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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  RIFT  |  Topic: 1.5: Let's give this one more hurrah... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: 1.5: Let's give this one more hurrah...  (Read 57527 times)
Nebu
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Reply #105 on: September 22, 2011, 09:37:49 AM

On a side note I was just looking at the rank 7/8 gear since im almost rank 7 and the jump from rank 6 to 7 on most pieces is a signifigant jump compared to rank 4 to 5 and rank 5 to 6.  No wonder rank 7 and 8 players are gods.  The rank 6 dagger has top end dmg of 79 with a DPS of 33.6, the rank 8 weapon is 105 with DPS of 44.7..dam

This is why I left Rift.  Weapon damage scaling is out of control in the warfronts.  I enjoy rolling alts and pvp'ing with the different classes.  You just get punished too hard for starting over, which is a shame.  Many of us enjoy rerolling and gearing alts as our endgame. 

Beyond that, I agree with Sky.  Rift exceeded my low expectations.  I loved the soul system.  I really enjoyed running dungeons with my friends (before they made them trivially easy).  I was happy to see a wardrobe system. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #106 on: September 22, 2011, 09:50:50 AM

Im not even sure how you balance having rank 6+ players and Rank 1's.  I guess a)  you separate them out warfront wise where you have ranks 1-4 and 5-8 or b) hand out rank 2 gear to new 50 players?  Then you do this and it pisses off the higher rank players since we had to earn it.  Give additional bolster to players rank 3 or less? 
Nebu
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Reply #107 on: September 22, 2011, 10:25:58 AM

Then you do this and it pisses off the higher rank players since we had to earn it. 

You get favor and prestige for losing.  Noone earns anything.  The power curve needs to be flattened.  The difference between a rank 8 player and a rank 1 player should be no more than a 10% power increase and significantly more utility.  Were I designing the pvp, I'd make the gear improvements significantly smaller and focus my attention on making multiple deep and interesting pvp souls for each class.  High rank players should have more options in combat... they don't need more power.  High rank players have had more practice.  Giving them more power just creates a win-more mechanic. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #108 on: September 22, 2011, 10:50:41 AM

The more you win, the weaker you get. You're so fucking good, play with a handicap.

March
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Reply #109 on: September 22, 2011, 11:03:40 AM

What meta game are you looking for?

Anything... I'm wide open on this one.

In fairness, it is possible that they envision the social media plug-ins to be a sort of meta-game... and for all I know it is wildly successful.  I could well imagine back in DAoC days how this sort of social media updates could have been used to stoke the Realm rivalries.  So perhaps it is flaming hot across the PvP servers; in which case I'll grant a point in their column on using social media to add layers to the metagame. 
Shatter
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Reply #110 on: September 22, 2011, 11:04:20 AM

Im just throwing out what I would expect the complaint to be, I personally would prefer more balanced PvP.  Its not fun for me to smash some rank 1 player as much as it isnt any fun to lose to high ranks of other classes repeatedly.  A similar instance of this is like when WOW or other games lower difficulty of X Dungeon, a bunch of people who did it "the hard way" will always complain.  I PvP because its just what I enjoy, there should be rewards of some sort but I would agree the difference in gear ranks (ie 1 compared to 6) is pretty ridiculous.  However in PvP you would also have to balance PvE geared players into the mix because their gear cant be signifigantly better either in the same scenario.
Rokal
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Reply #111 on: September 22, 2011, 01:15:51 PM

If there is a complaint, it is based on the public utterances that their Solo content is designed for Two people - which is a pretty crappy way to design solo content - and has nothing to do with being easy or hard.

This was the quote that you were responding to:

"Chronicles – Teams of two players (or one, if you’ve got the gear) can take on Rift Chronicles, exploring breathtaking dungeons — including Greenscale’s Blight, Hammerknell, and the Chronicles of Attunement—in fun, story-driven adventures! "

Not that it required a certain spec, but that some of the chronicles would be too hard to solo unless you had the gear for it. There is a solo path to obtain that gear.

