Sell me on your favorite class

[Draegan]

Smart money is on mercenary.

[Evildrider]

The problem with that theory is the healing tree for the IA/smuggler gets you saddled with the shitty melee dps. I mean, it's not shitty dps-wise, I just felt ridiculous doing it.

What you don't want to backstab the boss so you can throw your big heal on the tank?!   

[kildorn]

The problem with that theory is the healing tree for the IA/smuggler gets you saddled with the shitty melee dps. I mean, it's not shitty dps-wise, I just felt ridiculous doing it.

What you don't want to backstab the boss so you can throw your big heal on the tank?!   

If the talent tree is anything like the smuggler's, you shouldn't need to do that. Smugglers have a very low tier talent that turns their long cast heal into an opener for the special heals. No run into melee required there.

Where I get wary of Smuggler and possibly Trooper healing is that both appear to reward slow and steady play/healing, and punish you severely if you get into a situation where you need to cast outside that pattern. This made PUG healing.. stressful for me. Perfectly normal when tank healing, OH GOD WHY the second someone other than the tank decided to go offtank something.

The force regen mechanic just seems far more forgiving, even if in theory the IA/Smuggler will be infinite tank healers with their mechanic.

[Der Helm]

Sell me on your favorite class

Sith Inquisitor -- Lord Zash is your master.

She's cute, isn't she ?

[Sjofn]

Yeah it's less I'm worried about actually healing in an actual group situation, but more "I have to do my melee shit if I want things to die at a reasonable pace, at least in the early stages before I get a DPS companion." My consular it felt more natural to do my pew pew shit, because it was all ranged casty shit. My IA kept having to run up to people and stab them in the face EVEN THOUGH I HAD A PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL GUN. It just feels doofy.

[Fordel]

Because the Minstrel was built around that stealth. All of those abilities are working on the assumption you have access to stealth.

Conversely nothing my Balance Druid does assumes I actually even know stealth exists for my class.

Seriously?  Please to explain to the person who played a Minstrel for years which of 'all of those abilities' you're referring to?  Because you could easily play a Minstrel without ever knowing the class even had stealth, and I knew people who played just like that.

I'm frankly almost incredulous that taking the position of 'stealth class = class with stealth' is considered some kind of radical idea.

Every single cast spell/song, all their ranges, durations and shit are based on the idea you can start from a hidden position and re-enter that hidden position fairly trivially. It's one of the most effective ways to play the class, to be that bastard that instantly vanishes as soon as the groups see each other, appears at the worst possible moment to CC your healer or whatever, then disappears just as easily and repeat the fucking process. Did YOU use stealth? Would you agree not using stealth meant you weren't taking advantage of everything the Minstrel has to offer?

Would you argue that a Moonkins stealth ability is somehow as integral or on par to the Minstrels? Is a Moonkin a 'stealth class'?


If we are going by what we saw people do, I knew a Midgard Healer (for those who didn't play DaoC, the class was actually called 'Healer') that used to melee right beside me on the train, are we going to call Healers a melee class now?  



Shadow/Assasins who aren't speccing into their specific Stealth tree, are going to use Stealth the same way my Moonkin does, to skip mobs while leaving a questing cave and trying to gain an opening in pvp. Other wise it might as well not even be on the bar.

Maybe they'll use Jedi Sap if they are desperate, MAYBE.




-fake edit-

Smugglers/IA healing covers the bursts through the use of their Tactical Advantage shenanigans. Commando/Merc healers pray those situations only come every 2 minutes to sync up with their recharge cooldown.  

[kildorn]

My smuggler does feel a bit silly running up (aside from NUTSHOT, which is the best stun ever), and I love that Quick Shot is a blaster shot with a third of the normal range for no reason besides "oh, this spec should be close range", but beating someone with my gun and somehow doing more damage than shooting them with it seemed.. stupid.

