Even moreso than a lot of games.

The advancement is faster, but it's still advancement based. The quests don't turn me on because the quests are just "kill X monsters", which is exactly the same as levelling.

FFXI is also obviously about advancing. But advancing in FFXI is more fun to me. You get some new abilities that really alter your characters, and each level is a fun trip to the store to buy new goodies. In WoW the new goodies are very uninspired, as are the abilities.

The dings in FFXI take longer, but they also are cooler. I think it's kind of silly to talk about a "soul crushing grind", that's all either of the games really offer. Although FFXI does have housing, more involved crafting, and more side activities. (Gardening, fishing, ballista, etc)

The idea of getting XP by doing quests is cool, but not when the quests are all just variations on killing a bunch of stuff. That's just fluff. I think you're fooling yourself if you think you aren't grinding in WoW. It's not like the quests are actually fun.

[AcidCat]

I think you're fooling yourself if you think you aren't grinding in WoW. It's not like the quests are actually fun.

The game lets you fool yourself, that's the beauty of it. And I've found the questing much more enjoyable than the "we camp here for hours, go pull keke" mind-numbing monotony found in FFXI.

[Margalis]

It is funny how people can experience the same game and come to exact opposite conclusions. I think WoW has a great sense of place, a wonderful and atmospheric world.

It probably depends a lot on what race you play. I played as a Troll, and Trolls did not appear to have any backstory whatsoever. In the intro movie/text they say the trolls got wrecked and had to go live with the Orcs (or something like that) but that's all I ever heard. There was basically no other mention of trolls at all.

I started at the Den, explored that sub-continent (up to Ogrimmar in the north) then out to the barrens. It all basically looked the same, and all the enemies were the same with different graphics for the most part. I hear there are forests and things like that, all I saw were plains, rocks, and bigger plains. Again, maybe I was just in the wrong place.

To me the FFXI world certainly seemed more baked. Every race was significantly different and had different, well-developed personalities. In WoW I have no idea how Orcs and Trolls are different, other than Trolls smoke more weed.

[AcidCat]

The Orc/Troll starting areas are probably the least interesting ... didn't you try any other races? There really is is quite a bit of variety.

[Rasix]

Trolls as a whole don't have a very strong presence in the game.  They basically have two villiages, Senjin and Shadowprey.  Ones a noob village where you only visit again to buy your raptor and one's in a zone that some people skip altogether.  If you want more of a sense of racial identity play the undead or tauren.  Both opening areas are wonderfully well done.  Tauren has a high plains, native american type vibe while the undead are just sinister through and through but at the same time struggling for an identity separate from the scourge.  Orc is kind of the generic horde unit and not much has really been built into their culture other than a reverance for battle and strength.  I played a troll, not much there except a cool mount, and the feeling that you were just subjugated into the horde while the rest of the trolls are still distrustful shits and at war with everyone.

And if you truly, truly want a feel for how the races are, don't play with a UI mod that makes the quest text zip by. You can actually get more of the whole story if you stop to read some of the quests instead of insta hitting accept and then loading it up to see what you need to collect/kill/rescure/escort/bbq/whatever.

I made my rogue an undead, partially for the easy of leveling in their early zones, the kick ass racial trait, but also because I just couldn't stomach another shot of the bland orc/troll staring area (I did it 3 times in beta and twice in final, NO MAS).

[Margalis]

The Orc/Troll starting areas are probably the least interesting ... didn't you try any other races? There really is is quite a bit of variety.

The first one I tried was boring, that was enough for me. I had no urge to continue in the hopes that other races would be less boring.

[Strazos]

Hey, I looked up some words in the dictionary....Boring and Bland....and next to them I found this:



Sorry, the game is just the most boring timesink I have ever encountered. The leveling is painfully slow. The combat is incredibly slow and tedious. The travelling, even with a mount, is slow. The community is an abomination. While the graphics themselves are alright, the colors are just nauseating; everything just looked bland and washed-out (and this wasn't just me). Due to crazy asian campers and online item/gil sales, the economy is fundamentally broken. The tradeskills are just another forgetable time/moneysink.

If you can somehow like the game, great...but you're doing yourself a disservice. While I do not play the game anymore, WoW has tons more personality...and fun. I  honestly cannot think of anything FUN I did in FFXI. I joined so I could play with a friend, and I was going to try to catch up to him....I only got to ~lvl 20 before I used my CD's in place of clay pigeons.

[Margalis]

Eh, I don't really see the difference.

In WoW the levelling is faster, but each ding is less impressive. In WoW the fights are shorter, but that just means you have more of them. What's the difference between 10 fights that take an hour and 80 that take an hour?

In both games you're still fundamentally just fighting the same creatures over and over again. I guess a big part of my problem was that the quests in WoW to me were nothing more than "go kill X of this creature instead of whatever creature you actually feel like killing." It's just directed killing instead of undirected killing.

Both games are just running around and killing stuff, and IMO that's more fun in FFXI. The travel times and the white mage issues in FFXI were awful, which is why I stopped playing. The travel times are easy to fix, the WHM issues are another story. Not a great fix for that without totally redoing the enemies or classes.

[Tige]

Hey, I looked up some words in the dictionary....Boring and Bland....and next to them I found this:

Got any spiffy "Yo Momma" jokes you can use in conjunction with that gem?