It's likely that spec will be just as important, but imo that's understandable for a game that gives you 5 'soul roles' and is as open about how you spec as Rift is.
Sobelius
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Reply #112 on: September 22, 2011, 01:39:10 PM

Were I designing the pvp, I'd make the gear improvements significantly smaller and focus my attention on making multiple deep and interesting pvp souls for each class. 

Strongly agree. With such possibility in the Soul system why not have 8 PvP souls per class, why only 1? Might even make it easier to separate PvE and PvP skills such that the two rule sets don't interfere with each other.

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Draegan
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Reply #113 on: September 22, 2011, 02:26:44 PM

If there is a complaint, it is based on the public utterances that their Solo content is designed for Two people - which is a pretty crappy way to design solo content - and has nothing to do with being easy or hard.

This was the quote that you were responding to:

"Chronicles – Teams of two players (or one, if you’ve got the gear) can take on Rift Chronicles, exploring breathtaking dungeons — including Greenscale’s Blight, Hammerknell, and the Chronicles of Attunement—in fun, story-driven adventures! "

Not that it required a certain spec, but that some of the chronicles would be too hard to solo unless you had the gear for it. There is a solo path to obtain that gear.

It's likely that spec will be just as important, but imo that's understandable for a game that gives you 5 'soul roles' and is as open about how you spec as Rift is.

This.  They've always said solo/duo content, and never promised just solo content.  You just read solo and ran with it.    awesome, for real
March
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Reply #114 on: September 22, 2011, 03:15:22 PM

It is not I mis-reading anything... this was telegraphed well in advance.

Massively: Preview RIFT's Chronicles of Telara solo instance content on the PTS
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/01/preview-rifts-chronicles-of-telara-solo-instance-content-on-the/

Epic Toon (features a funny looking guy in a funnier hat): Solo content are not dumbed down raids in RIFT 1.5: Ashes of History
http://www.epictoon.com/blog/2011/08/31/rift-15-solo-content-dumbed-raids/

ZAM: Explore the new solo dungeon on Rift's Public Test Shard with ZAM! We'll take you on a video tour.
http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=27568

I didn't test it... so for all I know its a solo cake walk.  And as far as double speak goes, there's a big difference between solo content you can duo with your bro, and Duo content that you might be able to solo.

But, if it turns out that they flinched at the end and didn't want solo content to be soloable... yeah, that's a flinch.
Rasix
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Reply #115 on: September 22, 2011, 03:31:44 PM

 angry

-Rasix
Rokal
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Reply #116 on: September 22, 2011, 03:42:12 PM

It is not I mis-reading anything... this was telegraphed well in advance.
[links]

So your evidence that they designed solo content primarily around groups of two is 3 videos of people successfully soloing the Chronicles?

 Ohhhhh, I see.
March
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Reply #117 on: September 22, 2011, 04:27:51 PM

Precisely...   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I'm just confused by their message... I believe my original word was: alarmed.

After I go into the squeeze-machine and play the patch next week, I'm sure everything will be ok.
Ingmar
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Reply #118 on: September 22, 2011, 06:40:19 PM

To come to March's defense a bit, when I read "solo/duo content" which was bandied about a lot, I don't expect that to translate to "well you might be able to solo this duo content that we're giving you if you're awesome". I expect that to mean "here is some solo content, and here is also some duo content." Like LOTRO skirmishes.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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Phred
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Reply #119 on: September 22, 2011, 09:30:21 PM

To come to March's defense a bit, when I read "solo/duo content" which was bandied about a lot, I don't expect that to translate to "well you might be able to solo this duo content that we're giving you if you're awesome". I expect that to mean "here is some solo content, and here is also some duo content." Like LOTRO skirmishes.

