Pre-release thread discussion

[Engels]

So from what I'm hearing, folks are saying that as well written as the story lines are, they are finite, and that the immersion of them breaks down when you have to do repetitive 'kill 10 foozles' content to push the story arc ahead, is that right?

I'm thinking that any MMO that hangs its hat on a quest storyline by itself is cruizin' for a bruisin'.

How about the content itself, the mobs, the environments, the 'dungeons'? Are they rich enough to sustain engagement without the story lines of your character's quest? The reason I ask is because I believe that what makes or breaks an MMO is the depth of the world itself, regardless of how much your own toon's story is catered to.

Back in the bad old days of EQ, the quests were not that much about your character. You had a choice to advance your toon by doing a quest, which may or may not advance you along a faction line (Dwarves vs Giants in Velius, for instance), but by and large, your choices were actually narrowing your ability to access the world, not really enhancing your immersion. Entire guilds had to decide if they were Giant or Overthere or whathaveyou, to the exclusion of significant amounts of content.

Thankfully the content of EQ was so enormous that narrowing your choices along a particular faction really didn't affect the enjoyment of the game in a significant way.

So, by the same token, I'm interested in hearing about non-quest related content. Is there a sense of the world around you operating despite your interaction with it?

This is something that I feel modern MMOs get entirely wrong; they try to focus so much on how you're a precious special flower (which simply cannot be coded) that they forget to make the world itself the focus of interest.

To illustrate: My dark elf shadowknight had a bad childhood and wanted revenge against the bad Qeynos guards that diddled her in prison or whatevs, but OMGWTFBBQ I just got to face off against motherfin' Rallos Zek, the God of War. The latter was always more compelling.

[Merusk]

I'm not entirely sure I can answer what you're asking as I only got to the 2nd world on 2 toons.  It felt like the Star Wars universe and that things were going on around me, but that could be my  of KOTOR as a setting itself.   I certainly don't know if you get to wander back and around later on, which is what gave EQ part of that world feeling.

[Draegan]

I played my Jedi Shadow up to 16 last night (again), and I hope to get into the 20s sometime by the end of next weekend.

I have to say Coruscant is fucking awful.  It's one reason to have sprint at level 10 and not 14.  Fuck all that running around.

Assholes.

There is also an issue somewhere around level 14 or 15 when you go into the Justicar area on Coruscant and you suddenly get access to like 6 or so quests all in one area, and you end up sitting there listening to some asshole who's whining that their brother is missing and it ends up being a quick fedex like quest.  That shit I skip.

The game suffers when you have TOO many quests to do.  You stop caring and it ruins the story telling element.

[Mattemeo]

Just messing around with character creation again and I think my main problem with SWtOR is always going to be the lack of interesting PC races.

Setting aside the mind-bogglingly awful Miraluka (yay! Humans! Completely and utterly human! But they have no eyes! So they're humans in blindfolds! That's a fucking race, right?), pretty much everything besides Twi'lek is a human with an anime skin colour. There's no difference in body structure, they almost all have the requisite facial features which all correspond to human expectations... there's nothing different to play.

This is made all the more damning every time I run into a Nautolan or Cathar or Togruta that can clearly speak perfectly good Galactic Basic. They're not completely outlandish - they're all bipedal, they have emotive faces - but whyever is it they chose the fucking Blue Man Group people Chiss over significantly more iconic races I will never work out.

Having played the game some now, I'm even going to say that the very good argument about voice acting being an issue when it comes to racial choices isn't that important. All non-galactic speaking races come with subtitles anyway, so what's wrong with presenting my PC's dialogue choices in english and then have them spoken in an appropriate form of gibberish? That way races like Rodians and Trandoshans who are, again, immensely iconic, work fine within the precepts of the game.

I really like playing the game, but I see very little reason for half the racial choices to be there. Dull, dull, dull.

[Pezzle]

Actually, there are not a TON of strict kill 10x quests.  That type of thing shows up as incidental bonus xp quests that complete in the background of what you are doing.  You get plenty of 'recover weapon crates' or 'disarm bomb' quests but they tend to involve static world objects that respawn reasonably quickly.  Overall the pace of what you are doing flows well.  There have been some situations where quest items did not drop before my bonus kill x had been finished but it seems they put effort into making your quest item farming not be such a drag.  In addition, you are often contacted by holo and get voice stuff to change the flow.  Even if it is just giving you the next objective it is far more compelling.  

