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Author Topic: 1.5: Let's give this one more hurrah...  (Read 19899 times)
Shatter
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Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 10:42:35 AM

Have you played another class in endgame pvp?  The problem with giving stealthers so much power is that they can kill any non-rank 8 target before stuns wear off.  They can do this with impunity.  While that may be a lot of fun for the rogue, it sucks for any other class.  Having played mage, rogue, and cleric in endgame pvp I can tell you that rogue stealthers, particularly those above rank 6, are already plenty deadly when played well.  If they get much more powerful, good players will dominate pvp just as well-played warriors already dominate.  Rogue stuns being able to be used simultaneously will make them ridiculously powerful at higher rank. 



Not sure what game you play and yes I also play a cleric, rank 4.  My cleric even at rank 4 is stupid hard to kill, usually takes 2-3 people and / or a high rank DPS player.  A rank 6 rogue cant kill a rank 6 cleric because the cleric has 1000 valor(40% dmg reduction), retarded HP and infinite heals.  A rank 6 rogue cant kill a rank 6 warrior because they have 1000 valor(40% dmg reduction) + high armor + full self heal, block block block, etc.  Rogues needed a buff, they dont scale as well at higher levels as clerics and warriors do.  Clerics continue to benefit from valor moreso then any other class and warriors get retarded high armor + valor that reduces our dmg down to half normal or less. 
Shatter
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Reply #36 on: September 15, 2011, 10:46:00 AM

Stuns? are you playing the right game? I play a warrior, clerics are unkillable and rogues are free health potions waiting to happen.  They needed major buffs.

My mage is rank 7 (almost 8), my two clerics are rank 3, my rogue is rank 3.  I am always top 3 in wf's for damage and kb's on my rogue and it's stupid easy to get compared to my mage.  Then again, I only play MM since rogues are too squishy to play melee.  A well-played high rank rogue can kill my rank 3 cleric without issue if my timers are down.  They have two stuns that they can use back to back.  I don't recall the names off hand.  My mage deals with the same issue, but has more timers and better gear so they aren't an issue.

I agree that rogues are underpowered compared to warriors at rank 8, but that's how it should be.  Warriors can't stealth or vanish. 

Rogues get stealth, warriors get plate..I think maybe you forgot so just reminder :P 
luckton
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Reply #37 on: September 15, 2011, 10:50:44 AM

I like how they nerfed cross-armor fitting for Warriors wearing leather and Clerics wearing cloth  awesome, for real

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Nebu
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Reply #38 on: September 15, 2011, 11:30:42 AM

Rogues get stealth, warriors get plate..I think maybe you forgot so just reminder :P 

Solid troll attempt.  I'll check back occasionally just in case you want to discuss something.


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Threash
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Reply #39 on: September 15, 2011, 11:35:47 AM

By all means lets continue the discussion of how rogues deserve to suck because one of their souls has a 32 point vanish.

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Nebu
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Reply #40 on: September 15, 2011, 11:41:32 AM

By all means lets continue the discussion of how rogues deserve to suck because one of their souls has a 32 point vanish.

What rank is your rogue?  

I think this becomes a philosophical debate.  I happen to think that a rank 8 rogue shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with a rank 8 warrior in melee.  That's not what they're built for. Rogues can disrupt healers, can drop dps mages in a heartbeat, and kill other rogues.  That's their perceived role in a wf.   Rock-paper-scissors is a very common balancing scheme in mmo pvp.  

I also encourage you to play the other classes.  It's pretty interesting to see things from the other perspective.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 11:43:27 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #41 on: September 15, 2011, 11:45:15 AM

Dam, never knew Warriors should come with a Win button
Nebu
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Reply #42 on: September 15, 2011, 11:45:40 AM

Dam, never knew Warriors should come with a Win button

You're on a roll.  

I kill warriors all the time.  I do it with a ranged spec.  I do agree that warriors need some adjustments.  I just don't think melee damage is the problem that I have with them. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 11:48:48 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #43 on: September 15, 2011, 12:01:08 PM

Dam, never knew Warriors should come with a Win button

You're on a roll.  

