McDonalds will KILL you!

[Sand]

http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/news/2011-09-08/woman-dies-after-sickened-fumes-mcdonalds

POOLER, Ga. — An 80-year-old Florida woman died early Thursday a day after being sickened by fumes at a McDonald’s restaurant in south Georgia, police said. Anne Felton, of Ponte Vedra, Fla., and her husband were customers at the restaurant in Pooler, near Savannah, Police Chief Mark Revenew said. An autopsy is being conducted to learn the cause of death. Felton was one of 10 people taken to the hospital Wednesday after firefighters found her and another customer, 56-year-old Carol Barry, unconscious in the bathroom and others struggling to breathe. Eight people were taken to a hospital, treated and released. Felton and Barry were admitted to the hospital in critical condition. Barry was listed in good condition Thursday, said Memorial University Medical Center spokesman Michael Notrica.
Authorities initially suspected that cleaning chemicals in the restroom were to blame, but Fire Chief Wade Simmons said Thursday that after the investigation was completed there was no evidence that was the case. “We were unable to find a definitive cause,” he said. “We may not ever know.”
 

[Cyrrex]

Must be terrorism.  Of course, we'd probably all be better off with them targeting McDonalds.

[Paelos]

Taget Walmart too.

[Yegolev]

McDonald's is merely trying to annoy me to death.  Trying to run nfs server on Win2k3, bah.  Although I suppose it's not strictly McD or Walmart, more due to who provides their soda.

[luckton]

They finished the autopsy.  Apparently there was a carbon dioxide leak from the soda machine that was building up in the walls, and eventually broke into the bathrooms.

So there's that. 

[ezrast]

So SODA will kill you.

In addition to giving you cancer.

[Sand]

And rotting your teeth!

[Merusk]

So SODA will kill you.

In addition to giving you cancer.

Well.. technically the building's design was what allowed the co2 from the soda machine to build-up.  So it was the McDonalds that killed him, just that it was the building and not the food. 

[Sheepherder]

They finished the autopsy.  Apparently there was a carbon dioxide leak from the soda machine that was building up in the walls, and eventually broke into the bathrooms.

So there's that. 

That makes no fucking sense.

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, wait...what will an abundance of CO2 even do to you (assuming it doesn't explode your face off)?

[luckton]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/mcdonalds-death-gas_n_963971.html

Carbon dioxide piped through gas lines to a soda fountain leaked in a McDonald's in Georgia and sickened 10 people, including a woman who later died after being found unconscious in a restroom, police said Wednesday.

Investigators determined a leaky gas line between the walls caused the gas, used to pump carbonation into sodas, to build up a week ago to the point where people inside were unable to breathe.

"It caused what is normally a harmless gas to be pumped into the wall cavity and leak into the women's restroom," said Pooler Police Chief Mark Revenew. "At a high level of concentration, it displaces oxygen."

I'm not saying I'm a science guy, but, yeah, with enough CO2 built up, it could do that.  I smell lawsuit 

[Cyrrex]

Okay, but when you go into a place where you can't breath oxygen, shouldn't you just leave?  I mean, you would have a bit of time, and surely you would notice?

[luckton]

Okay, but when you go into a place where you can't breath oxygen, shouldn't you just leave?  I mean, you would have a bit of time, and surely you would notice?

Ever have a CO2 fire extinguisher go off in your face?

[apocrypha]

CO2 is *not* a harmless gas. It's toxic at anything above a few %. 10% CO2 will quickly knock you out and you'll then suffocate to death. The normal concentration of CO2 in air is about 0.04%.

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

[Selby]

Okay, but when you go into a place where you can't breath oxygen, shouldn't you just leave?  I mean, you would have a bit of time, and surely you would notice?

That assumes that the concentration was high enough to notice right away.  And if you walk into a room and start coughing\having trouble breathing, some people might write that off as allergies or something being in the air irritating you.  It doesn't take too long to run out of oxygen, especially if the soda lines were pressurized and constantly leaking while the people were in there.  It displaces the oxygen so what could start out as a "slightly noticeable" level of CO2 could end up with deadly levels quickly, especially if the people weren't aware.