[geldonyetich]

I have to say that, once I get down to examining the individual gameplay mechanics of both World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI, I think it's a gross injustice to suggest they're not the least bit innovative and boil down to typical MMORPG advancement.

World of Warcraft is more "game" than FFXI or EQ.   This is hardly surprising coming from Blizzard, makers of Diablo, Starcraft, and Warcraft.   As is trademark in their games, there are some nice gameplay gimmicks in place to keep things interesting.   They have a penchant for balance that lets them create very different gameplay experiences across their different classes much like the difference between the Terrans, Protoss, and Zerg in Starcraft.   It's a good game... but not necessarily a good MMORPG.  The lack of epic feeling, possibly derived from lack of social obligation, quick leveling, and oversimplified trade skills, leads to an eventual lack of purpose to invest time in the game.   (Much like City of Heroes.)

Final Fantasy XI is much more "world" than World of Warcraft, which is hardly surprising considering it's a product of Square-Enix, who are probably the best computer game artists in the business.  How many game development companies do you know out there who create full length motion pictures with their CGI?  However, this isn't simply "game vs. world" because FFXI also takes what's "game" from EQ and improves upon it.   I've elaborated enough about what FFXI brings to the table in my previous message, but it basically boils down to a better overall purpose to play.   Yet, the time investment is considerably higher and the combat is far less visceral and more cooperative in emphasis, which some may rightfully call boring.

Both games innovate.  Both games have a radically different take to the MMORPG genre that is the reason why they're both retaining hundreds of thousands of subscribers.   Rasix may have had it right when he said, "I think at one time Everquest stumbled upon some cryptonite.  It then split into two distinct beings on opposite sides of the spectrum, WoW and FFXI.  Two distinct, powerful beings.  I'd be curious if there was a person that could love both at the same time."

I don't blame those who call Final Fantasy XI "Bland" and "Boring" any more than I do those who would call World of Warcraft "short-term" or "lacking purpose".   There's something to be said for having a game "click" with you.   If it turns out you prefer one over the other, it likely has something to do with what you're trying to find in the game, and not a fault in the one you didn't pick.   There's something people are trying to get out of any game: I could see people wanting to play World of Warcraft if they prefer exciting gameplay with few obligations attached just as I could see people (myself) preferring Final Fantasy XI if they're looking for something more epic feeling, a virtual world that feels rich enough to mentally move into.  See, I can argue it both ways 

A wierd thing I've noticed about me is that one kind of game will innoculate me in another direction.   Perhaps after playing a lot of FFXI I'll suddenly have a craving for the faster paced gameplay in World of Warcraft or City of Heroes.  Then, after I'm sick of that and feeling like I really need a game that feels like a worthy time investment, I might find myself playing FFXI, or even SWG (a game which lacks a great deal of focus in the gameplay but where many of your actions can carry reprocussions).   It's games which achieve a fair medium between the two that I stick with the longest.   Lately I started mucking around with EQ2, it's still early in the honeymoon but I am very impressed with how often they've been updating the game, there's a fair amount of gameplay in heroic opportunities, and as anyone's first impressions will tell you, it doesn't lack "world".   There's said to be a lot of group dependancy, but then they turn around and start trying to make allowances for soloing.

[Strazos]

The lack of epic feeling, possibly derived from lack of social obligation, quick leveling, and oversimplified trade skills, leads to an eventual lack of purpose to invest time in the game. (Much like City of Heroes.)

"Epic feeling" seems to be something that is very difficult to quantify. Also, the quick leveling was kind of nice; you don't feel like you're in a rut for days or weeks like other games. And I've always had an extreme distaste for tradeskills, except in WoW - they were all useful from the start, and I don't have to devote days at a time to become any good at it. You can get better at it as you go, and there has to be something to said about that.

Final Fantasy XI is much more "world" than World of Warcraft, which is hardly surprising considering it's a product of Square-Enix, who are probably the best computer game artists in the business.

I just felt that FFXI's "world" was just unneccessarily large and barren. That damn beach with the snips comes to mind. Also, last I checked (Yes, I could be wrong), FFXI was Square-Enix's first foray into the realm of the PC, and also their first true MMOG or RPG. Yes, I am excluding all their console "RPG's". They're just adventure games to me if I'm dragged along a rail andI have no actual role in the outcome of the game.

How many game development companies do you know out there who create full length motion pictures with their CGI?

Unless there's more I haven't seen between my own gameplay and that of my friend who has some silly lvl 65+ Ninja/Warrior, I didn't see any actual CGI stuff...just in-game cutscenes using the game's own engine. Blizzard uses some CGI in the opening of WoW, showcasing the races....but it's really pointless, just useless shiney.

BTW, I just found WoW's gameplay and quest system to be a lot more robust and focused than FFXI's effort. In XI, you just sit down in a spot and camp...for hours....for multiple play sessions. At least in WoW I was constantly moving about the world, doing different things, with the quests giving me specific things to do.

I know a few people who still play FFXI....and they know there are better games out there, but they refuse to leave; they feel too invested in FFXI to leave - they're reluctant to just drop all of the progress they've made, that has cost them such an inordinate amount of time. I'm sure there are plenty of players who still have active sub's because of this....doesn't make the game good though.

Sorry, but after my experience in EQ, I refuse to "camp"...it, quite literally, puts me to sleep.

PS: Don't take it personal.....you're free to play whatever ya like....but I'm still gonna debate it here...Kinda the point of f13, hehe.