MMO Subs are a dead model - John Smedley

[Mrbloodworth]

lolz.

[DLRiley]

Not all MT games are P2Win.

Naive child. Just like cable never going to have commercials, right?

 

[Dark_MadMax]

Here is another point to consider - how MT games ever going to support competitive PvP or Raiding? Pay 2 Win not going to fly with ether of these crowds.

Uhh. LoL is as competitive PvP as it gets (their tourneys are serious buzznss!). 100% MT based.  Asian games  like to use pay2win systems, but its not the only model

[Paelos]

Have any of you people who think F2P is a disaster even played Puzzle Pirates?

If you haven't, play it, and then tell me you think that they have an awful, flawed design that will never make money and always piss off the fans.

[DLRiley]

Here is another point to consider - how MT games ever going to support competitive PvP or Raiding? Pay 2 Win not going to fly with ether of these crowds.

Uhh. LoL is as competitive PvP as it gets (their tourneys are serious buzznss!). 100% MT based.  Asian games  like to use pay2win systems, but its not the only model

Actually speaking from the prospective of someone who has played plenty if f2p games and seen the ones that crash and burn... the pay to win pvp games always end up closing within a year of launching.

[HaemishM]

Here is another point to consider - how MT games ever going to support competitive PvP or Raiding? Pay 2 Win not going to fly with ether of these crowds.

The entire F2P market says you are wrong. And it's a large goddamn market.

League of Legends is a Micro-transaction game, based almost solely on competitive PVP. It's doing quite well.

[Ingmar]

Have any of you people who think F2P is a disaster even played Puzzle Pirates?

If you haven't, play it, and then tell me you think that they have an awful, flawed design that will never make money and always piss off the fans.

I actually don't care much for the way Puzzle Pirates does it personally, but certainly I can't say it isn't successful or that people generally don't like it.

[Paelos]

I actually don't care much for the way Puzzle Pirates does it

[Ingmar]

What can I say, I don't like spending real money on stuff that expires. It doesn't feel good to me. I realize that ultimately it isn't especially different than a sub fee, but that's not always in my face reminding me.

[Mrbloodworth]

Subs expire too.

[Ingmar]

Subs expire too.

Yes, I covered that in my 3rd sentence. Consumer psychology matters as much as anything in this.

It just feels different when my sword breaks and I have to buy another one with real money than when my access runs out and I have to resubscribe, even though it's not especially functionally different.

[Numtini]

I don't like F2P elements that involve expiration based on a linear time limit. To me, the advantage of free to play is I don't have to make the most of it while my subscription is on. I don't have to feel like I'm wasting money if I don't play. While I love the game, I generally don't pay for premium in WoT for exactly this reason. But then I don't have to. I don't really have an issue with YPP because all the wear there is based on days I actually log in. So my 30 day pirate badge lasts like a year.

[Amaron]

Ok while I'm taking you seriously please give us an example of one of your highly anticipated games that will cost you 40 a month.

If SWTOR was setup as an F2P I'd have to spend 40 a month on it to enjoy it fully.   I've spent roughly 40 a month over 2 months so far on LoL.   I won't play LoL forever though so that's fine with me.   Did I have to spend that money on LoL?  Of course not but calling it free when IP grinding is slow as a snail is BS.

[sinij]

 I've spent roughly 40 a month over 2 months so far on LoL.  Calling it free when IP grinding is slow as a snail is BS.

MT design ideology is to keep most players annoyed for longest possible time before they quit in frustration by designing barely-tolerable experience to encourage MT use to get around cock blocks .

Working as intended.

[DLRiley]

 I've spent roughly 40 a month over 2 months so far on LoL.  Calling it free when IP grinding is slow as a snail is BS.

MT design ideology is to keep most players annoyed for longest possible time before they quit in frustration by designing barely-tolerable experience to encourage MT use to get around cock blocks .

Working as intended.