[Cyrrex]

Okay, that all makes more sense.  I was responding to the idea that it was simple suffocation that could have been avoided.  Thanks, internetpoisongasexperts.

[Sheepherder]

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

Rebreathing air without scrubbing is hypoxia and hypercapnia simultaneously.  Bathrooms are not airtight.  Hypercapnia is accompanied by symptoms which would immediately make an old woman start shrieking that she's having a heart attack.  According to the EPA the concentration for it to be almost immediately fatal is something to the tune of 17%.  If you were in the room at the point where 17% of the volume of air was expelled by CO₂ you would probably notice.  If you merely walked into it the first thought in your mind would be "holy fuck my eyes are burning it's time to go."

[ghost]

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

Rebreathing air without scrubbing is hypoxia and hypercapnia simultaneously.  Bathrooms are not airtight.  Hypercapnia is accompanied by symptoms which would immediately make an old woman start shrieking that she's having a heart attack.  According to the EPA the concentration for it to be almost immediately fatal is something to the tune of 17%.  If you were in the room at the point where 17% of the volume of air was expelled by CO₂ you would probably notice.  If you merely walked into it the first thought in your mind would be "holy fuck my eyes are burning it's time to go."

One would have to assume that this lady wasn't completely healthy to start with.  That throws a lot of the normal reactions you might expect out the window.

[Ingmar]

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

Rebreathing air without scrubbing is hypoxia and hypercapnia simultaneously.  Bathrooms are not airtight.  Hypercapnia is accompanied by symptoms which would immediately make an old woman start shrieking that she's having a heart attack.  According to the EPA the concentration for it to be almost immediately fatal is something to the tune of 17%.  If you were in the room at the point where 17% of the volume of air was expelled by CO₂ you would probably notice.  If you merely walked into it the first thought in your mind would be "holy fuck my eyes are burning it's time to go."

It wasn't immediately fatal, she passed out and died later.

[ghost]

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

Rebreathing air without scrubbing is hypoxia and hypercapnia simultaneously.  Bathrooms are not airtight.  Hypercapnia is accompanied by symptoms which would immediately make an old woman start shrieking that she's having a heart attack.  According to the EPA the concentration for it to be almost immediately fatal is something to the tune of 17%.  If you were in the room at the point where 17% of the volume of air was expelled by CO₂ you would probably notice.  If you merely walked into it the first thought in your mind would be "holy fuck my eyes are burning it's time to go."

It wasn't immediately fatal, she passed out and died later.

She was 80.  She might not even have passed out from the effects of the gas.  Well at least not the CO2.

[Sheepherder]

It wasn't immediately fatal, she passed out and died later.

Except, as I said before, that makes no fucking sense.  You don't not notice massive CO₂ sats any more than you would fail to notice any other environment that would over the course of minutes cause your tears and mucous to turn into acid; your heart rate to increase significantly; your entire body to sweat profusely; dizziness; a rapid increase in respiratory rate; and a blinding headache.  Most 80 year olds experiencing such symptoms would probably assume that they are having a heart attack or stroke and would seek help immediately.  In fact, what's happening is that the body uses the presence of CO₂ to regulate breathing, and that most of the symptoms of oxygen starvation are actually caused by high CO₂ saturation.  So, effectively, high CO₂ sats cause the sensation of strangulation to occur long before your body is actually oxygen deprived.

You also don't get CO₂ accumulation in the blood beyond the atmospheric concentration present, and high saturated CO₂ actually increases the rate at which you off-gas CO₂.  So anything that is insufficient to kill you is just going to make you excruciatingly uncomfortable until you leave, and then shit will turn normal almost immediately after you're removed from that environment.

[Ingmar]

I find it fascinating that you're an expert on how 80 year olds react to things, in addition to all your many other talents.

[Pennilenko]

I find it fascinating that you're an expert on how 80 year olds react to things, in addition to all your many other talents.

It's the internet man. Don't  you know the internet makes people an expert on everything?