Which barely qualify as a shining example of balancing. Where people avoid the duo skirmishes because they are insanely difficult compared to the solo ones. Appearantly balancing solo vs 2 ppl is harder than it seems.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 09:51:29 PM by Phred »
Shatter
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Reply #120 on: September 23, 2011, 08:02:12 AM

So Draegan, on a scale of 1 to 10 how retarded/useless is the Trion Rogue Dev?  No wonder rogues have sucked so long, f'ing idiot doesnt have a clue and most likely doesnt even play the dam class / game at all. 
Nebu
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Reply #121 on: September 23, 2011, 08:51:58 AM

So Draegan, on a scale of 1 to 10 how retarded/useless is the Trion Rogue Dev?  No wonder rogues have sucked so long, f'ing idiot doesnt have a clue and most likely doesnt even play the dam class / game at all. 

When I quit playing, rogues and warriors were the best pve dps in the game.  For some encounters, rogues were the best tanks in the game.  Did I miss something? 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #122 on: September 23, 2011, 08:54:11 AM

So Draegan, on a scale of 1 to 10 how retarded/useless is the Trion Rogue Dev?  No wonder rogues have sucked so long, f'ing idiot doesnt have a clue and most likely doesnt even play the dam class / game at all. 
I'm sure you'd do a much better job as the class lead.

Shatter
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Reply #123 on: September 23, 2011, 08:55:03 AM

So Draegan, on a scale of 1 to 10 how retarded/useless is the Trion Rogue Dev?  No wonder rogues have sucked so long, f'ing idiot doesnt have a clue and most likely doesnt even play the dam class / game at all. 
I'm sure you'd do a much better job as the class lead.

At least I know what specs to run for DPS evaluations :P
Nebu
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Reply #124 on: September 23, 2011, 08:59:18 AM

Rogues have great pve dps, can be amazing tanks, and are a required support class for raids.  What else do you want besides PvP balance?


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #125 on: September 23, 2011, 09:12:33 AM

So Draegan, on a scale of 1 to 10 how retarded/useless is the Trion Rogue Dev?  No wonder rogues have sucked so long, f'ing idiot doesnt have a clue and most likely doesnt even play the dam class / game at all. 

Whoever is in charge of rogues has been pretty damn clueless since Alpha in August of last year.
Nebu
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Reply #126 on: September 23, 2011, 09:16:13 AM

Whoever is in charge of rogues has been pretty damn clueless since Alpha in August of last year.

I could say the same about the mage lead.  Outside of pvp, mages haven't been the best at anything beyond ae trash killing. 

2nd best healer, 4th best single target dps, and maybe the best buffer... but archon is stupid boring to play.   Granted, mages are quite fun to solo. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Draegan
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Reply #127 on: September 23, 2011, 09:17:52 AM

Rogues have great pve dps, can be amazing tanks, and are a required support class for raids.  What else do you want besides PvP balance?



You are pretty much completely wrong.  

Rogue dps is behind warriors of equal gear from 200-500 dps (which is anywhere from 10-30%) depending on the fight and it's mechanics.  Apparently, but I'm not witness to this, warriors are still 100-300 dps ahead of rogues on the PTS.  But I can't vouch for that statement as it comes from sources I really don't trust.

Rogues can not tank any encounter in Hammerknell at any gear level.  When I say can not, I mean that they take 35-50% more damage than a Warrior of equal or lesser gear.  A rogue can be in full HK gear and not be able to tank entry level encounter while a Warrior or Cleric in HK entry level gear can easily do it.  

Rogues "support" is pretty shit but it's required.  You need someone with 51pts in bard to hit the same 5 buttons every 30 seconds and the rest of the time just sit there and do either 400 dps or spam a cadence heal spell that really isn't necessary.

If you want more detail than that, let me know.

Draegan
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Reply #128 on: September 23, 2011, 09:20:09 AM

Whoever is in charge of rogues has been pretty damn clueless since Alpha in August of last year.

I could say the same about the mage lead.  Outside of pvp, mages haven't been the best at anything beyond ae trash killing. 

2nd best healer, 4th best single target dps, and maybe the best buffer... but archon is stupid boring to play.   Granted, mages are quite fun to solo. 