For the lolz, if LoL was an subscription mmo you would be expected to play master yi, annie, or nunu until you unlocked tryndemere, ryze, or gargas 3 months later. Yes LoL is grindy but the amount of champions you want to play verse the amount of champions you have peaks at 5, which unless you waste your IP on level 2 runes you should have by 30. Oh and there is free rotation. But yes I broke down the numbers to keep up with LoLs two champs every month goal a long time ago and its "really" no different than the months of time wasted grinding through levels, than grinding through equipment to grind the dungeon that gives the better equipment to grind that dunegon for better equipment. In fact your not even considered competitive in any mmo unless you sunk a half a year worth of play time being non casual. So GG.

Oh and dominion gives shit IP, dominion only players are going to crying once the new 6300k champ comes out and they only managed 1k gold.

[Amaron]

But yes I broke down the numbers to keep up with LoLs two champs every month goal a long time ago and its "really" no different than the months of time wasted grinding through levels, than grinding through equipment to grind the dungeon that gives the better equipment to grind that dunegon for better equipment.

I think you're confusing me and Sinji's arguments.   He didn't say anything about MMO's.    My comments are based on MMO's and my example is a full blown F2P SWTOR not LoL.

[Paelos]

So are we getting Sinij and DLRiley collectively trolling the thread?

[Sky]

So are we getting Sinij and DLRiley collectively trolling the thread?

Just need Dark_MadMax to complete the troll triumvirate...again.

[sinij]

I just noticed DX3 offering DLCs of super gun + 10,000 credits. While this money-grab is laughable in a single player, you are crazy to think that it will be any different in mmorpgs.

Vorpal Sword of Win, 5 durability, cannot be repaired, $5.99 in a cash shop or 0.00001% chance of drop from a Monstrous Never There rare spawn.

[Mrbloodworth]

DX3?

[kildorn]

DX3?

Deus Ex: HR.

But what he's actually talking about is the "unlock a preorder bonus via DLC" thing that everyone's doing these days. One of the preorder bonuses was 10k credits and two weapons. Though I don't know what he means by god weapon, since that pack's weapons are rather shitty compared to the other one (the explosives thing)

[Hawkbit]

The simple answer:  If DLC is not worth it to you, don't fucking buy it.  I would love it if games were complete these days, but that doesn't seem like something that is bound to change.  As a a nearly-OCD collector of games, I actually like the "money-grab" option of buying preorder DLC that I didn't get.   At least they get to make a few extra bucks and I get to complete my set.  I get really peeved when a game has DLC I can't get...

[Fabnusen]

Respectfully, I disagree.

Flat out, if you make it, and it's good, people will pay for it. That's the thing; what's coming out is purely derivative. It might be shinier, slicker, etc. but it’s still the same old yarn. Roll a toon, level up/gain skills/some goal to strive for by killing things or running errands  and repeat. “End games”? The same, but for gear or trophies.

Of course smed thinks subscription models are dead. SOE can’t make games large amounts of people are willing to pay for. Let’s face it, F2P games came about because the product wasn’t good enough to outright charge for. It’s crazy. What car company would simply give you a car, hoping you might buy tires from them?

[HaemishM]

What car company would simply give you a car, hoping you might buy tires from them?

None. But a ton of car companies will give you a base model for X (in your analogy, free) and sell you better tires, warranties, gear shift knobs and other bits and bobs.

[Fabnusen]

What car company would simply give you a car, hoping you might buy tires from them?

None. But a ton of car companies will give you a base model for X (in your analogy, free) and sell you better tires, warranties, gear shift knobs and other bits and bobs.

Fair point and well taken.

[sinij]

Of course smed thinks subscription models are dead. SOE can’t make games large amounts of people are willing to pay for.

Exactly. Thrashing of a dead company run by another has-been.

 Problem is that someone might believe his self-serving BS and spoil otherwise perfectly good project for no reason.

[sinij]

What car company would simply give you a car, hoping you might buy tires from them?

None. But a ton of car companies will give you a base model for X (in your analogy, free) and sell you better tires, warranties, gear shift knobs and other bits and bobs.

 

Base model of a car is 100% functional, it performs its function of getting from point A to point B just as advertised. F2P is like selling a car without seats or brakes, while you get something it is not functional product until you buy extras.

[Ingmar]

You've never actually played a F2P game, have you.

[UnSub]

Flat out, if you make it, and it's good, people will pay for it.