I kill warriors all the time.  I do it with a ranged spec.  I do agree that warriors need some adjustments.  I just don't think melee damage is the problem that I have with them. 

The point is warriors surpass some threshold once they achieve a certain rank / gear level where they enter some secret club of uberness and the only classes allowed in are clerics and warriors. 
Nebu
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Reply #44 on: September 15, 2011, 12:08:23 PM

The point is warriors surpass some threshold once they achieve a certain rank / gear level where they enter some secret club of uberness and the only classes allowed in are clerics and warriors. 

My solution is to fix warriors, not make other classes more powerful. 

What's your issue with clerics?  The only thing I don't like is that they will always win a drawn out 1v1 if specced correctly and played well.  The game isn't about 1v1 balance.  It's about team vs team balance and both teams have access to identical classes. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nebu
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Reply #45 on: September 15, 2011, 12:22:25 PM

For what it's worth, it looks like Bloodthirsty is getting a serious nerf.  That will do a bit to decrease the power of warriors, particularly in high kill wf's. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #46 on: September 15, 2011, 01:27:35 PM

The rogue changes concern me with regard to pvp.  Rogues already have the ability to pick their fights and escape when they don't see an outcome they like.  I think that rogues should have to make the hard decision between high dps and stealth, not have both.  If you get to pick fights and escape with stealth, then this should come at the cost of dps.  

On the bright side, playing my MM is going to be laughably easy.  I was killing rank 6+ players at rank 3.  If they up my dps even more, kiting morons will be stupid easy.  

Don't worry the high dps builds don't even get slip away.  And unless Rogues were going up against someone not in a PVP spec and had no PVP gear on, the rogue was probably losing.

Rogues were crap in warfronts or any other group oriented pvp.

Edit:
More to add.  Rogues can not kill clerics or mages, unless it's some open world vs. a noob bullshit.  I can get top damage in WFs with my PVE gear easily but I don't actually kill anyone.  Essentially I just tab until I find a target that has low max hps, which meant no valor and just attacked them. 

There were some WFs where the other side had a ton of high rank players and I would do a ton of damage, but that ton of damage was easily healed by a single cleric doing AOE heals.

I'm not sure we're playing the same game here.  Rogue's Slip Away is on a 2 minute cooldown.  So every two minutes the rogue can get away IF the rogue has other cooldowns to remove DOTs.  If he doesn't, then he pops out of stealth after the immunity.

It's silly really.  Rogues have 7 other souls, to say Rogues should have shit damage, mitigation and survability vs. a Warrior because of a single ability on a 2m cooldown is ludicrous.

Now if I could get Slip Away on a 10 second cooldown, sure. But c'mon.  Rogues don't have enough burst to double stun kill someone with over 6k hps and some valor.  That never happens unless you're going up against someone with crap gear, PVE spec, or afk.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 01:35:42 PM by Draegan »
Shatter
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Reply #47 on: September 15, 2011, 01:44:39 PM

Dont think Nebu is playing the same Rift as we are Draegan
Nebu
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Reply #48 on: September 15, 2011, 02:02:15 PM

Dont think Nebu is playing the same Rift as we are Draegan

I think we approach pvp MMO's differently.  You should also know that Draegan has admitted that he isn't into PvP. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

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Nebu
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Reply #49 on: September 15, 2011, 02:09:33 PM

It's silly really.  Rogues have 7 other souls, to say Rogues should have shit damage, mitigation and survability vs. a Warrior because of a single ability on a 2m cooldown is ludicrous.

I didn't say that.  I said that a rogue should expect to lose a toe-to-toe melee battle with a warrior.  Warriors are meant to be the kings of melee.  That's why they lack the finesse tools that rogues have.  The job of stealth is to allow a rogue to pick off high dps targets on the fringe and cause trouble to healers on the fringe.  Rogues have been in pvp MMOs primarily to negate high dps ranged classes.  That's what the stealth was given to them for.  It's a means to close the distance gap on ranged classes.  

Slip away is a tool that should allow a rogue to get out of Dodge and not a tool used to reapply attacks from stealth.  It was very poorly implemented.  