Mages are in an odd place right now.  They have so many required quirky specs to defeat encounters in HK.  Their single target dps is really hard to get to, but you can reach high numbers if you can master an extremely difficult and complicated rotation.  The average person probably isn't doing this.

Also, they do have the best ranged dps in the game which is quite often required in some encounters.  But yeah, they could use some help in sustained PVE dps.  They aren't really competitive in some instances.
Nebu
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Reply #129 on: September 23, 2011, 09:21:25 AM

I never raided HK, so I am admittedly ignorant about it.  What I stated was the truth when I stopped playing/raiding PvE. 

I am glad to know things have evolved... that's a step in the right direction.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #130 on: September 23, 2011, 11:58:11 AM

Rogues have great pve dps, can be amazing tanks, and are a required support class for raids.  What else do you want besides PvP balance?



I couldnt give a crap about PvE, Its the PvP balance I want and the rogue dev is an idiot who doesnt appear to even play / know his own class hes responsible for
Sky
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Reply #131 on: September 23, 2011, 01:25:22 PM

Its the PvP balance I want

There's no such thing as pvp balance, unless you dumb it down to simplistic gameplay and remove all level and gear inequalities. So, good luck with that.

They have so many required quirky specs to defeat encounters in HK.  Their single target dps is really hard to get to, but you can reach high numbers if you can master an extremely difficult and complicated rotation. 
That's the kind of thing I dislike, when mmo gets to the point where you need x,y,z and the game gets tuned to that. Especially with the inclusion of macros to the point where they're also considered standard when tuning. So the regular joe who is just playing for fun, even with an otherwise decent build, just isn't going to cut it. I think as a game designer for a massive game, if you've excluded a lot of your audience (or at best restricted them to the blessed path), you've failed.

Of course, I'm also not naive enough to think this will ever change because of the rampant QQ of the hardcore  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 01:29:21 PM by Sky »

Shatter
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Reply #132 on: September 23, 2011, 01:49:42 PM

I know there isnt perfect PvP balance but 1 class getting rolled by all others at high end PvP should be a pretty good clue something needs to change.  Also I wouldnt care if the dumbass could at least get the specs right for DPS builds, is that really asking too much?
Trippy
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Reply #133 on: September 27, 2011, 10:36:42 PM

Shatter
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Reply #134 on: September 28, 2011, 06:13:46 AM

About dam time
Sky
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Reply #135 on: September 28, 2011, 12:16:48 PM

I think I made two, maybe three levels (42? 43?) in the three weeks I've been subbed. It's pure grind logging in and leveling to 50 at this point.

Nebu
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Reply #136 on: September 28, 2011, 01:26:52 PM

I think I made two, maybe three levels (42? 43?) in the three weeks I've been subbed. It's pure grind logging in and leveling to 50 at this point.

Here's a tip:

1) PvP when quests get to you.  The 40-49 bracket is a lot of fun.

2) Head to Shimmersand and Stillmoor and follow the zerg during events.  If you join the rift raid, the xp is quite good. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Threash
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Reply #137 on: September 28, 2011, 03:28:32 PM

This patch rocks.  I soloed both chronicles as a rogue in rank 3 gear.  Edit: the only challenging fight was oracle.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:01:33 PM by Threash »

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Shatter
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Reply #138 on: September 28, 2011, 09:49:36 PM

This patch rocks.  I soloed both chronicles as a rogue in rank 3 gear.  Edit: the only challenging fight was oracle.

Yeah Im liking it too.  Rogues are definitely better in PvP, just need to work out my specs.   I did all chronicles solo with my rank 7 rogue pretty easily.  I had saved up quests for this patch and used my 50% xp pot and got 2 attunement upgrades tonight alone. 
Threash
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Reply #139 on: September 29, 2011, 06:10:20 AM

Oh yeah the veteran rewards rock too, having 30 hours of 100% extra exp might even get me to roll another alt.

I am the .00000001428%
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