[Sheepherder]

There is also very good reason to suspect that the elderly react to high CO₂ sats just the same as everyone else: if they didn't, they would die of "forgetting" to breath (technically it's an autonomic nervous system function, specifically the medulla, but you probably get the point).

[Ingmar]

 

[Sand]

It wasn't immediately fatal, she passed out and died later.

Except, as I said before, that makes no fucking sense. 

You would think most people who are choking to death would rush around to get help from someone like a friend, family member or by stander.
But they dont.
Most EMT's will tell you that a high percentage of women who succumb to choking and die are found alone in bathrooms by themselves.
They go there because they started coughing at the table, excused themselves to the bathroom so as not to be rude, then died when the object completely lodged and blocked their airway.


Why didnt they run out of the bathroom before succumbing to asphyxiation? 
Makes no sense. World is a strange place. 

[MahrinSkel]

Obviously something was different from your expectations in this case, because an old woman stayed there long enough to die as a result.  Maybe she already had compromised breathing, maybe she had some form of dementia and didn't realize what was happening, maybe she broke a hip trying to get out.

--Dave

[apocrypha]

What are you saying Sheepherder?

Are you saying that you don't believe this news story? That it's a lie? Or are you saying that the reported CO2 leak and buildup clearly had nothing to do with the death of this 80 year old woman?

Or are you just pointlessly arguing on the internet for the sake of it?

[Sheepherder]

They hospitalized ten people.  That's really not something I'd expect if it was just a large carbon dioxide leak.  I don't know about you, but if I walked into the shitter and seconds later felt like I was in mid-sprint while my eyes felt like they had soda water splashed into them I would turn right the fuck around and walk away.

EDIT: I would guess that something else has also occurred here.  From the sounds of it the other people experienced prolonged effects, and that is in no way, shape, or form characteristic of carbon dioxide at all.

[apocrypha]

Investigators initially suspected customers fell ill to noxious fumes from cleaning chemicals. An autopsy found no trace of chemicals in Felton, Revenew said, but it indicated she succumbed to asphyxiation.

(Felton is the woman who died, Revenew is the local police chief)

I honestly don't get why you're all tinfoil about this particular story.

We know nothing about the concentrations of CO2 that built up in that restroom. We know nothing about the woman who died other than that she was 80 years old. We know nothing about the other people who were taken to hospital, other than the fact that 8 out of 10 of them were released the same day.

What is sounds like is that CO2 built up a bit, it made some people feel a bit ill. One unfortunate 80 year old actually passed out - for which there could be any number of contributory factors, given that she was 80 years old - and died. Not knowing what had happened or what the danger was several people were taken to hospital as a precaution, a couple of whom we kept in a for a bit longer than the majority who were released very quickly.

What's the confusion? What's even the basis for a discussion here? The autopsy indicated death by asphyxiation -  who knows if the CO2 was even the primary cause for her passing out or not, she was 80 years old!

I really, really don't get the here.

[Sheepherder]

It's very irregular.  The EPA has put out a report dealing with firefighting systems, and the answer is  about 2-3 people die due to CO₂ asphyxiation annually worldwide, usually when they're working on a total flooding firefighting system in an (airtight) confined space.

[ghost]

Obviously something was different from your expectations in this case, because an old woman stayed there long enough to die as a result.  Maybe she already had compromised breathing, maybe she had some form of dementia and didn't realize what was happening, maybe she broke a hip trying to get out.

--Dave

I read that she ran a marathon just prior to taking a shit at McDonald's.   

[ezrast]

My friend's cousin told me it was a conspiracy set up by Burger King and Pepsi.

[Lantyssa]

Dude, she was EIGHTY YEARS OLD.  A lot of 80 year olds can barely walk.  It was probably a low enough concentration that it wasn't immediately noticeable to an 80 year old woman.  She felt tired, or had trouble breathing, and probably had enough difficulty getting around on a good day that not being able to breath meant she couldn't even stand.

Yeah, it's irregular.  Guess what?  She's number 1 of the few people a year who die of CO₂.  Have there already been three, so no one else is allowed to die this way?

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy.

[bhodi]

"I don't feel so good, let me sit down for a moment". Yeah, that could never happen.