The worlds can seem huge or cramped.  Nar Shadda is all corridors with some big rooms.  Tatooine is wide open with a few structures.  Given the art style it feels pretty good.  There are ties to previous games (lots of lore on Taris for example).  If you want to go cron hunting you get to play Mario Brothers!  Sometimes that will even involve a partner.  

The worlds are constantly in motion around you.  Various factions will be in shootouts near exists etc,  ships will take off and sometimes explode depending on what quests players are doing etc.  There will even be neutral stuff you can attack if you like.    

[Numtini]

ow about the content itself, the mobs, the environments, the 'dungeons'? Are they rich enough to sustain engagement without the story lines of your character's quest? The reason I ask is because I believe that what makes or breaks an MMO is the depth of the world itself, regardless of how much your own toon's story is catered to.

I don't think there really is a world other than the quest storylines. The questlines are far more integrated into the game and it's far more on rails than WoW. One of the things that felt most breaking of immersion in the dungeons was that they were part of your storyline and if you wanted to repeat them, you took the quest a second time and do all the quest cutscenes.

[Pezzle]

You can repeat your storyline quests?  I have found the urge to repeat quests (heroics and flashpoints) minimal at best.  Sure I will help people get through them but repeating them for drops is a non issue.  You never need to repeat a quest for farm purposes.  Your time is better spent doing other things.  There is no repeat quest grinding for faction, for example.  

Even in areas with specific drops and commendations like the Esseles and Black Talon flashpoints there is no need to grind for anything there.  It is an option, one you will not suffer for ignoring.  Better gear is on the way.

Edit:

I should add that you do not need to repeat quests for xp either.  We have skipped most Heroic 4's while doing all the content on a planet and it puts us over the intended level.  I will be level 39-40 before finishing Balmorra (aside from bonus series, whatever level that is).  This puts me on the high end of the level range for the next planet.  There is plenty of xp available if you want to skip a few quests.

[Sky]

On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.

I thought it was a cool novelty. I found an artificer to make me a couple red crystals for my Dark Jedi asap, though. I'll take the stat hit for a red saber (+2 end vs +4 end). You can buy the yellow/black crystal on the space station but I'm not sure if it's restricted.

Kildorn, the commendation sabers for Knights was basically str-focused or end-focused, but also light/dark: four saber options. Armor is even more options because Guards wear heavy and Sents wear medium. I'm ok with lots of options!

My Knight is only level 16, have only seen a double-bladed dark saber drop (from the sith in the flashpoint). Bought my dark single saber from the commendation vendor and my dark gloves from the dark vendor.

Not sure what tactics you're using Merusk. I always open with force jump into the middle of the pack and then sweep to grab aggro (and stun and set up my free attack), don't really pay attention to R2 T7, but he always seems to do a force jump in next to me at some point. Been using the shadow chick since I got her, mostly because I'm in a tanking setup. The dps is nice, but would've liked a sage instead, I think.

Matt, Thrawn > Ackbar!

(edit) If it weren't a time-restricted test, I would've run the Esseles again. The boy (and girl) scouts I was with picked all the light side choices. As much as I really enjoyed the varied group, I ended up with the light side title for

[Ingmar]

Yeah the Esseles thing I wouldn't consider to be part of MY storyline. I mean, it has a story, yes, and it might be one that goes through the various flashpoints (that Grand Moff dude seems like a recurring sort of character).

[Ginaz]

Have they said how they plan to do the whole head start thing?  I won't be able to play on 20 Dec. since I'm going home for Christmas but I'd like to get in and at least down load the game and name my characters before I leave.  On the plus side, I'll have about 2 1/2 weeks off after I come back (I'm off work for a grand total of 30 days ).  Lots of time to catch up.

[Merusk]

This is made all the more damning every time I run into a Nautolan or Cathar or Togruta that can clearly speak perfectly good Galactic Basic. They're not completely outlandish - they're all bipedal, they have emotive faces - but whyever is it they chose the fucking Blue Man Group people Chiss over significantly more iconic races I will never work out.

Hate to say it but you're showing either your age or your lack of SW fandom.  The Chiss are in because they're ultra-badass in the EU and Thrawn is a very popular - if not iconic by now - character.  At least to the same level as Maul and the Zebra..zab...horn people.  I get that they picked the Miraluka because Vision was a KOTOR favorite, but, yeah, it's always been lame that they're just humans with veils.  I'm puzzled at the inclusion of the green-skinned folks who only ever appeared as one Jedi in EP2.  That Jedi isn't even featured that much in the cartoon series as far as I know.  Seems an odd choice over just about anything else.