I've played my rogue a lot and it does very well in the wf's, even at low rank.  I refuse to play melee at low rank because there's no reason to.  I can kill more effectively at range or bring more to the group by being a bard.  To be 100% fair, my knowledge of high rank melee rogues comes from being on the receiving end of them.  The well-played ones do just fine.  

Are you suggesting that rogues should be equal to warriors and have stealth?  That would ruin the game, especially for anyone of lower rank.  The WF's would be filled with hordes of rogues killing people in a few GCD's after unstealthing.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

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Shatter
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Reply #50 on: September 15, 2011, 02:13:16 PM

Dont think Nebu is playing the same Rift as we are Draegan

I think we approach pvp MMO's differently.  You should also know that Draegan has admitted that he isn't into PvP. 

As of late I have to be far too selective with my targets.  I look at HP, gear, etc and know if I will win a fight or not before it starts.  Not saying as a rank 6 rogue with full rank 6 gear that I should beat everyone, but I shouldnt have to cower knowing I cant beat a cleric or warrior whos rank 6 as well.  I know I wont beat them without using slip away and with it there is a slim chance.  Of course this is dependent on what their spec is, etc but most go cookie cutter and have the best PvP specs if they are in warfronts.  Ideally what you and I think of all of this is illrelevent, Trion in their own words said what I am telling you, they recognized the issue and decided to buff rogues to correct it and fact is they are correct, rogues need a buff.  Nerfign warriors isnt a great solution because a lot of the rogue problems come from stupid mechanics which they are also correcting...ie rangers / marksman who do better dmg standing still.
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Reply #51 on: September 15, 2011, 02:23:43 PM

How do you think that mages do against a rank 8 war or cleric?  We don't have stealth.  If I exploit broken dominator mechanics, I can do it but I refuse to play a dom spec.  Storm is a pretty strong spec for dps, but the survivability is terrible.  Necro relies on a pet that warriors treat as a free heal (bloodthirsty).  That leaves two specs a mage can play without relying on a dedicated cleric: full chloro or a chloro/lock.  Full lock isn't terrible either, but much of that comes from the fact that archmage is an overpowered soul once you hit rank 5.  

This is why I play a MM.  I can kite better, do more damage, and have far more escape tools.  Having played a mage since beta, I feel like rogues are more effective and easier to play (from range). The only reason I play my mage anymore is because some premade is farming the BG and my mage can do a much better job of surviving against the well-disciplined warrior trains.  


FWIW: I enjoy discussing this stuff.  Can we dispense with the mud slinging and just talk mechanics?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 02:25:23 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #52 on: September 15, 2011, 03:31:17 PM

I played range for a while but even with the latest rogue class improvements they arent that great.  I am actually looking forward to the new rogue ranged class changes, would be nice to go back to it from melee.  Im tired of doing the weekend Whitefall which is a giant zerg most of the time and melee(other then warriors) get stomped. 
Draegan
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Reply #53 on: September 15, 2011, 03:50:40 PM

It's silly really.  Rogues have 7 other souls, to say Rogues should have shit damage, mitigation and survability vs. a Warrior because of a single ability on a 2m cooldown is ludicrous.

I didn't say that.  I said that a rogue should expect to lose a toe-to-toe melee battle with a warrior.  Warriors are meant to be the kings of melee.  That's why they lack the finesse tools that rogues have.  The job of stealth is to allow a rogue to pick off high dps targets on the fringe and cause trouble to healers on the fringe.  Rogues have been in pvp MMOs primarily to negate high dps ranged classes.  That's what the stealth was given to them for.  It's a means to close the distance gap on ranged classes.  

Slip away is a tool that should allow a rogue to get out of Dodge and not a tool used to reapply attacks from stealth.  It was very poorly implemented.  

I've played my rogue a lot and it does very well in the wf's, even at low rank.  I refuse to play melee at low rank because there's no reason to.  I can kill more effectively at range or bring more to the group by being a bard.  To be 100% fair, my knowledge of high rank melee rogues comes from being on the receiving end of them.  The well-played ones do just fine.  