There's a widely held assumption that quality will out, but that isn't the whole story. There are plenty of examples of good games not selling enough to keep the studio open, or that the game is good, but not good enough to hold enough subscribers versus the competition.

The pure sub model (again, which is really the box fee + sub model) is ending because there are too many competitors out there to play. For that $15 a month, you have to not only be good at launch, you have to be as good as other titles that have been developing for years. You can try to charge less than that $15, but then you have to attract more players and it isn't clear that a $10 sub fee is substantively different than the $15 sub fee in the minds of MMO players.

Again, most MMO players aren't going to have 3 or 4 subs running at once - they'll have 1, maybe 2. As a developer, if you don't have the best or second best game on the market, you aren't going to keep subs and will have to start firing people. As a F2P, you can get a buck or two a month from a mass of players who aren't willing to invest the full $15 per month.

[Malakili]

Flat out, if you make it, and it's good, people will pay for it. That's the thing; what's coming out is purely derivative. It might be shinier, slicker, etc. but it’s still the same old yarn. Roll a toon, level up/gain skills/some goal to strive for by killing things or running errands  and repeat. “End games”? The same, but for gear or trophies.

Its not a matter of just being good though.  It has to be BETTER than other MMOs you are playing or might want to play, and it has likely has to be better not just by a little, but by enough that you are willing to abandon 1000s of hours spent in another MMO to start fresh.  Now starting fresh is nice, and I know a lot of folks around here like that getting in on the ground floor and starting a new MMO thing (myself included), but at the same time, I'm not necessarily going to shell out 50 bucks for an MMO I might play for a month, I just won't.  

But Malakili, I hear you saying, you just bought Deus Ex 3 fo 50 bucks and you didn't play that for months on end.  Quite correct, but MMos don't work the same way.  Its fun to *be a player* of an MMO, as much as it is to actually sit down and play the game.  That means its fun to theorycraft, its fun to be a part of the long term development of the game, and its fun to learn the meta game and plot our you skills and gear, but all of that stuff generally is best in a long term commitment to the game.  So if I don't think I'm going to stick around for that part, I don't generally see the point of playing just for the first month even if it would be kind of "fun."  The point being that it in that first month I might not even get to the parts of an MMO that I really enjoy, or learn enough about the game to enjoy the meta game, etc.  Especially compared to a game I've been playing for a long time already.

[Mrbloodworth]

You've never actually played a F2P game, have you.

This.

[Kageru]

How can their be too many subscription MMO's out there when WoW has reigned unchallenged for so long? It would be just as easy to say that F2P is trying to find a niche without challenging, or even requiring the same polish and content, as a triple-A title like WoW or SWTOR.  Which is why most of the f2p MMO's are either faded titles or fairly shallow. I can't think of a serious challenger to those games that was released with a ftp pay model. Same in Asia where even with a profusion of f2p titles the big guns like FF and Lineage 2 are still subscription.

Basically if the game isn't going to have long term appeal, can't compete with the big-guns, and isn't doing anything novel enough to sell on that basis then they need to consider a low-energy F2p lifestyle from the design phase forward. Suggesting there are not going to be big name MMO titles in the future assumes no one wants to inherit wow's money throne. Which seems unlikely.

[sinij]

Its not a matter of just being good though.  It has to be BETTER than other MMOs you are playing or might want to play, and it has likely has to be better

Market demands progress? Oh the horror! Sky is falling. What do you mean we can't just clone DIKU yet another time?!

[sinij]

You've never actually played a F2P game, have you.

This.

You can't address my points directly so you went for good old credibility smear.

Here is idea for you - stop cloning DIKU and start designing games, leave cloning projects where they belong - civil engineering, subdivision planning. Fucking packaged goods "developers".

Basically if the game isn't going to have long term appeal, can't compete with the big-guns, and isn't doing anything novel enough to sell on that basis then they need to consider a low-energy...

Industry spent last DECADE stagnating and trying to out-clone each others DIKU clone. Well, now it caught up to them - it got so design-by-formula that you can't differentiate your product enough to sell it. What the solution they came up with? KEEP ON CLONING!

[Paelos]

So since you can't address the F2P question, so you talk out of your ass some more? I hear Mark Jacobs has a new gaming company looking for people...