I'll fully agree they should have picked a few non-human races, though.  Trandoshan and Wookiee at the very least if they HAVE to keep some part of the human vector because of their modeling skeletons. (I'm betting this human-body crap is because of the 3rd party engine stuff someone else mentioned.)  This is the type of bush league stuff we were expecting when we saw the failed devs from other MMOs being hired to form Bioware Austin.

Still, I have hopes we'll get some of the more interesting non-humans in time.

[kildorn]

How are you surprised that the Orions are in a Star Wars game? :P

[Velorath]

Tried out the Alderaan and Voidstar PVP Warzones for a while last night.  Not sure if or how it balances levels out since at level 12 I was in there with people that were a lot higher (highest I noticed was 27), but after I got the basics down it was pretty fun.  Thought it was nice that it rewarded me somehow for defending one of the capture points on Alderaan so I didn't feel like I was completely missing out while defending.  XP seemed to come pretty quickly, but that might have been due to constantly being on the winning side.  Seemed to me like a good way to level for a bit in order to bypass some quests, leaving them fresh when I go through with another character.

[Velorath]

A side note related to the alien races conversation going on, I think I'd go nuts if I teamed up in a Flashpoint with three characters who speak in alien gibberish.

[Merusk]

Not sure what tactics you're using Merusk. I always open with force jump into the middle of the pack and then sweep to grab aggro (and stun and set up my free attack), don't really pay attention to R2 T7, but he always seems to do a force jump in next to me at some point. Been using the shadow chick since I got her, mostly because I'm in a tanking setup. The dps is nice, but would've liked a sage instead, I think.

Well it was before I could pick an AC so that could be the difference.  Running in with him I found if I force-jumped then tried to sweep or force-push he'd already tossed out his taunt and drawn 2 of them off of me.. then he'd focus the one I was attacking and it was "run back to the bot, stabbing the generic attack button on the way"  I found it was less frustrating to just let him pull then jump in on them.

[koro]

Someone in the other thread indicated that system doesn't work as you level up anyway.  something about how raid gear (and I assume pvp gear) would need to be used instead because mods can't come close to their stats.

If you can keep your mods updated, you can use any moddable gear for pretty much your entire leveling career; if you're lucky, you can find a lowish-level craftable armor set you like the look of and pay a crafter an arm and a leg to craft you up a purple quality set of it, which should make it all moddable.

I think what Bioware's said - and looking at the raiding tier gear on vendors seems to corroborate it - is that they want crafted/modded items to be the go-to stuff up until level cap, where you then use a crafted set to get into raiding. After that, it's the incredibly hideous tier gear or bust. Hopefully the mods in the tier gear that comprise its stats can be removed and slapped into something less WoW Shoulderpad-y.

[kildorn]

So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

[Sobelius]

If you can keep your mods updated, you can use any moddable gear for pretty much your entire leveling career; if you're lucky, you can find a lowish-level craftable armor set you like the look of and pay a crafter an arm and a leg to craft you up a purple quality set of it, which should make it all moddable.

But isn't the base rating/AC of a modifiable piece of armor fixed? What good is swapping out a mod if my level 10 armor is still level 10 in terms of its base numbers?

[Fordel]

Nope, mods increase that stuff. There are specific Armor/DMG mods for it.

Sometimes the display will lag and you will have move the item around in your inventory once or twice to see the new values.

[Ingmar]

So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

[Pezzle]

Well, there might be some variables in it based on the items level and quality.  Items with 3 empty mod slots will still have a base AC, not all empty items are equal

[Fordel]

So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

Nope, though when you craft a suit of armor, it comes with its own mods last I checked.

[jakonovski]

So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

[Lucas]

I'm quite interested to read the inevitable "post-lauch plans" announcement that will be posted on the official website/forums sometime after the 20th of December.

Yes, first we'll surely get the usual slew of hotfixes, but afterwards, what do you think Bioware is planning?

- Of course, take more operations/flashpoints/BGs for granted. But beside these things?

[Furiously]

Space combat revamp will be high on that list I hope.

[luckton]

So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

Depending on when you pre-ordered, you could get in as early as 12/15 and as late as 12/20  

[Ingmar]

So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

The amount of early access you get is determined by how early you pre-ordered, up to a maximum of 5 days early. It is hard to speculate at this point where a new pre-order might get to start.