Are you suggesting that rogues should be equal to warriors and have stealth?  That would ruin the game, especially for anyone of lower rank.  The WF's would be filled with hordes of rogues killing people in a few GCD's after unstealthing.  

The Rogue calling has one soul with permanent stealth.  One.  So the whole calling should be balanced off of that?  So the only build that Rogues should have to fight with is with at least 32 pts in Assassin?

Being able to disappear during combat every 2 minutes is really not that overpowered at all, considering no one will die in any sort of competitive PVP area. 

Am I suggesting Rogues should be equal to warriors in melee? Yes.  Should the have stealth?  Why not.  Warriors have everything Rogues have except stealth and are better.

Warrior shave more dps, more survivability, more hps, more armor, more burst damage (not in 1.5 maybe).  Better mitigation, better healing.   Alot of this change sin 1.5, but still, how does all that balance against Rogues being able to go back into stealth every 2 minutes?

Like I said, I played in WFs a lot before I realized I was terrible as a Rogue in them.  I very often got tons of damage numbers plunking away at range.  I just never really killed anyone or actually did anything that mattered.  My damage was very low, and my surviability was nothing.

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Reply #54 on: September 15, 2011, 04:14:44 PM

We agree more than we disagree, Draegan.  I think warriors are out of balance.  They have too many tools and pay too little for them.  I think they need to be toned down and ALL of the classes need to have more clear exchanges between DPS, survivability, and utility.  If you're high dps, you should have low survivability.  Glass cannons should exist in all 4 callings.  If you want tools and survivability, then pay for them with damage.  

Stealth grants initiative.  It's a very difficult thing to balance.  For that reason, I've always been strongly against its existence in pvp games.  You just can't balance one class always getting to attack first.  Just look at chess.  If two players are equal in ability, white will win or draw the majority of the time.  Giving them stealth and two stuns that can be used one after the other is just poor design in a pvp setting.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #55 on: September 15, 2011, 05:32:10 PM


Stealth grants initiative.  It's a very difficult thing to balance.  For that reason, I've always been strongly against its existence in pvp games.  You just can't balance one class always getting to attack first.  Just look at chess.  If two players are equal in ability, white will win or draw the majority of the time.  Giving them stealth and two stuns that can be used one after the other is just poor design in a pvp setting.

That much I agree with but it is what it is.  However as Draegan said a rogue cant come out of stealth and stun / CC any class to death who is Rank 3-4 geared or higher.  Newbs..yes.  Like I said before, warriors and clerics when they reach rank 5-6 gear level become very difficult to kill for a rogue which means rank 7-8 geared clerics and warriors are near impossible for a rogue to kill.  The whole stealth dynamic no longer helps the rogue anymore then.  This is what Trion has realized and why they made the change
Nebu
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Reply #56 on: September 16, 2011, 07:26:23 AM

That much I agree with but it is what it is.  However as Draegan said a rogue cant come out of stealth and stun / CC any class to death who is Rank 3-4 geared or higher.  Newbs..yes.  Like I said before, warriors and clerics when they reach rank 5-6 gear level become very difficult to kill for a rogue which means rank 7-8 geared clerics and warriors are near impossible for a rogue to kill.  The whole stealth dynamic no longer helps the rogue anymore then.  This is what Trion has realized and why they made the change

Do you not see how this exacerbates the current problem?

1) Low rank players don't find pvp fun because they get killed in a couple of GCDs.

2)
Quote
However as Draegan said a rogue cant come out of stealth and stun / CC any class to death who is Rank 3-4 geared or higher.  Newbs..yes.
 

If you make rogues more potent, then they will be able to pop out of stealth and kill even higher rank toons before stun wears off.  See 1)

This goes back to my original assertion that rogues don't need more power, it's that melee clerics and warriors need less.  Low level players are dying too fast.  There's too great a power differential between rank 1 and rank 8.  It's causing the slow death of pvp in the game. The length of the pvp grind only adds to the problem.