My sage however I kept running up to things when solo and swinging my lightsaber because god damnit man, you have a fucking LIGHTSABER. USE IT.

edit: this minstrel tangent is silly. I was one of those NO STEALTH minstrels, possibly because 1 stealth rating was more than enough if you didn't play STEALTHER WARS. I could still hang out by a milegate and be practically invisible. But minst abilities weren't really balanced around stealth, they were balanced around the idea that you'd throw points into stealth and not into songs or combat. Their mezz and everything else were pretty much identical to their non stealthed counterparts, aside from being able to single mezz while moving.

But personally, I consider "stealth class" to mean anyone with a non duration based stealth. Even if you can't actually do much special with it. From memory, One assassin/shadow tree is based around dps out of stealth. The others have toys to get those stealth force buffs and whatnot just from normal skills. They're a stealth class, but most of the spec options are in the same sense that a healing smuggler is a stealth class: you can use it to pick fights in pvp, and avoid bullshit in pve. But you do most of your fighting without any concern to stealth directly. It's convenience more than a core mechanic.

[Fordel]

Stay away from Vanguards then, where the most effective use of my Rifle is as a blunt object.

[Rasix]

I just choose the class with missiles.  Nothing wrong with missiles.

[Fordel]

It's a fine plan!

[Nevermore]

edit: this minstrel tangent is silly. I was one of those NO STEALTH minstrels, possibly because 1 stealth rating was more than enough if you didn't play STEALTHER WARS. I could still hang out by a milegate and be practically invisible. But minst abilities weren't really balanced around stealth, they were balanced around the idea that you'd throw points into stealth and not into songs or combat. Their mezz and everything else were pretty much identical to their non stealthed counterparts, aside from being able to single mezz while moving.

But personally, I consider "stealth class" to mean anyone with a non duration based stealth. Even if you can't actually do much special with it. From memory, One assassin/shadow tree is based around dps out of stealth. The others have toys to get those stealth force buffs and whatnot just from normal skills. They're a stealth class, but most of the spec options are in the same sense that a healing smuggler is a stealth class: you can use it to pick fights in pvp, and avoid bullshit in pve. But you do most of your fighting without any concern to stealth directly. It's convenience more than a core mechanic.

I was about to open a can of whoop-ass on Fordel about how wrong he was about the differences between the Minstrel abilities vs the other realms counterparts (ie: nearly every spell is identical), but I figure your post above is a fine substitute to continuing that slap fight.  I'd like to point out one thing though:

Shadow/Assasins who aren't speccing into their specific Stealth tree, are going to use Stealth the same way my Moonkin does, to skip mobs while leaving a questing cave and trying to gain an opening in pvp. Other wise it might as well not even be on the bar.

What do you call a class that has a specific stealth tree, if not a stealth class?  Whether or not an individual chooses to spec into that tree is irrelevant, since someone will.  This is also why your Balance argument is spurious.  Druids in WoW are a stealth class.  Whether or not you take advantage of that is up to you.  If you choose to ignore the stealth aspect and spec Balance that's your business, but that doesn't suddenly mean Druids aren't a stealth class.

The entire point is you don't have to be a WoW Rogue to be a 'stealth class', which is why that whole Minstrel derail was started, in a futile attempt to demonstrate that point.

[Fordel]

No the counter argument is you DO have to be a 'WoW Rogue' in order to be a Stealth Class. As in the stealth needs to be a central part of the entire class and it's gameplay. It doesn't have to literally mean combo points and backstab no, but it has to apply across the entire package.

We don't call the Assassin/Shadow a stealth class for the same reason we stopped just labeling Paladins as 'healers', since you know, 2 thirds of the class only uses the healing aspect marginally at best.




PS. Minstrel cast time spells were totally inferior to their other realm counterparts, go ahead, check the radius and cast time on their AE Mez. Compare it to the Eld's and Spiritmasters. Tell me what you find. 



So how bout dem Troopers, PEW PEW!

[Sjofn]

The best music class was the skald anyway.  