[Sjofn]

That's why I'm all in on Empire if I pick it up. Star Wars is stupid and goofy. It is, sorry. So while the Republic is all trying to be grave and serious about good guys and such, the Empire stuff is just over the top, campy, Hammer Horror fun. Everything Empire I've done revels in the goofiness of the entire thing.

I'm curious how camp evil it is. They're pretty much Space Nazi evil from the republic side's quests, but I just got the feeling they were.. racist idiots from the Sith starter area side. I also couldn't tell if the racist idiots in /general were just in character or not. :P

Some of it it campy, some of it is "Dude what? Those are my choices? Hnnngh!" when you're someone who could barely play through as a renegade in ME2 once. The inquisitor, though, seems to know exactly what sort of universe s/he is in, and it is fucking delightful.

[koro]

So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

Nope, though when you craft a suit of armor, it comes with its own mods last I checked.

Only if the armor is of certain quality, usually purple (which takes a shitload of time and expensive resources to grind out the schematic for). Everything of lower quality is pre-statted with normal stuff.

You also can't craft any lightsaber models, so your only option is to find a hilt you like the look and sound of and upgrade that.

The way things are laid out is this:

• Synthweavers make standard armor (chest, head, legs, hands, feet, wrists) of all three proficiencies (light/med/heavy) for all Force users.
• Artificers make color crystals (which are used in all weapons, not just lightsabers), lightsaber hilts (the item mod which alters the base damage and stats of a saber, not the equippable weapon itself), Enhancement mods for all items (they're the baseline +endurance stuff), and all non-weapon off-hand items (shield generators for each tanking class, non-shield power generators for the DPS specs of each tanking class, healer generators/foci, etc.).
• Armormechs are like Synthweavers, except they make medium/heavy armor filling the same slots for the two non-Force classes.
• Cybertechs make earpiece gear for all classes and specs, all Droid armor (which is otherwise extremely expensive/difficult/impossible to get), Armoring mods (which boost the base Armor and stats of moddable armor) for all classes, and Modification mods for all moddable items (which further provide extra stats and go in every item from a lightsaber to a pair of boots).
• Armstechs make all blasters, vibroswords (which practically nobody in their right mind will ever use, except for the maybe two companions who tank with them), and blaster barrels, which upgrade blaster base damage.
• Biochemists make extremely powerful medpacs (including awesome ones that you can use on other party members), stat-boosting stims, and Implant slot items for all classes.

[jakonovski]

So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

The amount of early access you get is determined by how early you pre-ordered, up to a maximum of 5 days early. It is hard to speculate at this point where a new pre-order might get to start.

Fuck, this game does its absolute best to make me not buy it. I will though, but no point in preordering.

[Simond]

I'm quite interested to read the inevitable "post-lauch plans" announcement that will be posted on the official website/forums sometime after the 20th of December.

Yes, first we'll surely get the usual slew of hotfixes, but afterwards, what do you think Bioware is planning?

- Of course, take more operations/flashpoints/BGs for granted. But beside these things?

- A better UI/add-on functionality.
- Filling the inevitable gaps in mid-to-high level levelling content.
- Nerfs to that one awesome spec that everyone plays.
- An xp nerf.
- Nerfs to crafted gear.
- Getting the anti-clownsuit button working again.
- Nerfs to non-clownsuit items.

[koro]

My girlfriend is convinced that EA is going to make Bioware put the anti-clown-suit button back in only if they charge for its use via RMT.

No particular reason she feels that way, but she has that sinking feeling.

[jakonovski]

Ok, what's the anti-clownsuit button?

[Bungee]

Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?

It certainly made me more likely to start playing wow again.... 

[Fordel]

Ok, what's the anti-clownsuit button?

There is/was/will be again a little option in the social preference menu, that let you auto colormatch your armor to your breastplates color. They turned it off for Beta so they could get actual feedback on how the armor pieces actually look with that option off, since just about *everyone* turns that option on and never looks back.


So say I'm a Trooper with a orange helmet, green chest, purple pants and blue boots. With this little toggle option on, all of my armor would be green. Same models and paint patterns, but with a uniform shade of green to match my breastplate's green. It REALLY smoothed out the whole clownsuit issue. An appearance tab is obviously still the better option in the long run, but this little toggle made it so I didn't hate myself every time I got a new upgrade.