I want balance in pvp, just as you both do.  What I don't want is for stealthers to have the ability to kill anyone without them having an opportunity to at least fight back.  A stealther shouldn't be able to do more than half of a person's health in damage before a stun wears off.  This goes for warriors with their charge or mages with their stuns as well.  At least with warriors and mages, you can see them coming and position yourself accordingly on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:30:14 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #57 on: September 16, 2011, 07:36:59 AM

Are we talking 1v1 here?  Silly argument if it is.

In WFs, going up against any average player, a Rogue does not have enough burst to kill anyone in a couple (2-3) GCD.

Stealth
Jagged Strike > Puncture > Impale
Slip Away
Assassinate > 2pt ability or builder x2 > Final Blow

That is the highest burst you can have and that is frontloading three DOTs.  If that player has any purge/heal/backup they won't die.

The only way a Rogue can kill a properly specced Warrior is to do the whole Jagged > Puncture > Impale > Slip Away and then reapply bleeds.  If the warrior doesn't have pots, or isn't a Paladin, the Warrior will always win.

Against a properly specced Mage (ChloroDomLock) a Rogue won't win unless the mage has no Mana.

Rogues can not kill a properly specced Cleric.

Rogue vs. Rogue is whatever.

Now you can come up with scenarios where you killed a lot of players.  They were either, under geared, poorly specced, or just bad.  An average PVP rogue against an average PVP cleric/warrior/mage will probably lose most of the time in a group setting.  The rogue is only useful for the passive Bard buffs or Eradicate spam from MM and a healing debuff which warriors have a better version of.

Rogue's need some help.

Shatter
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Reply #58 on: September 20, 2011, 05:08:40 AM

Draegan, what is your thoughts on the PTS rogue changes?  Personally not impressed.  Assasins seem to get a little better, cant tell if MM is making forward steps or backwards.  Other changes seem mediocre.  I think the idea that "people should fear seeing a rogue like they do a warrior" isnt going to happen with the proposed changes. 
Threash
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Reply #59 on: September 20, 2011, 07:00:21 AM

Marksman has been improved in dps, nerfed in burst. Assassins got buffed, bladedancers got buffed, nightblades got major survivability buffs, and most importantly for pvp riftstalker got dps viability making all those incredible mobility skills fair game without giving up killing potential. Also warriors ate the beef bat once again.

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Shatter
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Reply #60 on: September 20, 2011, 07:33:46 AM

Sounds promising but are rogues going to still have to take it in the no-go hole for DPS in order to get decent survivability still?  As for warriors they deserve the nerf bat especially after the BS I saw this weekend in Warfronts.  Keeping in mind I am almost a rank 7 rogue with full rank 6 pieces+ and in codex I went to vault with 3 other people and it was us 4 against a single warrior.  After about 1 minute of us beating on him we finally got him down.  Dont think he killed any of us but he would of if a healer hadnt been present.  Are rogues going to be that awesome after 1.5 cause I have doubts, warrior nerfs are welcome. 
Threash
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Reply #61 on: September 20, 2011, 08:47:04 AM

Also warriors ate the beef bat once again.

Holy motherfucking autocorrect Batman.  It does fit even though i meant nerf bat.  I haven't tested the changes myself, the only survivability benefit warriors have over rogues is shields and the ability to use a soul that mostly can ignore weapon damage as a damage source to go with it while the rogue upgrades are mostly in the self healing department and don't seem to cost any dps loss at all.

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Shatter
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Reply #62 on: September 20, 2011, 08:53:43 AM

Also warriors ate the beef bat once again.

Holy motherfucking autocorrect Batman.  It does fit even though i meant nerf bat.  I haven't tested the changes myself, the only survivability benefit warriors have over rogues is shields and the ability to use a soul that mostly can ignore weapon damage as a damage source to go with it while the rogue upgrades are mostly in the self healing department and don't seem to cost any dps loss at all.