Anyhow, *I* don't consider a class a "stealth class" unless stealth is a big ass defining ability. So while druids can stealth, I don't consider them a stealth class the same way I consider rogues to be one. ALL the rogue specs are stealth-oriented in some way. Druids don't depend on it nearly as much except for one spec. And I assume that's what was meant by "that's not reeeeally a stealth class." It's not that crazy.

[Fordel]

Whatever, Dubstep laser queen!

[Sjofn]

BRRZOW BRRZOW <swiiiiiings her FREE TWO HANDED WEAPON VERY SLOWLY>


Crap, out of end.

[Nevermore]

No the counter argument is you DO have to be a 'WoW Rogue' in order to be a Stealth Class. As in the stealth needs to be a central part of the entire class and it's gameplay. It doesn't have to literally mean combo points and backstab no, but it has to apply across the entire package.

We don't call the Assassin/Shadow a stealth class for the same reason we stopped just labeling Paladins as 'healers', since you know, 2 thirds of the class only uses the healing aspect marginally at best.

If you're going to use that narrow a definition for 'stealth class', then it could be argued that even WoW Rogues aren't a stealth class since Combat Rogues don't use stealth as a central part of their gameplay.  As as you established with Paladins, once one tree is excluded the entire class is*. 

Or does only having a few abilities like Sap, Vanish, Ambush, Cheap Shot** and maybe Overkill from the Assassination tree make a class focused in stealth enough to be a 'stealth class'?  Because if Shadow/Assassin isn't 'stealthy' enough then neither is a Combat Rogue.

*By the way, go to the WoW boards and post a thread with the title "Are Paladins a healing class?" and see how many people say 'Why no, good sir! Paladins are not a healing class because only one tree can heal!'  Actually thinking about it, I guess that means there aren't any healing classes at all in both WoW and SWTOR by your definition! 

**Ok, Spinning Kick is just kind of a bad fusion of both but I think that's what they were trying to go for.

[Fordel]

*By the way, go to the WoW boards and post a thread with the title "Are Paladins a healing class?" and see how many people say 'Why no, good sir! Paladins are not a healing class because only one tree can heal!'  Actually thinking about it, I guess that means there aren't any healing classes at all in both WoW and SWTOR by your definition! 

I would totally argue there aren't any true healing classes in WoW anymore. In vanilla sure, that's pretty much all Paladins and Druids could actually do really (Druids weren't even doing that much in raids  ) Like yea, go make that post and see how many people rage at you for even implying that they should heal or check how many paladins are specced ret/ret or ret/prot or whatever. You could maybe argue priests, with two trees having a strong healing role and even their dps tree having that tertiary bonus (or did, I have no idea how they stack up in Cata these days).

Or shit, does Exorcism mean we can call Paladins a ranged caster now too? 


Combat Rogues are also still going to give way more of a fuck about stealth then the two non-stealth Shadow trees will and that's the exception to the class there.





Or to put it another way, should we argue the Vanguard is a ranged class? I have a bunch of shit that has 30 meters on it! Totally ranged right!

No, were not, because it's totally designed to be right up there in melee with the rest of the Saber Jockeys, with both Vanguard Specific Trees all focusing on that inside the 10 meter range with a really strong melee attack rolled in. Even the Vanguards version of the shared tree is leaning towards that 10 meter range with a focus on Ion Pulse in multiple talents.

I don't see any of that kind of focus in either of the non-Infiltration trees for the shadow. Maybe its all tucked away in there hidden in Jedi Speak, since they are starting to get into that Hand of Justice Hammer naming issue paladins have. Doesn't look like it though.

[01101010]

Smart money is on mercenary.

Seconded. Like Rasix says: nothing wrong with missiles, even small tactical nukes.

[Lantyssa]

Shadows and Assassins are stealth classes.  It doesn't need to be their only gimmick, but they are one if you choose to play them as such.

[Draegan]

The problem with that theory is the healing tree for the IA/smuggler gets you saddled with the shitty melee dps. I mean, it's not shitty dps-wise, I just felt ridiculous doing it.

What you don't want to backstab the boss so you can throw your big heal on the tank?!   