Yeah I ignored the typo lol.  Warriors...not sure what tree....also get that dam full heal that isnt impacted by heal reduction skills.  Same warrior I mentioned above we got "dead' after 30 seconds until he self healed to full and the fight basically started over.  Pretty sure thats a skill not a pot since I havent seen a pot that heals to full.  Whats the timer on that anyone know? 
Nebu
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Reply #63 on: September 20, 2011, 09:06:44 AM

Warriors...not sure what tree....also get that dam full heal that isnt impacted by heal reduction skills.  Same warrior I mentioned above we got "dead' after 30 seconds until he self healed to full and the fight basically started over.  Pretty sure thats a skill not a pot since I havent seen a pot that heals to full.  Whats the timer on that anyone know? 

I think it's Touch of Life.  An 8 point paladin skill on a 10 min timer. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #64 on: September 20, 2011, 10:50:49 AM

Draegan, what is your thoughts on the PTS rogue changes?  Personally not impressed.  Assasins seem to get a little better, cant tell if MM is making forward steps or backwards.  Other changes seem mediocre.  I think the idea that "people should fear seeing a rogue like they do a warrior" isnt going to happen with the proposed changes.  

I don't know, with the current build on the PTS I can hit 2600 dps in BIS gear with some bard buffs and consumables.

I say that's an improvement.

There are some good ones, and some half assed ones, and Bards are still shit.  I like what I see though.

Get ready for the teleporting and backstabbing Assassin!

As for PVP, I haven't gotten a WF to open while I've been on testing stuff.  But check out a 32-36 ASN / 20 RS / 10 MM for PVE and that can by modified for PVP easily by taking points out of assassin and put into NB for felblades or infiltrator.  Or put 2 points into RS for run speed.

Key is to that spec is you're shifting every 10 seconds for +25% damage, a damage reflect shield, and increased run speed.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:54:00 AM by Draegan »
Threash
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Reply #65 on: September 20, 2011, 11:20:17 AM

And a buncha crit, unless they changed that.  You only get 15% damage from shifting, the other 10% is baseline for being in the dps stance.

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Sobelius
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Reply #66 on: September 20, 2011, 11:22:14 AM

Get ready for the teleporting and backstabbing Assassin!

I already do this in vanilla PvE, and like to do it in instances when practical. Nice to know it might be viable in PvP.

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Reply #67 on: September 20, 2011, 11:35:35 AM

Get ready for the teleporting and backstabbing Assassin!

I already do this in vanilla PvE, and like to do it in instances when practical. Nice to know it might be viable in PvP.

You can do it now, but it's terrible for dps.  Now it's fantastic for dps.
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Reply #68 on: September 20, 2011, 11:35:59 AM

And a buncha crit, unless they changed that.  You only get 15% damage from shifting, the other 10% is baseline for being in the dps stance.

Crit too.
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Reply #69 on: September 20, 2011, 12:23:07 PM

Draegan, what is your thoughts on the PTS rogue changes?  Personally not impressed.  Assasins seem to get a little better, cant tell if MM is making forward steps or backwards.  Other changes seem mediocre.  I think the idea that "people should fear seeing a rogue like they do a warrior" isnt going to happen with the proposed changes.  

I don't know, with the current build on the PTS I can hit 2600 dps in BIS gear with some bard buffs and consumables.

I say that's an improvement.

There are some good ones, and some half assed ones, and Bards are still shit.  I like what I see though.

Get ready for the teleporting and backstabbing Assassin!

As for PVP, I haven't gotten a WF to open while I've been on testing stuff.  But check out a 32-36 ASN / 20 RS / 10 MM for PVE and that can by modified for PVP easily by taking points out of assassin and put into NB for felblades or infiltrator.  Or put 2 points into RS for run speed.

Key is to that spec is you're shifting every 10 seconds for +25% damage, a damage reflect shield, and increased run speed.

Ive done that spec in PvP some months ago and like you said it wasnt great dmg anyhow so I went full assasin with Inf instead.  Maybe I'll respec to that again tonight to start getting back into the spec, thanks for the feedback.  And yes I agree Bards are still crap, not sure they ever plan to "fix" them adequately.  I get the impression they like them how they are.  However the horrible scaling they get from gear, etc only hurts more in PvP as more and more people get well geared.  Its sad that as a rank 6 rogue my cadence on mage targets often only does 60-80dmg(non-crit), nevermind the even worse dmg on warriors. 
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