If the talent tree is anything like the smuggler's, you shouldn't need to do that. Smugglers have a very low tier talent that turns their long cast heal into an opener for the special heals. No run into melee required there.

Where I get wary of Smuggler and possibly Trooper healing is that both appear to reward slow and steady play/healing, and punish you severely if you get into a situation where you need to cast outside that pattern. This made PUG healing.. stressful for me. Perfectly normal when tank healing, OH GOD WHY the second someone other than the tank decided to go offtank something.

The force regen mechanic just seems far more forgiving, even if in theory the IA/Smuggler will be infinite tank healers with their mechanic.

That's how the Sage works too.  The more force you have, the faster it regens.  The instant and quicker heals cost more than the longer cast heals.  Players are rewarded for well timed, and thought out healing.  The less you deplete your force the faster it comes back.  You are punished for spamming quick heals.  If you do, you run out of force quickly and then get stuck with sluggish regen.

[Sky]

I just choose the class with missiles.  Nothing wrong with missiles.

Despite having missiles...I like that the powertech just likes to punch people in the FACE!

[Draegan]

Yeah it's less I'm worried about actually healing in an actual group situation, but more "I have to do my melee shit if I want things to die at a reasonable pace, at least in the early stages before I get a DPS companion." My consular it felt more natural to do my pew pew shit, because it was all ranged casty shit. My IA kept having to run up to people and stab them in the face EVEN THOUGH I HAD A PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL GUN. It just feels doofy.

Melee IA's are nasty in PVP if that's your thing.  So are snipers for that matter.  Super max range behind a large shield... yeah.  Powerful.

[Draegan]

Shadows and Assassins are stealth classes.  It doesn't need to be their only gimmick, but they are one if you choose to play them as such.

I believe they only have Shadow Strike that is augmented by stealth as well as increased force regen when coming out of stealth.  Then Blackout that triggers this effect without going into stealth.

They also have a full Melee/Cast hybrid builds, DOT builds, Tank builds, and in your face melee builds that all don't use stealth.  When looking over the class as a whole, you're probably going to find more builds without stealth than with. 

They do have stealth, but so many of their abilities, or a vast majority of them, do nothing with stealth at all.

[Azuredream]

That's how the Sage works too.  The more force you have, the faster it regens.  The instant and quicker heals cost more than the longer cast heals.  Players are rewarded for well timed, and thought out healing.  The less you deplete your force the faster it comes back.  You are punished for spamming quick heals.  If you do, you run out of force quickly and then get stuck with sluggish regen.

I don't remember this being the case, according to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1026827-HEALING!-A-Comparison-of-the-Healers it's a static 8 force/second.

[01101010]

I just choose the class with missiles.  Nothing wrong with missiles.

Despite having missiles...I like that the powertech just likes to punch people in the FACE!

SHORYUKEN!

[Lantyssa]

They do have stealth, but so many of their abilities, or a vast majority of them, do nothing with stealth at all.

A stealth class does not mean all of their abilities have to trigger off of stealth.

Maybe it's because I played a stealther on a MUD whose only stealth ability was sneak.  No backstabs or other abilities which directly benefited from being in stealth.  However it was still my most powerful skill, and let me do things few others on the server could accomplish. [Doppelganger might be considered the MUD version of Vanish, in which case it was hugely powerful, and let me as a weak mage control the flow of battle.]

That said, for a level 23 Assassin going full tank, I had Shadow Strike, some positional abilities, enhanced cloaking, and the combat vanish.  All exceptionally useful to a solo character in getting to places they shouldn't be.  (I completed my Tattooine storyline at level 23.  Solo.  Because of stealth.)

[Draegan]

That's how the Sage works too.  The more force you have, the faster it regens.  The instant and quicker heals cost more than the longer cast heals.  Players are rewarded for well timed, and thought out healing.  The less you deplete your force the faster it comes back.  You are punished for spamming quick heals.  If you do, you run out of force quickly and then get stuck with sluggish regen.

I don't remember this being the case, according to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1026827-HEALING!-A-Comparison-of-the-Healers it's a static 8 force/second.

As of the Fansite Summit, Georg Zoeller told me this was the case when he was watching us play over our shoulders and wiping constantly on some overly tuned flashpoints.

[kildorn]

That's how the Sage works too.  The more force you have, the faster it regens.  The instant and quicker heals cost more than the longer cast heals.  Players are rewarded for well timed, and thought out healing.  The less you deplete your force the faster it comes back.  You are punished for spamming quick heals.  If you do, you run out of force quickly and then get stuck with sluggish regen.

I don't remember this being the case, according to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1026827-HEALING!-A-Comparison-of-the-Healers it's a static 8 force/second.

As of the Fansite Summit, Georg Zoeller told me this was the case when he was watching us play over our shoulders and wiping constantly on some overly tuned flashpoints.

That would make them the only class with a variable speed regen mechanic that is not displayed ANYWHERE. From playing it, this didn't seem the case during the test weekend. It's very noticeable on the Smuggler, where if you're below half energy you have to start burning cooldowns or it's going to go badly.

The force users basically have "normal" mana mechanics, and are punished for using fast heals by the fast heals being horribly force inefficient. But every comparison of the healers I have seen points out that due to their static regen amount, they're far easier to react to random shit with since you aren't torn between "do I heal dumbass in the fire and completely fuck myself for the rest of the fight, or let him die so my rotation is sustainable"

[Threash]

And Bounty hunter shoots right to the front of the race on the basis of jawa with a motherfucking rocket launcher. 

[Nevermore]

That's how the Sage works too.  The more force you have, the faster it regens.  The instant and quicker heals cost more than the longer cast heals.  Players are rewarded for well timed, and thought out healing.  The less you deplete your force the faster it comes back.  You are punished for spamming quick heals.  If you do, you run out of force quickly and then get stuck with sluggish regen.

I don't remember this being the case, according to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1026827-HEALING!-A-Comparison-of-the-Healers it's a static 8 force/second.

Wait, why are people on MMO Champion call them 'Healers' and 'Healing ACs'?  According to Fordel, there are no healing classes. 

When describing a class as a Healing Class or Stealthing Class, that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can do.  Paladins are a Healing Class.  They are also a Tanking Class, as well as a DPS class. They can do all those things as a class but an individual player cannot.  If you can't call them a healing class, then by extension you also can't call them a tanking or dps class either.  You can't call them...  well, anything.

Saying Shadows/Assassins aren't a stealth class means you also can't call them a tanking class.  I mean fuck, the reason labels like 'tanking class' or 'stealthing class' are even used is so people know that class X has the potential to tank, or stealth, or heal or whatever.  What's that?  You can potentially turn invisible anytime on demand outside of combat (and even sometimes in combat), sneak up to someone and use abilities that key off of your stealth?  I'm sorry, that doesn't make you a stealth class because you have a choice to not do that if you don't want to. 

[Draegan]

Now you're just arguing to be a dick.

[Nevermore]

Just because your position is untenable is no reason to be an asshole about it.

[Draegan]

All I'm saying is that they aren't defined by stealth, so therfore they aren't a stealth class.  They're not a tank class either.  They have the potential to be a lot of different types of "classes"

[Nevermore]

And all I'm saying is descriptors like Stealth Class or Healing Class describe abilities, not play styles, else they're pretty useless as descriptors.

[Fordel]

And all I'm saying is they DO describe playstyles, and I would say they have a stealth tree or a heal tree. Even in that article the first thing they do is say "and you'll have to spec in these specific trees if you want to heal!"

Otherwise my Vanguard is a ranged class, which would be a false statement. Just as false as saying a WoW hunter is a melee class because shit they have melee attacks right! Describing those abilities! 



Kild- The Force Regen isn't variable like Heat/Ammo, it just gets BETTER. More Force More Regen or whatever. At least that's what I've understood from the complaints from the other two healers